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Soshi_Sone

The much misunderstood Tiger 59

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Not that I'm knocking those who've never played it, but the feedback I get in game is pretty much a reflection that few understand how this ship operates.  I get condolences when bottom tier...yet, she really shines in T10 matches.  There are ways to play her that greatly magnify her attributes in the T10 match.  Some techniques are VERY powerful.  And then I get feedback about being out of position, either too far back...or too far forward.  Again, there is a place to be with Tiger...and sometimes it's at a distance and other times it's up front.  And, of course, somewhere inbetween.  But based on the feedback, folks just don't understand the ship.  

On the plus side, this works on both sides of the coin.  Reds don't either.  And until they do, more dinner for the tiger.

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There's always someone that can make anything work. Maybe you are one of those people.

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So far, only 6 people have played the minimum number of battles (40) with Tiger '59 to be tracked on WOWS Numbers, and they account for close to 1/4 (~22.9%) of the total number of battles the ship has on NA server.  Not a big seller apparently.

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It would be interesting if they buffed it by giving it DD levels of concealment. 

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46 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Not that I'm knocking those who've never played it, but the feedback I get in game is pretty much a reflection that few understand how this ship operates.  I get condolences when bottom tier...yet, she really shines in T10 matches.  There are ways to play her that greatly magnify her attributes in the T10 match.  Some techniques are VERY powerful.  And then I get feedback about being out of position, either too far back...or too far forward.  Again, there is a place to be with Tiger...and sometimes it's at a distance and other times it's up front.  And, of course, somewhere inbetween.  But based on the feedback, folks just don't understand the ship.  

On the plus side, this works on both sides of the coin.  Reds don't either.  And until they do, more dinner for the tiger.

+1. I get that a lot playing the Neptune in ranked :).Called trash and whatnot. Yet then ...hopla and ups.... :)

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1 hour ago, landcollector said:

So far, only 6 people have played the minimum number of battles (40) with Tiger '59 to be tracked on WOWS Numbers, and they account for close to 1/4 (~22.9%) of the total number of battles the ship has on NA server.  Not a big seller apparently.

Yeah...I noticed this.  Lots of negative press.  But a few of those players seem to have figured it out...several better then me.

1 hour ago, Yoshiblue said:

It would be interesting if they buffed it by giving it DD levels of concealment. 

Well, it's conceal/radar range fits into an interesting niche at T10.  Yes...T10.  While there are many radar cruisers that shoot radar further, particularly the RU line, these ships seem to play very conservatively in the early game...as there are often hungry BBs looking for an easy kill.  While there are some comparable T8 detect/radar cruisers, they don't have smoke.  So they too play conservative in the early game.  Enter Tiger 59...one of the few cruisers that can push up early in T10 games, without worrying much about radar, and the ability to smoke up upon detection by any DDs and Radar them!  I've had many T10 games where we go up a DD early in the match with this strategy.  

Now, got to be careful that those RU CAs can't radar from cover...so it takes a good look at the map and the hide points and related ranges.  And gotta note any division matching DD smokers and radar cruisers...they can net the same thing Tiger brings to the fight and then some!  But haven't run into this yet.

And when a DD doesn't show at the cap, guess who gets the cap?  Little ole Tiger.  I get a good share of early caps in T10 matches.  It's EASIER than when Tiger is top tier because T10 is a more conservative tier than T8.  Tiger can take advantage of that.

It's little things like this that make Tiger work well.  Hunt down DDs...EARLY!  Get an early cap.  Just one of an assortment of the "swiss army knife" functions Tiger offers. 

 

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At T10 I bet. Tiger is a very strange beast in that it enforces a ship equivalent role of a light tank. Positioning, scouting and area control. At least that is what I picked up on. At T10, how do you feel about the ship's AA power? From what I know of the ship it was built as an AA platform, but I don't know how that translated into the game. As a utility cruiser though I imagine it being decent at providing extra flak to the skies.

 

I've also wondered how you felt about California and Mysore these days since they've had enough time to settle in by now.  

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Dunno, to me Tiger '59 has the tools, but not the firepower to accomplish much. You can surely hunt DDs with all the gimmicks you got but with just four turrets, even with the improved accuracy, a DD paying the slightest attention can escape or minimize any damage taken. Ships like Kiev and Fantasque can straight up outgun you, and you lack any torpedoes to be a threat to smoked up ships or anyone rushing you. 

Now, I'm not saying the ship is worthless, I can see it working in divisions and in a support role, but for the price that's asked and for what is offered, I would rather take Edinburgh with Radar for free and take my chances with the lack of smoke.

Edited by warheart1992

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1 hour ago, warheart1992 said:

Dunno, to me Tiger '59 has the tools, but not the firepower to accomplish much. You can surely hunt DDs with all the gimmicks you got but with just four turrets, even with the improved accuracy, a DD paying the slightest attention can escape or minimize any damage taken. Ships like Kiev and Fantasque can straight up outgun you, and you lack any torpedoes to be a threat to smoked up ships or anyone rushing you. 

Now, I'm not saying the ship is worthless, I can see it working in divisions and in a support role, but for the price that's asked and for what is offered, I would rather take Edinburgh with Radar for free and take my chances with the lack of smoke.

Just based on turret traverse & reload I'd rather have the Tiger than the Ed...

Tiger's turrets spin fast (360° rotation also & less that 5 seconds for 180°) & unless the Ed has all turrets facing the right direction...if the 2 meet against each other the Tiger will rip most of Ed away before the Ed gets it's turrets into position (won't do that to just any old ship...but RN CLs are exceptionally vulnerable to RN CL shells).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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The thing I find amazing and fascinating about Tiger is the combination of smoke/radar and the very good accuracy of the guns. They don't just spin fast and 360 degrees; they shoot really straight (try one of the new German DDs when they eventually become available to try on the PTS, and you will see what I mean). She's almost a Tier 8 British Yubari (albeit without torps).  

Granted, I use mine as a bot killer, but Soshi did a good job of selling me on this ship and I've got absolutely no regrets about the money I spent.

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5 hours ago, Yoshiblue said:

At T10 I bet. Tiger is a very strange beast in that it enforces a ship equivalent role of a light tank. Positioning, scouting and area control. At least that is what I picked up on. At T10, how do you feel about the ship's AA power? From what I know of the ship it was built as an AA platform, but I don't know how that translated into the game. As a utility cruiser though I imagine it being decent at providing extra flak to the skies.

 

I've also wondered how you felt about California and Mysore these days since they've had enough time to settle in by now.  

The AA didn't translate into the game.  However, if you air spec her, CVs can't ignore what she can do to a squadron.  Fly into the teeth of her defenses with everything active, and it's nigh 600 continuous inside of 4km.  I believe she has the best long term reach of any cruiser in the game (definitely for T8).  Not much hurt, but the ability to reach out and protect others...particularly DDs...from loitering air.  And even the burst can be effective if it catches a squadron on an attack vector on a friendly at range.

I don't worry about any tier of CVs.  She is not a ship that goes solo in the open when lots of threats can engage.  I find myself lending AA support to other ships more than other ships lending AA support for me.  Might be Tiger's reputation as a poor ship that limits engagements.  Why target the poor ship when there are plenty of better targets? 

I still think California is a good T7 ship.  Not great.  But good.  But I am obviously in the minority.

5 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

Dunno, to me Tiger '59 has the tools, but not the firepower to accomplish much. You can surely hunt DDs with all the gimmicks you got but with just four turrets, even with the improved accuracy, a DD paying the slightest attention can escape or minimize any damage taken. Ships like Kiev and Fantasque can straight up outgun you, and you lack any torpedoes to be a threat to smoked up ships or anyone rushing you. 

Now, I'm not saying the ship is worthless, I can see it working in divisions and in a support role, but for the price that's asked and for what is offered, I would rather take Edinburgh with Radar for free and take my chances with the lack of smoke.

As for DD engagements the trick is to engage with at least one (preferably more) other ships.  A team typical kill occurs when I back stop a pushing DD that meets another DD.  We (me and my friendly DD) can both smoke while I radar.  Between the two of us (and whatever incoming we get from friendly midfield), that's usually enough to dispatch the DD.  As the game progresses, I can go solo as most DDs are running with damage by that point.  

Agree, you gotta respect what other cruisers can do to you.  And this goes to the utility nature of the cruiser.  It's not a solo smoker.  You are part of a group.  Cruisers don't rush me when I have BB back support, or I'm intermingled with DDs and other cruisers.  And when a rush does occur, it's a similar logic to the smoke "torp magnet".  There comes a time you gotta depart the smoke based on the threat.  For a torp magnet, it's all about SA (knowing what threats are present and the travel time of their torps...it's more of a feeling).  If a rush is on, and I don't have back support, I leave early and extend.  Unlike torp magnets SA where it's a feeling, you usually see the rush coming.

 

3 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Just based on turret traverse & reload I'd rather have the Tiger than the Ed...

Tiger's turrets spin fast (360° rotation also & less that 5 seconds for 180°) & unless the Ed has all turrets facing the right direction...if the 2 meet against each other the Tiger will rip most of Ed away before the Ed gets it's turrets into position (won't do that to just any old ship...but RN CLs are exceptionally vulnerable to RN CL shells).

This is so true.  DPM is more than how many guns and how fast they shoot.  When hunting DDs, time on target is critical.  The ability to spot, engage on ANY VECTOR within seconds can be a big deal. 

************************************

Lastly, I will comment on one video I saw concerning the Tiger, and the negative review.  Watching the video, I noted the player was using the Tiger like a traditional RN cruiser.  This is NOT THE WAY IT'S PLAYED!!!  Play like a Neptune or Ed...and you're not playing it correctly.  Play it that way, and the negative review is a forgone conclusion.  Not because it's a poor ship, but because the reviewer didn't play it properly. If one does not understand its strengths and plays it improperly, of course it's not going to play very well. 

Oh, and finding its niche isn't necessarily obvious on the first few plays.  It's a "thinking persons" ship.  Thinking strategically (based on tier, map, and MM) and thinking tactically as the game unfolds.  If you like variety in this regard, Tiger might be for you.  

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Yep, such utility, much destroyer-hunting, great flexibility, so amazing:

image.thumb.png.e3853899965452d131eff9fa56d95e95.png

 

This ship is trash top-tier, trash mid-tier, trash bottom-tier, trash anti-destroyer, trash anti-cruiser and completely worthless anti-battleship and anti-carrier.

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3 hours ago, mofton said:

Yep, such utility, much destroyer-hunting, great flexibility, so amazing:

image.thumb.png.e3853899965452d131eff9fa56d95e95.png

 

This ship is trash top-tier, trash mid-tier, trash bottom-tier, trash anti-destroyer, trash anti-cruiser and completely worthless anti-battleship and anti-carrier.

Tiger is NOT a one trick DD hunting pony.  No DDs?  Fine.  Looking at the MM, and depending on the map (domination), Tiger gets first cap.  Hell, she could take all the caps.  And considering the potential for stalemate given the MM, going up caps early is a good way to win.  Reds have no radar ships.  My green friendlies can use my smoke and rotate radar.  She is the ONLY cruiser in either side's lineup that can solo cap an open cap without worrying about a BB blap. And once a cap is secured, she makes a great reset cruiser.  And as for AP, plenty of squishy cruisers in that line up and one squishy BB.

One simply CANNOT think of Tiger as just another T8 cruiser.  Or as simply a DD killer.  In the MM above, one can't go "Oh crap...no DDs to hunt" and then work the map like a traditional cruiser.  Do that, and one will see failings in the ship.  It cannot match other CAs in THAT mode of operation.  But realize there will be no DDs capping and a bunch of CAs cautiously working the perimeter.

And air spec'd, she is very effective against T6 air.     

I'm not saying Tiger is an OP wonder weapon.  What I am saying is she is a very solid T8 cruiser capable of carrying her T8 weight and more in most matches.

Edited by Soshi_Sone

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1 minute ago, Soshi_Sone said:

And air spec'd, she is very effective against T6 air.     

That's not very high praise.  If a T8 ship isn't effective against planes two tiers lower, that's quite bad; being effective in that situation is expected.

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So I bought her. I treat her as just a giant Freisland with better utilities. Does it always work? No. Does she still have a steep learning curve as LWM pointed out? Yes. But she offers a play style that is just fundamentally different than what the 'normal' British CLs offer. Watching @SeaRaptor try to man-handle it throughout his match he was making direct comparisons to Edinburgh throughout, which indicated to me he was going into it with that kind of mindset. But you can't. She doesn't play like any other British CL in the game (BTW, as you can guess it does make her a hard pass as a captain trainer IMO). So you have to go into it with something else. And to me, the ship she most closely resembles is Freisland. So you play her kind of like that.

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As a newer player, the Tiger just seems too specialized for me to want to spend money on.  There are other Tier VIII ships I’d rather get (Kii and Kidd, to name two) that seem much more flexible.  I have only seen one Tiger 59 while playing: It was a Tier X match, the Tiger was on the red team and I was in Montana, he smoked up, got radared and then I came around the island  (to be fair I was undetected and ~12km away) and deleted him in one salvo.  Not really a fair fight and obviously not statistically representative, but it’s literally the only time I’ve seen one.

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I read/watched the reviews before I purchased and knew it wasn’t a great ship.  But playing it I’ve had some remarkable stats (just need more battles).

Yes, it has bad DPM and struggles for damage but it’s role is fun.  I also like other team support such a as Ochakov for comparison.

Saying that I’ve also been able to abuse a few Tigers knowing it’s weaknesses.

 

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I haven't played it yet, but considering how many times I'ved capped early/mid in smoker CL's while lamenting I had to do a dd's job. I might try that out.

 

 

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23 hours ago, rallybackmonkey said:

As a newer player, the Tiger just seems too specialized for me to want to spend money on.  There are other Tier VIII ships I’d rather get (Kii and Kidd, to name two) that seem much more flexible.  I have only seen one Tiger 59 while playing: It was a Tier X match, the Tiger was on the red team and I was in Montana, he smoked up, got radared and then I came around the island  (to be fair I was undetected and ~12km away) and deleted him in one salvo.  Not really a fair fight and obviously not statistically representative, but it’s literally the only time I’ve seen one.

I agree that Tiger is definitely NOT for newer players.  There are many aspects of WOWS that is learned over several years of play, as well as the play of all the different types of ships.  In order to get the most out of a swiss army knife, you pretty much need to know what tool to pull for the situation at hand.  In fact, in some regard, playing Tiger early before establishing a good foundation in the game in general might cause one to develop poor skills.  Tiger is an enigma of exceptions.  Without knowledge of the base, there is no comprehension of exceptions.  And learning a base as an exception...that's not good either.

Oh, and I forgot to mention...flags flags flags....and captain's skills (meaning a very good captain).  Tiger is an EXPENSIVE ship to kit out. Squeezing every ounce out of flag enhancements is critical.  I haven't worked out my net coin, but I wouldn't be surprised if, factoring in the flags, she is a net loss.  

That reminds me.  Tiger took my original (and still) QE captain from 19 to 21...running the dragon flag, in a couple of weeks.  All said, there isn't much between 19 and 21 when running an air spec.  But I can see other captain builds where one could max out a theme.

Edited by Soshi_Sone

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On 6/14/2021 at 1:48 PM, Trophy_Wench said:

So I bought her. I treat her as just a giant Freisland with better utilities. Does it always work? No. Does she still have a steep learning curve as LWM pointed out? Yes. But she offers a play style that is just fundamentally different than what the 'normal' British CLs offer. Watching @SeaRaptor try to man-handle it throughout his match he was making direct comparisons to Edinburgh throughout, which indicated to me he was going into it with that kind of mindset. But you can't. She doesn't play like any other British CL in the game (BTW, as you can guess it does make her a hard pass as a captain trainer IMO). So you have to go into it with something else. And to me, the ship she most closely resembles is Freisland. So you play her kind of like that.

Maybe that's my problem with her; I ENJOY the play style of the British light cruisers.  I don't want something "else", I want something that parallels or compliments it.  If Tiger isn't that, then it's little wonder that I don't care for her.

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26 minutes ago, SeaRaptor said:

Maybe that's my problem with her; I ENJOY the play style of the British light cruisers.  I don't want something "else", I want something that parallels or compliments it.  If Tiger isn't that, then it's little wonder that I don't care for her.

And that's entirely fair. If that particular playstyle suits you, then don't get Tiger 59', which is really the main takeaway here. That being said @SeaRaptor, I do hope to see you take it out in stream one more time. I'd be curious to see if you'd have a significantly improved game now knowing what you know. :cap_like:

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On 6/14/2021 at 2:38 AM, Soshi_Sone said:

Enter Tiger 59...one of the few cruisers that can push up early in T10 games, without worrying much about radar, and the ability to smoke up upon detection by any DDs and Radar them!  I've had many T10 games where we go up a DD early in the match with this strategy.  

The problem isn't that Tiger can't find DDs, it's that she can't kill them on her own.  She just doesn't have the DPM.  For the same reason, she has real trouble defending against a DD rush.

She needs a friend. With teamwork there's no doubt she can be very effective. Finding people that understand this. Well...


Ah!  I that see you agree with that and the AA build.

+1

Edited by iDuckman

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@Soshi_Sone really loves the tiger 59 :fish_cute_2: Her California must be extremely jelly right now :Smile_sceptic:

Edited by LastRemnant

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On 6/14/2021 at 7:39 AM, Soshi_Sone said:

However, if you air spec her, CVs can't ignore what she can do to a squadron.

With Tiger's limited offensive capability, can you really afford to AA spec the ship? 

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15 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

With Tiger's limited offensive capability, can you really afford to AA spec the ship? 

You might think that at first.  The bottom line is that no build will improve her offensive deficiencies enough to make much difference.  An AA build will let her better defend herself and her friend(s).

 

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