Submarines : A review for the rest of us

[Tereva_Lostlagon]

Hi all

I am an average player. If you are like me this is what you can realistically expect coming your way when the subs will be introduced.

Test instance
Downloading & installing the test instance is made pretty easy by WG. There were more players online than I expected, and I did not see many bots. Of course everyone wants to play subs, so finding a game is hard sometimes.

The playstyle is all over the place though. Some playing seriously, some yoloing and some big potatoes.
It's a broadside feast!  On my first battle with a BB I almost did 300,000 damage  :p

Tip for you: All Tier 10 ships were unlocked, so this was a good opportunity to try the ones you do not have or are grinding at the moment.



Playing the Subs
We could test one US and one German tier 10.
They both look beautiful in port, and in my opinion the German one looks more badass.
I know what you are thinking.... but Looking good in battle IS important :p

The first thing you notice is how all the other ships look so BIG !! DD are looming over you. BB and CV are massive objects that fill the sky.

You can spend a fixed time underwater. This can be increased by equipment and skills but once you run out of time you have to surface and stay there.
Because of this, diving right away is a bad idea. It's better to stay on the surface until you get close.
On the surface you behave roughly like a DD.
Low 30kps speed, reasonably agile. One big difference is that your torpedoes tubes are facing forward and backward too (but only on the US sub).

But whatever, this is World of Sub now, so let's dive-in....

You can go at periscope depth, a bit deeper, and a lot deeper.
The underwater landscape is cool at first, and all is blue-ish / grey-ish. This is probably realistic but not especially beautiful nor breathtaking.


You have a sonar that permits you to "ping" targets, and that will guide your torpedoes. Yes, your heard right, your torpedoes will turn and try to follow your targets. However when they get around 2,5km  -I think- they will stop honing to the target (i.e. they will not be able to turn anymore and go straight).

Seems soooooo OP on paper.
I was ready to gorge myself on big juicy BB, the sun was shining, and life was looking amazing when I clicked "Battle"...

Reality kicked in when a fat-[edited]Vermont dodged my well guided torps !
I took it personally - obviously - and kept chasing her, while she gave me all her attention
At the end of the fight I managed to put 5 torps into her (yay baby), but she killed me with one air strike.
It was awesome : )
Seeing the depth charges slowly sinking around you and detonating while you try to dodge is... actually fun.



Playing against a sub

In summary, DD and some light cruisers need to go on top of the sub and launch depth charges. BBs and some heavy cruisers can call a depth charge airstrike from a distance.
Both ways are easy to do and moderately effective. Subs have a low HP pool, so every hit counts.

Another effective tactic consists in RAMING the damn sub when she is on the surface or even at periscope depth.
I have to admit that it is immensely satisfying to run over a sub with a battleship. I liked it... a LOT...


Effect on the game
I believe that there will be a before and an after, and the meta will shift.

For example, the mighty Petro (Tier 10 heavy russian cruiser) has no depth charge. Zero, nada, zip.
He cannot fight back against a sub.
Period !
We might see a lot less of those tanky super-cruisers camping and holding a choke point.

BB have another serious threat to watch out for, and while they are busy dodging and calling air-strike, they are not shooting at cruisers and might offer a lot broadsides.

Ping can be used as... crowd control !
I am not kidding.
I often pinged a target that I had no intention of engaging. First, it's funny to see the guy panicking (what can I say, I have an evil side....). And second, most of the time, the ship will try to "escape" and in the process will give me a clear path to the yummy BB that was my real target all along.

DD are effective sub-killers as subs abilities to fight back fast targets are really limited. I suspect that we will see more DD (bad news for me since I suck at DD).

Light cruisers might become more important, to kill the extra DD & subs (yay me, I love light cruisers)


In summary
With my limited experience, I find that sub are neither OP nor underperforming.
They do offer a significantly different play-style. Well done WG on offering variety, thank you for that, more variety is always a good thing in my book.

If you like zipping around all guns firing, you might want to look somewhere else.
But if you like planning ahead, be sneaky and ambush unsuspecting targets, you will love them.

I suspect that the overall game experience will shift toward a faster gameplay and that BB will struggle more.
In any case, camping & snipping in the back will make you a juicy target.
And after all the whining around the "boring dead-eye meta", I cannot wait to hear the complaints about how "WG KILLED snipping, how outrageous !".


See you on the water all,


T.

[kyesac]

First of all, thanks for the writeup.  I found it informative since I am not doing subs at the get go.

Questions for you:

As a sub, do you have time to make it to the 'back row' to find the BB campers?  Even in coop, red bots will move around on the 'back wall' trying to change position or get hung up on an island trying manuevers it really shouldn't be trying.

Did you find that your underwater time was sufficient for what you wanted to do? 

You hit the Vermont with 5 torps.  How much damage?  How is the flooding chances?

As the surface ship, did you 'see' the sub when it pings? 

How far out are torps spotted (same as surface ships)?

Seems to me a viable tactic is for a DD or cruiser to just park on a sub and force it to surface - or is it better to depth charge them?

Any feel for how many surface ships can or cannot fight a sub at all?

[THAC0E]

Good summary without the hysteria, thank you!  It's a nice change.

 

[Tereva_Lostlagon]

You are most welcome, so...

<do you have time to make it to the 'back row' to find the BB campers? 
Time, totally. It's more about finding a path that is free of DD & light cruisers.
It's part of the planning + being sneaky.
You have to avoid DD while looking for juicy targets (looking at you Russian BB camping a choke point :p ) 


<Did you find that your underwater time was sufficient for what you wanted to do? 
You get 9min and a bit (depending on equipment & skills).
Seems to be a decent amount of time assuming you surface when you can.
This is probably tricky. Too much time and subs becomes OP, to little and they won't perform

<You hit the Vermont with 5 torps.  How much damage?  How is the flooding chances?
If you manage to ping a target twice at the exact same place you do a LOT of damage (like hitting a citadel), if you don't you do very meh damage.
Pinging twice the same place is actually not so easy on real players (against bots that go straight a lot less challenging suddenly ;P )
With 5 Torps + 2 flooding I took about 30 maybe 40% of her health, so that still stung ;P 

<As the surface ship, did you 'see' the sub when it pings? 
When you get pinged by a sub, a section of your hull become highlighted and you get an indicator giving you the general direction of the sub. Looks like the Tier 4 Locator skill, see what I mean?
So you totally knows a sub is interested in you.

<or is it better to depth charge them?
This is better.
DD and light-cruisers (all ships with depth charges), just need to pass on top of the sub, press "G" to launch the charges, and the sub is going to have a rough time.



Roughly the balance of power is: 

Subs own heavy cruiser
Because the heavy cruiser have no depth charge, the only thing they can do is to run away and call momma for help

Subs > > BB  
A BB can delay, cause some damage with air strike, but I feel that one on one, the BB is dead 90% of the time

DD > >  Subs
DD are very agile, and dodge your torp, while they can shoot you if you surface and depth charge you if you stay under.
So this time the DD will win 90% of the time

Light cruisers > Subs
Less agile and fast than DD so the subs have more chances, but I would still rather be in a light cruiser in a 1 vs 1 against a sub.

Sub  ?? CV
CV have some immunity to ping, so you have to lead torps like a DD would.
I have not played CV so unsure how they call strike on a sub, but CV being CV, I am sure they can drop something that can hurt :p 


Hope this helps

T.

 

[rapier_ape]

16 minutes ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

CV have some immunity to ping, so you have to lead torps like a DD would.
I have not played CV so unsure how they call strike on a sub, but CV being CV, I am sure they can drop something that can hurt :p 

Doubtful. WG has sunk so much money into developing submarines they will take drastic measures to make them forgiving, just like they did following the CV rework. A situation where players ragequit on subs because they have zero AA and routinely get wrecked by CVs would be patently unacceptable. 

[Lynx7386]

3 hours ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

I know what you are thinking.... but Looking good

Is about all this game does well, tbh.

[Lynx7386]

3 hours ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

The first thing you notice is how all the other ships look so BIG !! DD are looming over you. BB and CV are massive objects that fill the sky.

Which is why it's retarded that subs have worse surface concealment than destroyers.
 

3 hours ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

You can spend a fixed time underwater. This can be increased by equipment and skills but once you run out of time you have to surface and stay there.

Because wargaming's favorite players, battleships and carriers, cried about not being able to lay down the pewpew on the new ship type.
 

3 hours ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

You have a sonar that permits you to "ping" targets, and that will guide your torpedoes. Yes, your heard right, your torpedoes will turn and try to follow your targets. However when they get around 2,5km  -I think- they will stop honing to the target (i.e. they will not be able to turn anymore and go straight).

Because wargaming's developers have never picked up a history book and have never played a WW2 sub game before.
 

4 hours ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

I was ready to gorge myself on big juicy BB, the sun was shining, and life was looking amazing when I clicked "Battle"...

Reality kicked in when a fat-[edited]Vermont dodged my well guided torps !
I took it personally - obviously - and kept chasing her, while she gave me all her attention
At the end of the fight I managed to put 5 torps into her (yay baby), but she killed me with one air strike.

Wouldn't want to actually make submarines useful.  5 torps from a destroyer would've likely sunk that target, but 5 from a sub?  You're lucky to have scratched the paint.  For some reason, they think that just because we're firing from a different ship, our torpedoes should arbitrarily do less damage when they hit.  Because that's logical in this fantasy world WG has created.

And because they cried about not being able to pewpew subs, they were given aircraft, which we totally needed more of in this game >.>



 

[Wolfswetpaws]

Spoiler

1 hour ago, kyesac said:

First of all, thanks for the writeup.  I found it informative since I am not doing subs at the get go.

Questions for you:

As a sub, do you have time to make it to the 'back row' to find the BB campers?  Even in coop, red bots will move around on the 'back wall' trying to change position or get hung up on an island trying manuevers it really shouldn't be trying.

Did you find that your underwater time was sufficient for what you wanted to do? 

You hit the Vermont with 5 torps.  How much damage?  How is the flooding chances?

As the surface ship, did you 'see' the sub when it pings? 

How far out are torps spotted (same as surface ships)?

Seems to me a viable tactic is for a DD or cruiser to just park on a sub and force it to surface - or is it better to depth charge them?

Any feel for how many surface ships can or cannot fight a sub at all?

 

32 minutes ago, Tereva_Lostlagon said:

You are most welcome, so...

<do you have time to make it to the 'back row' to find the BB campers? 
Time, totally. It's more about finding a path that is free of DD & light cruisers.
It's part of the planning + being sneaky.
You have to avoid DD while looking for juicy targets (looking at you Russian BB camping a choke point :p ) 


<Did you find that your underwater time was sufficient for what you wanted to do? 
You get 9min and a bit (depending on equipment & skills).
Seems to be a decent amount of time assuming you surface when you can.
This is probably tricky. Too much time and subs becomes OP, to little and they won't perform

<You hit the Vermont with 5 torps.  How much damage?  How is the flooding chances?
If you manage to ping a target twice at the exact same place you do a LOT of damage (like hitting a citadel), if you don't you do very meh damage.
Pinging twice the same place is actually not so easy on real players (against bots that go straight a lot less challenging suddenly ;P )
With 5 Torps + 2 flooding I took about 30 maybe 40% of her health, so that still stung ;P 

<As the surface ship, did you 'see' the sub when it pings? 
When you get pinged by a sub, a section of your hull become highlighted and you get an indicator giving you the general direction of the sub. Looks like the Tier 4 Locator skill, see what I mean?
So you totally knows a sub is interested in you.

<or is it better to depth charge them?
This is better.
DD and light-cruisers (all ships with depth charges), just need to pass on top of the sub, press "G" to launch the charges, and the sub is going to have a rough time.



Roughly the balance of power is: 

Subs own heavy cruiser
Because the heavy cruiser have no depth charge, the only thing they can do is to run away and call momma for help

Subs > > BB  
A BB can delay, cause some damage with air strike, but I feel that one on one, the BB is dead 90% of the time

DD > >  Subs
DD are very agile, and dodge your torp, while they can shoot you if you surface and depth charge you if you stay under.
So this time the DD will win 90% of the time

Light cruisers > Subs
Less agile and fast than DD so the subs have more chances, but I would still rather be in a light cruiser in a 1 vs 1 against a sub.

Sub  ?? CV
CV have some immunity to ping, so you have to lead torps like a DD would.
I have not played CV so unsure how they call strike on a sub, but CV being CV, I am sure they can drop something that can hurt :p 


Hope this helps

T.

 

 

The ping-homing "lock" can be "broken" by the use of the Damage Control Party 
I looked into it, and CV's automatically trigger their DCP, and it lasts a while.

That said, it is entirely possible to have a team collapse the flank of the opposing team.  And Submarines can sail into that void and pursue the "back line" ships, including CV's.
Of course, CV's can try to sail away or otherwise maneuver.... but if a Submarine succeeds in getting close, all they have to do is spot for their team and let the team send ordnance to sink a ship.
And, if they have torpedoes loaded and can get a shot, so much the better.  Getting a ping-lock for torpedoes to home-in on might be problematic, so use "unguided torpedo mode" instead and aim well.

Several DD's can out-spot submarines.

CV's can damage submarines with aerial ordnance and with secondary battery guns (unless you're sailing a Saipan or a Sanzang, because they don't have secondary battery guns).
The problem is catching the Submarine on the surface.  Submarine aerial detection radius specifications favor the submarine, not the planes.
But, if a submarine is spotted and surfaced or at a shallow depth, then everything the CV can throw at the sub can damage it (provided the ordnance hits the submarine).
If a submarine is able to get deep enough, it will be immune to aerial ordnance.  (But, "Dive Capacity" is a limited and precious commodity for a Submarine.)

Hope this helps answer some questions.
 

[Lynx7386]

7 minutes ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

The ping-homing "lock" can be "broken" by the use of the Damage Control Party 
I looked into it, and CV's automatically trigger their DCP, and it lasts a while.

Can't have anything threatening WG's precious carrier kiddies.  Wouldn't want them to have to deal with torpedoes while they're practically afk nuking the other side of the map.

[Wolfswetpaws]

2 minutes ago, Lynx7386 said:

Can't have anything threatening WG's precious carrier kiddies.  Wouldn't want them to have to deal with torpedoes while they're practically afk nuking the other side of the map.

All sarcasm and speculation and joking aside, a mis-play of positioning my CV got me sunk by a Submarine that sailed through an area no longer covered by friendly ships.
Once the submarine was spotted, it was a pretty even match between the Submarine and my CV, and the Submarine did achieve at least two torpedo hits.
But, as I mentioned earlier, they were spotting for their team, and the three "bots" who were filling-in the team roster opened up on my CV (which they couldn't see otherwise).
That supporting gunfire shredded my CV's hull in a short amount of time.
The Submarine didn't even get enough time to re-load torpedoes and launch 'em.  It was over that quick.

Some people have made the comparison that (currently) Submarines are like "Light Destroyers". 
They have similar amounts of time that they can remain concealed (Diving Capacity versus Smoke-screen time), it's merely that the method of concealment is different.

[Sumseaman]

Ty for the post. WG seem to be on the right track. With all the additions coming in it looks like we'll be playing with those throttle and rudder keys all the more!

Why would anyone downvote the OP for that? Sour salties people....

[Lynx7386]

Two torpedoes, wow.   A whole 5-6k damage.

 

Let's face it, if it weren't for team support, you'd have wrecked that sub with ease.  He can't get citadels on you or even rely on homing torps because CV damage control party - an automatic, no charge limit ability - completely negates a subs offensive capability.

 

This is in no way balanced, and it was never a "fairly even match".

[XVirtusX]

Well, to be honest, I was away from WOWS for quite some months but this sub test made me return and test this new class.

I liked it for the most part, except the german sub is terrible weak compared with the american counterpart. I guess we will see more of the well known bias WG enforces on everything german.

I also liked the mechanics of ASW for BBs since I'm a BB main. Sometimes playing subs is quite boring and hunting them is more fun.

At least WG is putting some effort on balancing them before releasing it in the live server. It is a line that I will surely get.

[grorg]

Rediculous so now there's another ship I can't fight in my CA Wich is what I like to play, but no, no soup for you apparently.

     Why should I play a game anymore where I have no counter, CV is bad enough with unlimited planes.

     Really WG 

    

[THAC0E]

7 hours ago, grorg said:

Why should I play a game anymore where I have no counter, CV is bad enough with unlimited planes.

If you play just for yourself then I can see how you would feel this way, but it's a team game.  Play it as such and it will be much more fun for you.

[Princess_Daystar]

12 minutes ago, Snarky_Wombat said:

If you play just for yourself then I can see how you would feel this way, but it's a team game.  Play it as such and it will be much more fun for you.

Except hes right, cruisers get crapon by everything, they are even with a good team the least forgiving class already.

[THAC0E]

Sure, but then again I've heard that about every class in the game.  I don't have a problem but I don't try to play as a solo save the world hero.

But to bring it back to the threads intent - Subs are looking interesting, change is good after all.  I am hoping they make them feel more like playing in a sub though.

[grorg]

39 minutes ago, Snarky_Wombat said:

If you play just for yourself then I can see how you would feel this way, but it's a team game.  Play it as such and it will be much more fun for you.

   Lol if you trust your team in an online game, oh wait you're serious. 

    Well good luck with that my experience is your team will melt around you it's up to you to make a difference.

    When your team won't cap and won't leave the spawn point or melts around you how do you play as a team 

[grorg]

29 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Except hes right, cruisers get crapon by everything, they are even with a good team the least forgiving class already.

Thank you for this I thought I was insane 😂

[THAC0E]

Never said I trust them, I think you are missing my point.

[Wolfswetpaws]

8 hours ago, Lynx7386 said:

Two torpedoes, wow.   A whole 5-6k damage.

 

Let's face it, if it weren't for team support, you'd have wrecked that sub with ease.  He can't get citadels on you or even rely on homing torps because CV damage control party - an automatic, no charge limit ability - completely negates a subs offensive capability.

 

This is in no way balanced, and it was never a "fairly even match".

Also a 90 second cooldown.

Just so we're all on the same wiki page....
https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Consumables#Damage_Control_Party

Quote

Aircraft Carriers

Aircraft carriers have only two consumables, neither of which can be activated by the player. They activate automatically at need.

Damage Control Party

Just as with gunships, a carrier's Damage Control Party extinguishes fires, halts flooding, repairs damaged modules. It activates at need.

——  Details  ——  

				DAMAGE CONTROL PARTY
Carrier	Tier	Nation(s)	Duration	Cooldown	Charges
all	IV - X		60 seconds	90 seconds	Infinite

 

CAP Fighters

CAP Fighters are carrier-based fighters that orbit the ship and attack enemy aircraft that come within range. They are deployed automatically by the carrier in self-defense.

——  Details  ——  

Cap Fighters will move to and attack enemy aircraft "within range". That range depends on the relative vectors of the aircraft. Usually their targets are incoming strikes so the range is not important.

Notice that Patrol Fighters (a consumable of carrier strike squadrons) have more fighters than CAP Fighters, so having a strike squadron call Patrol Fighters near the carrier will strongly reinforce its air defenses for a time.

						FIGHTER
Type	Tier	Nation(s)	Duration	# Fighters[1]	Radius	Cooldown	Charges
all	IV-X		600 seconds	4	3.0km	40 seconds	4

 

 

[Princess_Daystar]

10 minutes ago, grorg said:

Thank you for this I thought I was insane 😂

You arent. Theres a reason super cruisers are so popular compared to regular cruisers(a few exceptions exist ofc.)

The only thing i think needs changing is the magical ability these torpedoes have to realign themselves to hit targets. They should do citadel damage etc.

And if losing the ability to rotate 90 degrees to hit a target means an increase in their ROF and torpedo travel speed then so be it.

[Tereva_Lostlagon]

12 hours ago, grorg said:

Thank you for this I thought I was insane 😂

 

12 hours ago, Princess_Daystar said:

You arent. Theres a reason super cruisers are so popular compared to regular cruisers(a few exceptions exist ofc.)

Not sure I agree with you on this guys.
Yes, super cruisers can be powerful (looking at you Alaska...), At the same time, I am doing fine with my Hindi & both Russian lines are working well too (managing to hit a citadel on the Petro feels like winning the lottery...).
In ranked a "classical" HE + hydro cruiser is powerful considering the small maps and amount of DD.
So overall, I do feel that cruisers' situation is improving.

The ones that are suffering at the moment are the BB. And the subs will be an additional threats.


Today, the game is favoring static gameplay too much for my own taste. I believe that the subs will make the game more dynamic, as camping by an inland is going to be more risky.
It's a good thing in my book, but we all like to play differently.

T.

[C4Cypher]

I'm not going to parrot the claim that secondaries should be returned to what they were pre-nerf, but as somebody who doesn't play BB ... I can understand why they should get an accuracy buff, secondaries (on all boats that have them) are an absolute joke. They're not a deterrent to anything.  I'm really tired and frustrated with hyper passive BB play.

[CapnCazuul]

Thanks OP for the post. Sounds like it might actually be interesting and possibly better thought out than many of us feared. We'll see.