Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
ttViper

Siegfried still waiting

23 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

9
[BCN]
Members
5 posts
5,044 battles

Contacted customer support about the official wargaming wiki advertising the Siegfried as a secondary oriented cruiser....still....After the captain reword that makes them literally worthless...So I contacted WG support to see if they'd update their wiki, here's the reply:
Dear ttViper,
Thank you for contacting Wargaming Support. We have forwarded this information to our specialist.
We are sorry that these changes don't meet your expectations. However, we would like to draw your attention to the fact that each player has his own opinion about what our game should be like. Unfortunately, it's impossible to create a game that would satisfy each and every player.
Furthermore, we are collecting players' feedback and game statistics after the update's release. If this data shows us that some ships or skills should be changed or re-worked, we will perform that and inform the community on the portal.
Should you have any other issues, please don't hesitate to contact us.

Best regards,
____________________________________________________
Now is anyone honestly under the impression that the Siegfrieds guns being worthless is just a matter of opinion when the only threads on the matter of the Siegfried and her secondaries are threads discussing how unviable and worthless they've become since the rework? and 6 months into the rework does anyone honestly believe WG is taking players feedback into account, all things considered...
https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/148086-lets-face-it-you-have-no-reason-to-play-siegfried-after-0100/
https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/146143-buff-siegfrieds-secondaries/
https://forum.worldofwarships.eu/topic/146290-full-secondary-build-cant-even-hit-an-island-anymore/
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/232508-siegfried-eh/
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/233096-siegfried-and-commanders-skill-re-work/
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/234127-secondary-build-cruisers-are-there-any/
https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/233592-refund-for-siegfried/

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/235170-agir-or-seigfried/

https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/232946-agir-secondaries-with-new-update/

  • Cool 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18,087
[ARGSY]
Members
25,140 posts
19,146 battles

What is the weight of Siegfried's secondary armament in DPM terms, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? I'm not talking about Agir here; I'm talking about Neptune, Donskoi, Seattle, etc.

What is the maximum range of Siegfried's secondary armament when fully specced, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? (Likewise, the comparison should be against the tech tree.)

How many hits per minute can you attain with Siegfried when compared with the best tech-tree cruisers?

 

If the answers to all of the questions are of a significantly greater magnitude than any tech-tree cruiser, then the Siegfried is and will continue to be a secondary-oriented cruiser, regardless of whether she kept her pre-2021 performance. 

As for comparisons with Agir, recall that the difference between the two is primarily in their MAIN armament. You are paying the research bureau premium for Gneisenau guns that shoot straight with cruiser matchmaking.

  • Cool 1
  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37
[TCWNN]
Beta Testers
115 posts
8,718 battles
41 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

What is the weight of Siegfried's secondary armament in DPM terms, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? I'm not talking about Agir here; I'm talking about Neptune, Donskoi, Seattle, etc.

What is the maximum range of Siegfried's secondary armament when fully specced, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? (Likewise, the comparison should be against the tech tree.)

How many hits per minute can you attain with Siegfried when compared with the best tech-tree cruisers?

 

If the answers to all of the questions are of a significantly greater magnitude than any tech-tree cruiser, then the Siegfried is and will continue to be a secondary-oriented cruiser, regardless of whether she kept her pre-2021 performance. 

As for comparisons with Agir, recall that the difference between the two is primarily in their MAIN armament. You are paying the research bureau premium for Gneisenau guns that shoot straight with cruiser matchmaking.

I’ve had more meme fires using Neptune’s secondaries than using Agir’s which is hilarious and her secondary range is… 8.6km or 9.1km? Don’t remember. 
 

but currently Agir secondaries are better than seigfrieds having chest a few more guns seigfried has 7x2 128mm guns compared to Agirs 9x2 128mm guns 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18,087
[ARGSY]
Members
25,140 posts
19,146 battles
3 minutes ago, Copperhead550 said:

I’ve had more meme fires using Neptune’s secondaries than using Agir’s which is hilarious and her secondary range is… 8.6km or 9.1km? Don’t remember. 

I never dared get that close. My Neptune always tended to explode the instant people glanced sideways at it. Siegfried probably doesn't have that issue.

  • Thanks 2
  • Meh 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37
[TCWNN]
Beta Testers
115 posts
8,718 battles
1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I never dared get that close. My Neptune always tended to explode the instant people glanced sideways at it. Siegfried probably doesn't have that issue.

If Seigfried has the same armor layout as Ägir, she will have a better time than the Neptune but Ägir still gets railed hard by BBs when closing the gap 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,100
[KWF]
Members
6,570 posts
7,187 battles

Wasn't the main point of Siegfried the Bismarck guns with cruiser accuracy, with secondaries just being there to help a bit?

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,568 posts
7,729 battles
Just now, warheart1992 said:

Wasn't the main point of Siegfried the Bismarck guns with cruiser accuracy, with secondaries just being there to help a bit?

Always what i thought, and with cruisers not being able to spec into secondaries anymore...

Siegfried doesnt see bad, i wonder if i would be able to carry better in her than Agir.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BCN]
Members
5 posts
5,044 battles

I didn't make this post to debate the usefulness or lack thereof for secondary build Sigfrieds, that was the purpose of linking a handful of threads that have already gone over this, it was more at the reasoning behind WG mentioning the Sigfrieds secondaries 20 times on the Wiki page despite them being a pointless gimmick at this point in the game.

Edit: Also lets not pretend that secondary builds didn't get nerfed into the dirt with the captain rework (specifically cruisers), so don't gaslight and tell me that this isn't a thing or it's no big deal when practically 100% of discussions on secondary builds after the rework have been determining how much less viable they are.

Edited by ttViper
  • Cool 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37
[TCWNN]
Beta Testers
115 posts
8,718 battles

Gotta find a wiki contributor to fix that then and not WG. But Seigfried/Ägir are still the best secondary built cruisers (even without the scommander skills to help secondaries). We all know secondaries are crappy now to what they once were but time will tell if WG will fix secondaries and stop pampering to DDs that complain about everything that scratches their paint. Almost seems like the devs don’t play their own game with the changes they add… wouldn’t surprise me actually

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
703
[UN1]
Members
1,405 posts
4,594 battles
2 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

What is the weight of Siegfried's secondary armament in DPM terms, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? I'm not talking about Agir here; I'm talking about Neptune, Donskoi, Seattle, etc.

What is the maximum range of Siegfried's secondary armament when fully specced, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? (Likewise, the comparison should be against the tech tree.)

How many hits per minute can you attain with Siegfried when compared with the best tech-tree cruisers?

If the answers to all of the questions are of a significantly greater magnitude than any tech-tree cruiser, then the Siegfried is and will continue to be a secondary-oriented cruiser, regardless of whether she kept her pre-2021 performance. 

As for comparisons with Agir, recall that the difference between the two is primarily in their MAIN armament. You are paying the research bureau premium for Gneisenau guns that shoot straight with cruiser matchmaking.

Okay.  :)

Including some popular BB brawlers for reference values.  BB's assume AAM2, whereas cruisers assume MBM3 'cause that's how players normally play them.

  1. Alsace - 12km - 635k dpm
  2. Georgia - 11.3km - 400k dpm
  3. FdG/Pommern - 12km - 370k dpm
  4. Agir - 10.1km - 292k dpm
  5. Siegfried - 10.1km - 233k dpm
  6. Neptune - 8.76km - 225k dpm
  7. Roon - 10.1km - 214k dpm
  8. Seattle/Buffalo/Alaska - 8.76km - 168k dpm
  9. Ibuki - 8.76km - 166k dpm
  10. Riga - 8.76km - 160k dpm
  11. Donskoi - 8.76km - 147k dpm
  12. Brindisi - 8.76km - 136k dpm
  13. Drake - 8.76km - 134k dpm

So, referring to the bolded part of what I quoted, while Agir/Siegfried do enjoy greater secondary range and DPM than other cruisers at its tier, it's still not an acceptable amount to actually be usable after captain skill investment and modules, which I consider to be static values.  Heck, even with the greater range and substantially greater DPM values of battleships, in addition to their greater survivability, make investing into a secondary build of questionable value.  Here's the problem; that additional secondary "umph" that Agir/Siegfried supposedly enjoy gets baked into the balancing values of these ships.  Without the ability to substantially improve the accuracy of the secondaries (aka, the old Manual Secondaries), these balancing values get completely wasted into the overall design of the ship.  

Now, that doesn't mean that these ships are currently underpowered (they're not), but the OP is 100% correct in pointing out that it's a sham to advertise them as "secondary oriented cruisers" when clearly they're not.

It's also important to note that the impact of additional accuracy values is more of a cubic law than a linear one.  Despite the Agir being roughly 2/3rds the DPM of the Pommern, it will be lucky to achieve roughly 1/12ths the real, actual damage output in a live environment.

Edited by Ranari
  • Cool 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37
[TCWNN]
Beta Testers
115 posts
8,718 battles
17 minutes ago, Ranari said:

Okay.  :)

Including some popular BB brawlers for reference values.  BB's assume AAM2, whereas cruisers assume MBM3 'cause that's how players normally play them.

  1. Alsace - 12km - 635k dpm
  2. Georgia - 11.3km - 400k dpm
  3. FdG/Pommern - 12km - 370k dpm
  4. Agir - 10.1km - 292k dpm
  5. Siegfried - 10.1km - 233k dpm
  6. Neptune - 8.76km - 225k dpm
  7. Roon - 10.1km - 214k dpm
  8. Seattle/Buffalo/Alaska - 8.76km - 168k dpm
  9. Ibuki - 8.76km - 166k dpm
  10. Riga - 8.76km - 160k dpm
  11. Donskoi - 8.76km - 147k dpm
  12. Brindisi - 8.76km - 136k dpm
  13. Drake - 8.76km - 134k dpm

So, referring to the bolded part of what I quoted, while Agir/Siegfried do enjoy greater secondary range and DPM than other cruisers at its tier, it's still not an acceptable amount to actually be usable after captain skill investment and modules, which I consider to be static values.  Heck, even with the greater range and substantially greater DPM values of battleships, in addition to their greater survivability, make investing into a secondary build of questionable value.  Here's the problem; that additional secondary "umph" that Agir/Siegfried supposedly enjoy gets baked into the balancing values of these ships.  Without the ability to substantially improve the accuracy of the secondaries (aka, the old Manual Secondaries), these balancing values get completely wasted into the overall design of the ship.  

Now, that doesn't mean that these ships are currently underpowered (they're not), but the OP is 100% correct in pointing out that it's a sham to advertise them as "secondary oriented cruisers" when clearly they're not.

It's also important to note that the impact of additional accuracy values is more of a cubic law than a linear one.  Despite the Agir being roughly 2/3rds the DPM of the Pommern, it will be lucky to achieve roughly 1/12ths the real, actual damage output in a live environment.

But off topic but surprised the drake and Neptune secondary damage is so different when they have the same compliment of secondaries and share the same range 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,790
[WOLF8]
Members
8,202 posts
6,785 battles

IMHO, maybe WeeGee simply forgot to update the description of Siegfried and remove the "secondary oriented cruiser" part... or maybe they just don't care about it, lol. :Smile_hiding:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
224
[-AGW-]
Members
1,066 posts
18,324 battles

It is still the least common cruiser at its tier. Maybe the people that do care don't represent enough wallet power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
365
[MUG-T]
Members
784 posts
4,262 battles
2 hours ago, Copperhead550 said:

But Seigfried/Ägir are still the best secondary built cruisers 

Obviously you've never seen St. Louis with 14 secondaries. The best brawler. Change my mind.

 

4 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

What is the weight of Siegfried's secondary armament in DPM terms, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? I'm not talking about Agir here; I'm talking about Neptune, Donskoi, Seattle, etc.

What is the maximum range of Siegfried's secondary armament when fully specced, when compared to other cruisers at her tier? (Likewise, the comparison should be against the tech tree.)

How many hits per minute can you attain with Siegfried when compared with the best tech-tree cruisers?

 

If the answers to all of the questions are of a significantly greater magnitude than any tech-tree cruiser, then the Siegfried is and will continue to be a secondary-oriented cruiser, regardless of whether she kept her pre-2021 performance. 

As for comparisons with Agir, recall that the difference between the two is primarily in their MAIN armament. You are paying the research bureau premium for Gneisenau guns that shoot straight with cruiser matchmaking.

You do realize Seattle doesn't have secondaries right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,014
[WOLFG]
Members
34,350 posts
10,591 battles
4 hours ago, ttViper said:

To be fair, those are all forum topics started by players.

Opinions are exactly what they all are.

To make them not opinions, you'd need an established authority to establish criteria, and then show Siegfried not fitting said criteria.

As for the only threads on Siegfried being about her secondary guns losing effectiveness, what other threads about Siegfried's secondaries would you expect to see?

I don't see anyone making threads about other ships, saying how good their secondaries are.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BCN]
Members
5 posts
5,044 battles
9 hours ago, Copperhead550 said:

Gotta find a wiki contributor to fix that then and not WG. But Seigfried/Ägir are still the best secondary built cruisers (even without the scommander skills to help secondaries). We all know secondaries are crappy now to what they once were but time will tell if WG will fix secondaries and stop pampering to DDs that complain about everything that scratches their paint. Almost seems like the devs don’t play their own game with the changes they add… wouldn’t surprise me actually

Pretty sure WG manages the wiki.wargaming.net/ , and I did contact them about this specifically, that's why I included their reply.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BCN]
Members
5 posts
5,044 battles
6 hours ago, Skpstr said:

To be fair, those are all forum topics started by players.

Opinions are exactly what they all are.

To make them not opinions, you'd need an established authority to establish criteria, and then show Siegfried not fitting said criteria.

As for the only threads on Siegfried being about her secondary guns losing effectiveness, what other threads about Siegfried's secondaries would you expect to see?

I don't see anyone making threads about other ships, saying how good their secondaries are.

 

Actually that's evidence supporting the fact that her secondaries have become a worthless gimmick, and no, you don't see people making threads about how good secondary builds are on other ships, you see threads discussing *which* secondary build is best, because it's already past the point of whether the secondaries are good or not.
This screenshot isn't an opinion..and by your definition of "opinion", there's no such thing as player feedback since it's all just opinions and WG can disregard it all just the same while continuing to tell us to just leave feedback here to fall on deaf ears.
 

c3c807fde9f65c78f81366399798005c.png

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13,225
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
31,700 posts
26,591 battles
18 hours ago, Copperhead550 said:

But off topic but surprised the drake and Neptune secondary damage is so different when they have the same compliment of secondaries and share the same range 

raw

It's the same reason why the the 127mm/38 guns on Massachusetts, Georgia, are magically firing faster, have better range, and are more accurate than the exact same guns, turrets, and even mounts on many other USN ships, to include North Carolina, Alabama, Iowa, Missouri, Baltimore, Cleveland, Des Moines, etc.

same-same-but-different-gif-5.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,568 posts
7,729 battles
2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

raw

It's the same reason why the the 127mm/38 guns on Massachusetts, Georgia, are magically firing faster, have better range, and are more accurate than the exact same guns, turrets, and even mounts on many other USN ships, to include North Carolina, Alabama, Iowa, Missouri, Baltimore, Cleveland, Des Moines, etc.

same-same-but-different-gif-5.gif

And then you have Ohio whos shoot even faster..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13,225
[WOLF3]
[WOLF3]
Members
31,700 posts
26,591 battles
9 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

And then you have Ohio whos shoot even faster..

The fun thing is Ohio, Montana, Midway, and FDR use different 127mm guns than all other USN ships.  They use 127mm/54.  Even IJN Premium Ship HSF Harekaze has these same guns as a (non-optimal) option.

Montana-class were indeed supposed to have these, but the class was cancelled for higher wartime priorities.

WNUS_16-50_mk7_Montana_model_pic.jpg

USS Coral Sea below.

WNUS_5-54_mk16_Coral_Sea_port.jpg

But anyways, Ohio's 127mm/54s are magically outright superior than Montana, who has the exact same guns, turrets, mounts as Ohio.

 

Historically the US Navy didn't use the guns much, you only found them on the Midway-class CVs, and even then, they started pulling them off the ships.  Some of these guns found their way into Japanese Maritime Self Defense Forces' warships afterwards.  Below is JMSDF Destroyer Yudachi in 1986 with some of these guns.

WNUS_5-54_mk16_Yudachi_pic.jpg

 

And WoWS HSF Harekaze with the 127mm/54 guns fitted.  Again, it's the suboptimal pick.  No player in their right mind would use these or the regular IJN 127mm gun options, and use the IJN 100mm gun instead.

Shirochan%EF%BC%BFKawaii.jpg?rev=b78d974

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,568 posts
7,729 battles
2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The fun thing is Ohio, Montana, Midway, and FDR use different 127mm guns than all other USN ships.  They use 127mm/54.  Even IJN Premium Ship HSF Harekaze has these same guns as a (non-optimal) option.

Montana-class were indeed supposed to have these, but the class was cancelled for higher wartime priorities.

WNUS_16-50_mk7_Montana_model_pic.jpg

USS Coral Sea below.

WNUS_5-54_mk16_Coral_Sea_port.jpg

But anyways, Ohio's 127mm/54s are magically outright superior than Montana, who has the exact same guns, turrets, mounts as Ohio.

 

Historically the US Navy didn't use the guns much, you only found them on the Midway-class CVs, and even then, they started pulling them off the ships.  Some of these guns found their way into Japanese Maritime Self Defense Forces' warships afterwards.  Below is JMSDF Destroyer Yudachi in 1986 with some of these guns.

WNUS_5-54_mk16_Yudachi_pic.jpg

 

And WoWS HSF Harekaze with the 127mm/54 guns fitted.  Again, it's the suboptimal pick.  No player in their right mind would use these or the regular IJN 127mm gun options, and use the IJN 100mm gun instead.

Shirochan%EF%BC%BFKawaii.jpg?rev=b78d974

 

Today i learned something!

Are the Ohios better than Midways/FDR too?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
222
[F4E]
Members
449 posts
7,078 battles
21 hours ago, ttViper said:

I didn't make this post to debate the usefulness or lack thereof for secondary build Sigfrieds, that was the purpose of linking a handful of threads that have already gone over this, it was more at the reasoning behind WG mentioning the Sigfrieds secondaries 20 times on the Wiki page despite them being a pointless gimmick at this point in the game.

Edit: Also lets not pretend that secondary builds didn't get nerfed into the dirt with the captain rework (specifically cruisers), so don't gaslight and tell me that this isn't a thing or it's no big deal when practically 100% of discussions on secondary builds after the rework have been determining how much less viable they are.

I would also be very upset had I grinded the RB points for the Siegfried for WG to pull this move.  I understand your frustration.  I was a couple weeks from spending the FXP and getting it when preliminary changes to the captain rebork came out (and it didn't look good for Siegfried).

I believe they pulled the captain secondary skills off the cruiser build, not out of laziness as WG wants you to believe, but to nerf this ship specifically.  Let's face it, it was a monster for a good number of months there.  Torps, heavy hitting Alpha, fantastic survivability, and then the secondary build to augment its lack of DPM, it was clearly the best (and OP) CA just before a T9 CB season.

It's wasn't the first time they "changed" the game which nerfs the crap out of a particular premium ship, doubt it'll be the last.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,129
[FOXY]
Members
2,568 posts
7,729 battles
2 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

I would also be very upset had I grinded the RB points for the Siegfried for WG to pull this move.  I understand your frustration.  I was a couple weeks from spending the FXP and getting it when preliminary changes to the captain rebork came out (and it didn't look good for Siegfried).

I believe they pulled the captain secondary skills off the cruiser build, not out of laziness as WG wants you to believe, but to nerf this ship specifically.  Let's face it, it was a monster for a good number of months there.  Torps, heavy hitting Alpha, fantastic survivability, and then the secondary build to augment its lack of DPM, it was clearly the best (and OP) CA just before a T9 CB season.

It's wasn't the first time they "changed" the game which nerfs the crap out of a particular premium ship, doubt it'll be the last.

Hopefully it is. Id rather have them directly nerf ships of any kind, than have them change the entire game to nerf three ships.

KMS bbs werent great or even good before the skill rework and now they are worse, All to nerf the American trio. :/

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×