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PotatoMD

My initial thoughts on the 10.5 rocket changes

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So I did a quick round of testing on the PTS, a few things to note about the session:

  • I faced bot DDs, which don't actively dodge. However, by moving my CV in their direction, I found they would maneuver strangely (they would turn away, slow down, etc.), so it will have to do
  • I only used the T8 CVs and the Hakuryu
  • I do not have access to any of the premiums
  • No captain skills nor modules, not that it matters
  • AA was turned off
  • Bot behavior was set to "High"

I found that the delay was different between nations, IJN, USN being the longest, KMS being the shortest. RN seemed to be faster than USN/IJN, but I need to do more testing to be sure. For USN/IJN, I had to lead about 1.5 ship lengths ahead of a full speed DD.

It was definitely much more difficult to hit even a slightly maneuvering bot, but it was still possible, although this could be just a case of me having to get used to it. You have to predict where they are going, which is much easier to see from the air. 

I will say the visuals are spectacular, on both ends (until the rockets hit, of course). It's kind of hard to tell how it will be to be on the receiving end, the bots are terrible. It's not that they aim poorly, they are literally incapable of accounting for the delay. It's like WG forgot that Co-op existed when putting in this change.

Overall, not a bad change. I don't believe it will actually change DD survivability in the long run, however. The main problem, spotting, is the same as ever.

ADDITIONAL NOTES

  • I noticed no difference in delay between tiers, although I only tested Shokaku and Hakuryu in this respect
  • No difference between plane loadouts either (i.e. Tiny Tims VS HVAR)
  • No difference in stock VS fully researched
  • Planes feel like they fly higher? Especially the Tiny Tim equipped ones? Maybe that's just me
  • EDIT: Did some testing with AA on. Planes do not take damage while in the strafe animation
Edited by PotatoMD
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Weak players will struggle, good players will be barely bothered. 

All this is about increasing DD survivability,  because they are the class to hunt submarines. 

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44 minutes ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Weak players will struggle, good players will be barely bothered. 

All this is about increasing DD survivability,  because they are the class to hunt submarines. 

Makes sense

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1 hour ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Weak players will struggle, good players will be barely bothered. 

All this is about increasing DD survivability,  because they are the class to hunt submarines. 

Exactly this; basically what happens now.

’A difference which makes no difference, IS no difference.’

This was a pointless, unnecessary change and a waste of dev time.

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3 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

This was a pointless, unnecessary change and a waste of dev time.

Don't underestimate the dark force.

 

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I find it incredible that this stupid hack was even necessary, as most good DD players, and that's who we should be talking about, know to angle their DD straight at incoming fighters so that they are not hit at all or maybe get 1-3 rocket hits.  It is the dumb, unobservant, lazy DD players who this hack was designed for.  Good players will REALLY take advantage of this to survive and then hunt down the enemy CV, which is not allowed to use secondary guns to defend itself.  If WG does not want CVs in the game, then refund the money, doubloons, steel, and whatever to CV owners and just be honest.

In my mind, the real problem with rocket planes and bombers is this:  they have no counter to massive AA.  Period.

Rocket planes and HE bombers are not allowed to reduce the number of AA crews on an enemy ship by attacking it and hitting it dead on.

During WW II fighter planes were sent in before bombers with the express purpose of strafing an enemy ship to reduce the AA crews before the bombers arrived.  Why can't our rocket planes do this to DDs while signaling to them with a giant red flag where we are gong to fire at them?

Don't believe me?  Check out this recent battle in Co-op:

shot-21_05.26_22_10.45-0885.thumb.jpg.27ebf74d87881b190063624160766f04.jpg

Look at the number of bomb hits by Ark Royal, not to mention the rocket hits, most of which were on just 4 BBs.  

Now look at the results of this firestorm:

shot-21_05.26_22_11.42-0401.thumb.jpg.5777c55c3a01e28341179110116035e9.jpg

Ok, well, I can't upload the other pics for some reason.  Technical problems with WG, but the point is that only maybe 3 AA guns were destroyed on these four BBs that I hammered over and over again in what would be the same as pouring HE spam on them with 4 and 5 inch guns.

Why are CV's not allowed to destroy or reduce enemy AA guns?  Why?

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18 minutes ago, Nordlaender said:

I find it incredible that this stupid hack was even necessary, as most good DD players, and that's who we should be talking about, know to angle their DD straight at incoming fighters so that they are not hit at all or maybe get 1-3 rocket hits.  It is the dumb, unobservant, lazy DD players who this hack was designed for.  Good players will REALLY take advantage of this to survive and then hunt down the enemy CV, which is not allowed to use secondary guns to defend itself.  If WG does not want CVs in the game, then refund the money, doubloons, steel, and whatever to CV owners and just be honest.

In my mind, the real problem with rocket planes and bombers is this:  they have no counter to massive AA.  Period.

Rocket planes and HE bombers are not allowed to reduce the number of AA crews on an enemy ship by attacking it and hitting it dead on.

During WW II fighter planes were sent in before bombers with the express purpose of strafing an enemy ship to reduce the AA crews before the bombers arrived.  Why can't our rocket planes do this to DDs while signaling to them with a giant red flag where we are gong to fire at them?

Don't believe me?  Check out this recent battle in Co-op:

shot-21_05.26_22_10.45-0885.thumb.jpg.27ebf74d87881b190063624160766f04.jpg

Look at the number of bomb hits by Ark Royal, not to mention the rocket hits, most of which were on just 4 BBs.  

Now look at the results of this firestorm:

shot-21_05.26_22_11.42-0401.thumb.jpg.5777c55c3a01e28341179110116035e9.jpg

Ok, well, I can't upload the other pics for some reason.  Technical problems with WG, but the point is that only maybe 3 AA guns were destroyed on these four BBs that I hammered over and over again in what would be the same as pouring HE spam on them with 4 and 5 inch guns.

Why are CV's not allowed to destroy or reduce enemy AA guns?  Why?

I'm not sure I follow. You can destroy AA mounts with planes, I've done it multiple times. Ark Royal rockets and bombs are light, so you probably didn't do enough damage

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2 hours ago, Cit_the_bed said:

Weak players will struggle, good players will be barely bothered. 

All this is about increasing DD survivability,  because they are the class to hunt submarines. 

Actually DD's are not the class to hunt for the majority of CV players because getting really good strikes in is next to impossible unless the DD player sails in a straight line making it easy.

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I've played a few matches against real DD players. Frankly the changes are all over the place.

To sum up my experience so far:

- US HVARs are the great winners of the change. They get heavily improved handling which allows them to adjust their lead and shorten their attack distance without any accuracy loss while maneuvering. Their larger than average dispersion along with decent target saturation actually helps them gain hits on fast maneuvering targets with relative ease, meaning they are basically just as strong against DDs as before if you pick your lead correctly. Relatively speaking this is an extreme buff to US CVs which are already on top of the food chain. Do not expect to be able to evade a US rocket salvo by a skilled CV player.

- US Tiny Tims are now essentially level bombers. Like level bombers they rise up before attacking which significantly helps in achieving deck and superstructure penetrations. As a trade off it is practically impossible to engage DDs with them as their firing delay is extreme. Overall HVARs remain the more versatile and thus superior option but it isn't necessarily a bad change if you rely on your DBs to pursue DDs anyway and use rockets on capital ships instead.
One funny thing about this is that it makes UK level bombers seem even less capable than they already are. US Tiny Tim rockets are now basically superior compared to them in every regard.

- Shokaku rockets now ironically suffer from too much accuracy. Hitting fast and maneuvering DDs is a practical impossibility. Even hitting straight lining DDs can prove to be a challenge. You could try to manually widen her reticle but then she doesn't saturate the target area enough to achieve good nor consistent hits. Their handling has also not been improved at all. Only bright side is that their attack preparation and reticle closing takes only about a single second, but that is irrelevant if you are unable to hit anything. This change shafts Shokaku so much that she can no longer be considered a meta T8 CV as it makes her rockets functionally useless.

I haven't tried German and UK CVs as they don't interest me. I'm also unable to test premium CVs as WG somehow failed to mirror live accounts to PTS.

Overall I'm unimpressed with the changes. While the idea to give DDs more counterplay options is definitely a good thing, relatively buffing the most powerful CV line with their capabilities practically unaffected and leaving it as the only viable one around is definitely not the way to do it.

Edited by El2aZeR
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CHALLANGE:  

Post rocket change.  On a training match.   After spawn, both ships go to opposite corners and then begin fight, so that we are as far away as possible.

Me in a Shima, with AA turned off, ripple firing my guns (so I'm spotted for furthest distance possible).

Opponent in any CV they want, but they can only use rocket planes.

1v1.

I predict I'll take less than 20% damage before I kill them.  

Anyone wanna take me up on this in 10.5?  (I'm not setup for the test server)

 

Rockets will be so easy to dodge that they might as well no longer exist, oh there are bullets in front of me, S-S-S-S-E-E...full dodge.   Oh, bullets are close to me...just continue straight at full speed.   

What a joke.  I want FULL refunds for every premium CV I own, and I own them all.

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@PotatoMD did you compare the Hak's reticle size from 10.4 to the 10.5 PTS?  Did they make it any smaller with the changes?  Was there a noticeable difference in the size of the reticle between the Shokaku and Hakuryu?

28 minutes ago, Nordlaender said:

I find it incredible that this stupid hack was even necessary, as most good DD players, and that's who we should be talking about, know to angle their DD straight at incoming fighters so that they are not hit at all or maybe get 1-3 rocket hits.  It is the dumb, unobservant, lazy DD players who this hack was designed for.  Good players will REALLY take advantage of this to survive and then hunt down the enemy CV, which is not allowed to use secondary guns to defend itself.

If these rocket changes are as significant of a nerf against DDs as they seem, perhaps all CVs secondary batteries should get the same accuracy as the German tech tree CVs?  It is understandable from a game balancing perspective that the only CVs currently that can defend themselves against being gunned down by a DD are the Germans, since their planes are the weakest tech tree CVs against DDs.  But it appears with these changes....no CVs airwings, even the Enterprise, will be good at sinking DDs anymore, even when they are being gunned down within secondary range.

Edited by Maddau
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1 minute ago, Maddau said:

@PotatoMD did you compare the Hak's reticle size from 10.4 to the 10.5 PTS?  Did they make it any smaller with the changes?  Was there a noticeable difference in the size of the reticle between the Shokaku and Hakuryu?

I don't know about Shokaku, but I play enough Hakuryu to say I noticed no difference in reticle size. 

I still think that the major issue is that CV drivers just need time to get used to it. After a few games, I managed to consistently land rockets on DDs while playing the Grand Battle game mode. Of course, the more rockets you have, the easier it is, so I may switch to HVARs from Tiny Tims on my Midway

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7 minutes ago, Maddau said:

If these rocket changes are as significant as they seem, perhaps all CVs secondary batteries should get the same accuracy as the German tech tree CVs?  It is understandable from a game balancing perspective that the only CVs currently that can defend themselves against being gunned down by a DD are the Germans, since their planes are the weakest tech tree CVs against DDs.  But it appears with these changes....no CVs airwings, even the Enterprise, will be good at sinking DDs anymore, even when they are being gunned down within secondary range.

You aren't supposed to have an answer for every threat the game can throw at you.  You have strengths, and weaknesses, and you should be weak against some ship.

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1 minute ago, Slimeball91 said:

You aren't supposed to have an answer for every threat the game can throw at you.  You have strengths, and weaknesses, and you should be weak against some ship.

CVs are weak against ships with strong AA (Halland, Worcester, Mino, Friesland, etc.)  A Midway with dozens of 5" guns should be able to defeat a half health Shima in a gunfight at under 10 km range.  Notice, I did not say should be immune to Shima torps, or any DD torps.  The only reason it currently cannot is game balancing.  Buffing non-German secondary batteries strikes me as a reasonable rebalance if the rocket changes make it next to impossible to do much else against a DD solo hunting a CV.  

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On 5/27/2021 at 4:43 PM, PotatoMD said:

I'm not sure I follow. You can destroy AA mounts with planes, I've done it multiple times. Ark Royal rockets and bombs are light, so you probably didn't do enough damage

How many examples do I need to supply to you over how many years before you get the message?

I can destroy more AA guns with a DD than I can with ANY CV out there.  I know because I check afterwards.

BTW, Ark Royal's rockets are not really different than those on Furious, so... 94 rocket hits  and no AA guns destroyed?  Really?

Edited by Nordlaender
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10 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

You aren't supposed to have an answer for every threat the game can throw at you.  You have strengths, and weaknesses, and you should be weak against some ship.

Please tell that to the BB players.

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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

I want FULL refunds for every premium CV I own, and I own them all.

 

 

giphy.gif

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2 minutes ago, Burnsy said:

 

 

giphy.gif

Yeah I'm sadly aware, first they take your money, then they rip you off later, thats the WeeGee business model.  

"F*** THE CUSTOMER!" is a great way to get repeat business.

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Well until these changes make it to the actual server I am considering them a nerf :Smile_sceptic: 

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1 hour ago, Slimeball91 said:

You aren't supposed to have an answer for every threat the game can throw at you.  You have strengths, and weaknesses, and you should be weak against some ship.

That is hilarious coming from you.  You campaign endlessly for DDs not to have to be bothered by CVs, then you pop out this gem...

 

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Oy vey, one teensy  little PT server test and CV's are already squealing like burning pigs caught in a wood chipper. :Smile_teethhappy:

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1 hour ago, Kesh_Lives said:

That is hilarious coming from you.  You campaign endlessly for DDs not to have to be bothered by CVs, then you pop out this gem...

Are you really implying that DDs are capable of dealing with every threat without CVs in the match?

Also do tell what CVs are unable to deal with then.

Edited by El2aZeR
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I've only watched Reimu's vid talking about the rocket change but from what I've seen, this doesnt do anything at all in most case. 

 

Link below:

 

 

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1 hour ago, AlcatrazNC said:

I've only watched Reimu's vid talking about the rocket change but from what I've seen, this doesnt do anything at all in most case. 

 

Link below:

 

 

"Thats literally like 2 seconds!"   ....except it was 5 seconds...

This guy is LITERALLY talking out his [edited]and cannot count...notice how half the rockets are missing a STATIONARY target anyway.   Anyone who has seen this in action knows DDs just became 100% immune to rocket fire.

Edited by Zenn3k
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30 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Anyone who has seen this in action knows DDs just became 100% immune to rocket fire.

It's the first day on PTS, it could change.  More to the point, you haven't even had a chance to learn to use it.  Once you get to practice with it you'll get better.

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