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lbfreitasBR

ZF-6, AP vs HE

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In @LittleWhiteMouse review of the ZF-6, it says the following:

"I think it's safe to say that ZF-6's AP shells are not the best choice when fighting destroyers."

I've been calculating the average damage from hits with ZF-6 (against other DDs), and I've come to the conclusion that it's best to use AP in almost any situation, against any target. I have been only switching to HE when the other DD is running away (when it gets too angled).

I made a simple calculation, dividing number of hits by total damage dealt. Minimum of 10 hits. In the last game I saw the replay to check exactly what each hit was (the last two items with AP):

AP: 440, 637, 565, 487, 406, 599, 434, 622, 610, 399, 676, 420 (vs Blyska: 16 overpens, 4 pens), 562 (vs ZF-6: 5 overpens, 6 pens, 2 ricochets); HE: 350, 456, 304, 466, 301, 385, 358.

(In a test in the training room, against a broadside and stationary Gearing, the average damage with AP was 776).

Almost always AP delivers more damage. So, as fire damage on DDs is usually small, I have found AP to be better, except when chances to get ricochets are high.

Most of the fights DDs are maneuvering, therefore, with reasonable chances of getting full pens, even if there are overpens throughout the fight. I have found it better than trying to use AP only under "ideal" conditions.

Am I leaving something out?


 

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HE blast damage versus modules?

I don’t trust destroyer AP versus other destroyers. I’ve seen the sparks from ricochets and pathetic damage amounts from overpens float up, and the failure of destroyer health bars to reduce in any meaningful way, too many times to ever believe it’s of any use in that situation; even against fatties like Khab and some of the Germans.

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37 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

HE blast damage versus modules?

I don’t trust destroyer AP versus other destroyers. I’ve seen the sparks from ricochets and pathetic damage amounts from overpens float up, and the failure of destroyer health bars to reduce in any meaningful way, too many times to ever believe it’s of any use in that situation; even against fatties like Khab and some of the Germans.

Yes, you're right.

My point is: MBRB turned on, I want to do as much damage in the shortest time possible.

ZF-6 HE damage is so anemic, that, for this end, AP seems better to me.

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3 hours ago, lbfreitasBR said:

ZF-6 HE damage is so anemic, that, for this end, AP seems better to me.

ZF-6 HE 0.33x penetration DPM:  35,888
ZF-6 AP 0.1x overpenetration DPM:  22,125
ZF-6 HE 0.165x saturated penetration DPM: 17,944

If you can't aim (and keep plinking DD butts or snoots) then AP will be more consistent.  But well aimed HE (centre of mass) is higher damage.  And it breaks modules within a blast radius instead of just what it hits.  And it starts fires.

 

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5 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

ZF-6 HE 0.33x penetration DPM:  35,888
ZF-6 AP 0.1x overpenetration DPM:  22,125
ZF-6 HE 0.165x saturated penetration DPM: 17,944

If you can't aim (and keep plinking DD butts or snoots) then AP will be more consistent.  But well aimed HE (centre of mass) is higher damage.  And it breaks modules within a blast radius instead of just what it hits.  And it starts fires.

 

What about the new German 150mm guns?

Also, you’d get the odd pen with AP would that make much of a difference?

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So what would you use in the typical DD knifefight where the angles keep changing and half the time you will have the wrong ammo loaded? (and there is a good chance the opponent has better maneuverability)

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20 minutes ago, Bortt said:

What about the new German 150mm guns?

Also, you’d get the odd pen with AP would that make much of a difference?

AP only works consistently well in "perfect" scenarios.  The big issue with the German 150mm is the need for 25mm worth of steel in order to arm.  Against a 19mm hull of a destroyer, you need them to be angled at about 52º to 55º from the perpendicular in order for the shells to arm properly.  This gives a very small window where their AP shells can arm without ricocheting. 

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For ZF-6 I would almost always use HE in a DD brawl, as any DD skilled enough to threaten you will angle against your AP anyways. 

 

For the 150mm guns it depends on which DD you are up against and if they are angling - since a lot of DD players will give you about 30 degrees to use all their guns you can get full pens with the 150mm guns, especially against Gearing, the other Higher-Tier Germans and the Khab. 

Remember as well that even though the shell can arm it might still overpen - the shells on F. Schultz and Elbing are more than fast enough to overpen each other at close range when flat broadside, but give a slight angle and you get easy full pens. 

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15 minutes ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

ZF-6 HE 0.33x penetration DPM:  35,888
ZF-6 AP 0.1x overpenetration DPM:  22,125
ZF-6 HE 0.165x saturated penetration DPM: 17,944

If you can't aim (and keep plinking DD butts or snoots) then AP will be more consistent.  But well aimed HE (centre of mass) is higher damage.  And it breaks modules within a blast radius instead of just what it hits.  And it starts fires.

 

But you don't get only overpens, right? It a mix of full pens and overpens (with the exact mix being different each fight).

Each ZF-6 HE shell can do a maximum damage of 493, right? So if I'm able to get anything better than this with AP (not taking into account modules damaged or fires), AP is better. And the numbers I'm getting are usually better than 493. That's my point.

 

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6 minutes ago, lbfreitasBR said:

But you don't get only overpens, right? It a mix of full pens and overpens (with the exact mix being different each fight). 

Each ZF-6 HE shell can do a maximum damage of 493, right? So if I'm able to get anything better than this with AP (not taking into account modules damaged or fires), AP is better. And the numbers I'm getting are usually better than 493. That's my point. 

You can get full penetrating hits, if your opponent obliges you.  You're banking on that if.  HE's numbers are a lot more reliable.  It's risk/reward but it's stacking a long list of "ifs".  For safe money, use HE on destroyers, always. For advanced play, IF the angle is right and IF the target is the right tier and IF you can get the shells loaded and IF you can land the hits into the destroyer's centre of mass, then yes, the occasional AP volley will generate higher numbers in that specific scenario.

But I stress:  You are not stacking much in the way of module damage as you would with HE.  Nor are you screwing with their surface detection with fires.

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

So what would you use in the typical DD knifefight where the angles keep changing and half the time you will have the wrong ammo loaded? (and there is a good chance the opponent has better maneuverability)

What I am saying is that in typical DD knifefight, I am getting better results with AP. Even with overpens mixed with full pens. 

But, surely, not with ricochets.

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I tend to use AP against DDs only if I'm in Jutland or Daring. With these I'm confident enough in knowing the angles at which they work, that they do pen vs. 19mm, and that they'll give me higher damage per salvo vs. HE (note: I also always forget that Akizuki and Kitakaze can also arm against DDs...).

The caveat that you're not breaking modules and starting fires is absolutely true and a huge part of the trade-off. I use AP when I need rapid damage, not when I need DOT. For DD I think it makes sense, I want to end the fight early. If I'm farming though, it's HE all the way until fires are set.

 

ZF6's AP is good but requires just enough arming that it'd be tricky to use against Destroyers. She has decent reload even without the booster (3.34 with reload Upgrade and MAAS), so the way I see it is simple: HE vs. DD with booster, AP vs. anything remotely broadside that's not a DD.

If the DD is slightly angled, I may try AP, especially if it's a free salvo. It's as much intelligence gathering as actual damage output.

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5 hours ago, LittleWhiteMouse said:

You can get full penetrating hits, if your opponent obliges you.  You're banking on that if.  HE's numbers are a lot more reliable.  It's risk/reward but it's stacking a long list of "ifs".  For safe money, use HE on destroyers, always. For advanced play, IF the angle is right and IF the target is the right tier and IF you can get the shells loaded and IF you can land the hits into the destroyer's centre of mass, then yes, the occasional AP volley will generate higher numbers in that specific scenario.

But I stress:  You are not stacking much in the way of module damage as you would with HE.  Nor are you screwing with their surface detection with fires.

To add about the points on setting Fires on a DD:

"Ships on fire have their surface detection range increased by 2.0 km and their aerial detection radius increased by 3.0 km. This is particularly noteworthy for destroyer captains."

(Source)

It's not so much the Fire DOT, it does very little against a DD.  It's how being on Fire worsens any ship's detection range.  When a DD is in trouble, they want to break contact.  Going from 5.8km surface detection to 7.8km because one is on fire, it gets real hard to break contact unless other factors come into play to save the DD.

 

 

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16 hours ago, lbfreitasBR said:

In @LittleWhiteMouse review of the ZF-6, it says the following:

"I think it's safe to say that ZF-6's AP shells are not the best choice when fighting destroyers."

I've been calculating the average damage from hits with ZF-6 (against other DDs), and I've come to the conclusion that it's best to use AP in almost any situation, against any target. I have been only switching to HE when the other DD is running away (when it gets too angled).

I made a simple calculation, dividing number of hits by total damage dealt. Minimum of 10 hits. In the last game I saw the replay to check exactly what each hit was (the last two items with AP):

AP: 440, 637, 565, 487, 406, 599, 434, 622, 610, 399, 676, 420 (vs Blyska: 16 overpens, 4 pens), 562 (vs ZF-6: 5 overpens, 6 pens, 2 ricochets); HE: 350, 456, 304, 466, 301, 385, 358.

(In a test in the training room, against a broadside and stationary Gearing, the average damage with AP was 776).

Almost always AP delivers more damage. So, as fire damage on DDs is usually small, I have found AP to be better, except when chances to get ricochets are high.

Most of the fights DDs are maneuvering, therefore, with reasonable chances of getting full pens, even if there are overpens throughout the fight. I have found it better than trying to use AP only under "ideal" conditions.

Am I leaving something out?



 

You didn't list the ricochets.  That's the defining line HE or AP.

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