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SkullCowboy_60

Bot AI Update for 0.10.6

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image.png.37d215c6abaa366fa2cf774e3baa6288.png

Interesting. I was pretty sure they could and did adjust speed to avoid torps (slamming the brakes or speeding up). But not grounding so often? Only time will tell.

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12 minutes ago, SkullCowboy_60 said:

image.png.37d215c6abaa366fa2cf774e3baa6288.png

Interesting. I was pretty sure they could and did adjust speed to avoid torps (slamming the brakes or speeding up). But not grounding so often? Only time will tell.

Currently they just initiate course changes, if locked on to them when torpedoes are launched.

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Just now, HamptonRoads said:

Unnecessary ramming into the enemy is still an option.

Bots still want XP.

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1 hour ago, SkullCowboy_60 said:

image.png.37d215c6abaa366fa2cf774e3baa6288.png

Interesting. I was pretty sure they could and did adjust speed to avoid torps (slamming the brakes or speeding up). But not grounding so often? Only time will tell.

Yeah, bots now change course and speed all the time (red and green), torps or no torps.

Edit:  I will take a colliding with islands fix.  Nothing worse than having to sail for 3 minutes at the end of the game to get to the one bot that stuck himself out of sight of everyone.

Edited by DrHolmes52
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1 hour ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Currently they just initiate course changes, if locked on to them when torpedoes are launched.

I don't think so......  Last night I was tracking several bots in my Benham and each of them were doing the speed up and slow down gimmick.  Mostly when being fired at with guns....  You could actually watch it at work........"ok, he's now a 5 reticle lead and he's speeding up again to max at 15 reticle lead...."   All night long.  I blind fired torps to see what would happen if I anticipate where a bot was going and it seemed to make no difference in bot behavior....   The bots were 'reacting' to reticle movement crossing their approach..........as I settle my reticle on approaching ships, the one's in-range would immediately start to turn if my reticle stopped on them.....  So, I've been holding off shooting till the bots engage the turn, since they can't change the physics of a turn !  More hits that way; especially, with pew-pew ships......(you don't waste the first salvo !)

Anyway, if they do start "anticipating torpedoes" with significant speed changes, more to the better..........!

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This is probably an effort to reduce the influence of torpedo-destroyers in co-op.  

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The speed up/slow down doesn't really have any effect for me in a DD. I am in smoke, and when they get close enough, I just let lose with the torps, or they die from my guns. I guess it would matter if you are doing long range torping, but I never do that. :Smile_smile: I AM happy to see that WG is taking an interest in improving PvE gaming, though. That's a good sign. 

Edited by Deputy276
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1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

I don't think so......  Last night I was tracking several bots in my Benham and each of them were doing the speed up and slow down gimmick.  Mostly when being fired at with guns....  You could actually watch it at work........"ok, he's now a 5 reticle lead and he's speeding up again to max at 15 reticle lead...."   All night long.  I blind fired torps to see what would happen if I anticipate where a bot was going and it seemed to make no difference in bot behavior....   The bots were 'reacting' to reticle movement crossing their approach..........as I settle my reticle on approaching ships, the one's in-range would immediately start to turn if my reticle stopped on them.....  So, I've been holding off shooting till the bots engage the turn, since they can't change the physics of a turn !  More hits that way; especially, with pew-pew ships......(you don't waste the first salvo !)

Anyway, if they do start "anticipating torpedoes" with significant speed changes, more to the better..........!

Sometimes i wonder if they sneak in higher or better AIs.

Ive seen gunboat dds smoke up, and stop moving before they began pewpewing everything in sight. Watching a player N Carolina burn down to ground because of it was sad, and i felt bad for laughing :(

Ive seen bot BBs and Cruisers also turn tail and begin kitting. Not towards any point or any player either. Do they dodge? no. But it does make the game longer when you are running a Scharnhorst down in a Minnesota.

Thats only began happening in the last few patches too, its not common but it sure has been odd to see. Not complaining either it makes it a bit more fun. Just wish we had more targets to shoot at..specially in 4..or 5 dd games :(

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23 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Sometimes i wonder if they sneak in higher or better AIs.

Ive seen gunboat dds smoke up, and stop moving before they began pewpewing everything in sight. Watching a player N Carolina burn down to ground because of it was sad, and i felt bad for laughing :(

Ive seen bot BBs and Cruisers also turn tail and begin kitting. Not towards any point or any player either. Do they dodge? no. But it does make the game longer when you are running a Scharnhorst down in a Minnesota.

Thats only began happening in the last few patches too, its not common but it sure has been odd to see. Not complaining either it makes it a bit more fun. Just wish we had more targets to shoot at..specially in 4..or 5 dd games :(

I have to believe our host has been "tinkering" with PVE for over a year trying to figure out how the push PVE mains to PVP.   The 2x7 Bug was a marketing test; to see, if they could "force a migration" to PVP as PVE mains simply didn't want to lose or be defeated in TT non-OP ships.   Then, the "I love 2x7's" jumped in to........how to put this: "put the nail in the freaking coffin" because, they were all over the place screaming for even more 2x7's.....  Yep, they really screwed up there !!!

So, it's been months of seeing all of which you have observed....  The stop-and-go has been around for quite a while.  Torpedo dodging even longer; to include dodges that I or you could never do !  Now, the "exploit" they are using is the 5 DD super short game to discourage even playing COOP..........because, what's the point if there is no "real value" anymore.  

Our host wants PVE gone - yesterday:  because of the costs of maintaining the PVE content and infrastructure....  If they were smart, they'd take a couple of months and actually "talk to us" and work with us to make the entire process good and "profitable" for both parties.  Versus, all of the subterfuge and tinkering they think we don't see........  It is costing them a fortune and they really, just "can't see the Forrest, through the Trees" it seems........

Edited by Asym_KS
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7 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I have to believe our host has been "tinkering" with PVE for over a year trying to figure out how the push PVE mains to PVP.   The 2x7 Bug was a marketing test; to see, if they could "force a migration" to PVP as PVE mains simply didn't want to lose or be defeated in TT non-OP ships.   Then, the "I love 2x7's" jumped in to........how to put this: "put the nail in the freaking coffin" because, they were all over the place screaming for even more 2x7's.....  Yep, they really screwed up there !!!

So, it's been months of seeing all of which you have observed....  The stop-and-go has been around for quite a while.  Torpedo dodging even longer; to include dodges that I or you could never do !  Now, the "exploit" they are using is the 5 DD super short game to discourage even playing COOP..........because, what's the point if there is no "real value" anymore.  

Our host wants PVE gone - yesterday:  because of the costs of maintaining the PVE content and infrastructure....  If they were smart, they'd take a couple of months and actually "talk to us" and work with us to make the entire process good and "profitable" for both parties.  Versus, all of the subterfuge and tinkering they think we don't see........  It is costing them a fortune and they really, just "can't see the Forrest, through the Trees" it seems........

Eh..i have my doubts thats the case. I agree though, that it would be way better for them to talk to PVE mains about the game, cause ill be gone if they ever close COOP down, or make it unfun for me entirely, and im one probably one of the biggest whales playing >.>

 

If they really wanted coop gone, they wouldnt have started making campaigns complete-able in all modes, or add more and missions that can be done in coop. The flag change also benefited coop players more than most random players.

 

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I don't see this changing anything. Bots already have hack torpedo dodging skills which already makes preemptive torpedoing a waste of time. It doesn't matter if the bot changes speed when you deliver a full rack into their broadside.

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If this clears up the problem of bots running into islands (Raptor Rescue,) I wonder if this will also clear up problems with the auto-pilot.

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2 hours ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Eh..i have my doubts thats the case. I agree though, that it would be way better for them to talk to PVE mains about the game, cause ill be gone if they ever close COOP down, or make it unfun for me entirely, and im one probably one of the biggest whales playing >.>

If they really wanted coop gone, they wouldnt have started making campaigns complete-able in all modes, or add more and missions that can be done in coop. The flag change also benefited coop players more than most random players.

What you says makes sense but, history is more about a long process versus throwing a switch.  Some games took 3 or 4 years to eliminate modes they couldn't afford.  Our host wants on platform the create an eSales paradigm.....  One server to rule them all and PVP is where the money and focus is:  eSports and NACE....  NCAA ruling about athlete pay makes the NACE venture even more lucrative.   Locally, we actually have a professional, eSports team.....  Our NACE efforts hired a Coach (the job description I posted for all to read about last year) and they have 300+ players.....  Whom, when I was interacting with that program, were spending at least a $100 per month on games.....most others, substantially more.  All in eCurrency - plastic.

Our game isn't even on the demo list and hasn't been for years......  So, since this is a small niche game, small niche paradigms apply.   One of those historical kind of things is an economy devaluation hidden within a skill tree change !  That, I've posted about several times because  --  history repeats itself.   There are "very few" new ideas in Video Games.....  And, the future, AI is so disruptive and expensive, that it won't be seen anytime soon ! 

So, here we are.  Slow changes are all our host can afford.   They can't simply turn the PVE servers off;...................because, player just like you have said:  "ill be gone if they ever close COOP down, or make it unfun for me entirely, and im one probably one of the biggest whales playing....."    And, so it goes.........change is.........inevitable.

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43 minutes ago, Beleaf_ said:

I don't see this changing anything. Bots already have hack torpedo dodging skills which already makes preemptive torpedoing a waste of time. It doesn't matter if the bot changes speed when you deliver a full rack into their broadside.

It's kind of weird.  The bots are either Yuro wearing Hammer Pants.

Image result for mc hammer gif

Or have the situational awareness of Jethro Bodine.

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6 hours ago, HamptonRoads said:

This is probably an effort to reduce the influence of torpedo-destroyers in co-op.  

IMO it doesn't matter, because long range torp drops even in Co-Op are unreliable.  The optimal torpedo attacks are very short range torpedo runs.  The closer the better, particularly if the torps aren't fast to begin with.  That's where you see the DD players light it up with high hit %, devastating attack runs.

 

Depends on how this is done when it goes Live, the bot AI change will be a bigger deal to CV players in Co-Op.  CVs in this mode of play already suck.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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8 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

....., since they can't change the physics of a turn !  More hits that way; especially, with pew-pew ships......(

Hmm...... I'm not so sure 'bout that.....

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51 minutes ago, Bandi73 said:

Hmm...... I'm not so sure 'bout that.....

What I meant is that when a ship turns, they lose speed.  That opens up the engagement window.  The faster the turn, the more speed the speed loses....  It's in that small window, a lot of fast ships are vulnerable to concentrated fire....

Well, that's the theory anyway - reality in a game is based on..........not reality.

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12 hours ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Currently they just initiate course changes, if locked on to them when torpedoes are launched.

Not just course changes but S turns with unbelievable rudder shift times. BBs doing S turns and pirouettes and dodging a dozen torpedoes from multiple directions and not losing speed. WG is just admitting they have already implemented speed changes . I have already seen bots speed up and slow down to dodge torps for quite a while.

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14 hours ago, SkullCowboy_60 said:

image.png.37d215c6abaa366fa2cf774e3baa6288.png

Interesting. I was pretty sure they could and did adjust speed to avoid torps (slamming the brakes or speeding up). But not grounding so often? Only time will tell.

 

Interesting it seems wargaming might be spying on me while playing the Kaga in coop  :Smile_hiding: 

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21 hours ago, SkullCowboy_60 said:

image.png.37d215c6abaa366fa2cf774e3baa6288.png

Interesting. I was pretty sure they could and did adjust speed to avoid torps (slamming the brakes or speeding up). But not grounding so often? Only time will tell.

Someone should tell WG they already do this.

If they can get the bots not to get stuck on the islands would be nice.

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My first thought was "Great, now they'll dodge my torps even faster". I can't hit them unless I'm within 2 kms.

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On 6/23/2021 at 6:58 AM, HamptonRoads said:

This is probably an effort to reduce the influence of torpedo-destroyers in co-op.  

It does affect ships with slow torps quite a bit. Pure guess what the lead needs to be. Even medium range shots.

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On 6/23/2021 at 2:01 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IMO it doesn't matter, because long range torp drops even in Co-Op are unreliable.  The optimal torpedo attacks are very short range torpedo runs.  The closer the better, particularly if the torps aren't fast to begin with.  That's where you see the DD players light it up with high hit %, devastating attack runs.

 

Depends on how this is done when it goes Live, the bot AI change will be a bigger deal to CV players in Co-Op.  CVs in this mode of play already suck.

This exactly. PvE is the WORST place to learn how to do long range torping. It simply doesn't work because the bots "see" those torps and have plenty of time to duck and dodge. If you are going to play DDs in PvE successfully,  then you need to learn how to get VERY close to the enemy, and then let lose with torps. What I generally do (unless there is a kill thief close on my tail), is go full speed forward until I spot an enemy DD in front of me. They usually smoke up first, so it's not hard. Then immediately turn broadside, pop smoke, and start shooting the DD. My guns have been pre-positioned, because I plan in advance what side I will present to the bot DD. I usually sink the bot DD with guns (using HE), unless there is a kill thief that takes him. Then I go full speed towards the nearest CL or BB and torp him. So there are 2 surefire kills right away. If I have a fast reload and lots of health left, I'll hide behind an island until reloaded and go for kill #3.  

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1 hour ago, Deputy276 said:

This exactly. PvE is the WORST place to learn how to do long range torping. It simply doesn't work because the bots "see" those torps and have plenty of time to duck and dodge. If you are going to play DDs in PvE successfully,  then you need to learn how to get VERY close to the enemy, and then let lose with torps. What I generally do (unless there is a kill thief close on my tail), is go full speed forward until I spot an enemy DD in front of me. They usually smoke up first, so it's not hard. Then immediately turn broadside, pop smoke, and start shooting the DD. My guns have been pre-positioned, because I plan in advance what side I will present to the bot DD. I usually sink the bot DD with guns (using HE), unless there is a kill thief that takes him. Then I go full speed towards the nearest CL or BB and torp him. So there are 2 surefire kills right away. If I have a fast reload and lots of health left, I'll hide behind an island until reloaded and go for kill #3.  

In addition, bots never seem to maintain speed and heading.  They speed up, slow down, turn left or right.  If you pay attention at the start of the match, your bots seem like the most indecisive people on the planet.

The only time I have had success with long range torping is when you don't have the target selected when you drop torps.

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