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GrimmeReaper

Thought on CVs, Not a Rant an Idea

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Yes I play CVs from time to time, I play DDs, Cruisers and Battleships too.  But my thought in regards to CVs is everytime they launch a squadron it should be treated similarly to the other classes firing their guns.  Your Ship Detection goes up enough that you are spotted for somewhere around 15 seconds (this excludes the fighter cap).  Launch of Bombers, Torps or Rocket Planes, should be treated like guns on a battleship going off, unless you are under cover.

1.  It will slow the CV down a bit.

2.  Gives opposing Team a chance to shoot at the spotted ship because it's Detection jumped from launch.

3.  Might give DDs at the beginning of a game in particular more of chance (really helps all classes) but CVs might not launch right away knowing they are spotted immediately, while they maneuver for some cover.

Edited by GrimmeReaper
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Well  - When surface ships fire, the detection range blooms out to the range of the main guns. 

As the Aircraft have no range limitation, the detection should bloom across the map.

Edited by Pebcac
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1 hour ago, GrimmeReaper said:

Yes I play CVs from time to time, I play DDs, Cruisers and Battleships too.  But my thought in regards to CVs is everytime they launch a squadron it should be treated similarly to the other classes firing their guns.  Your Ship Detection goes up enough that you are spotted for somewhere around 15 seconds (this excludes the fighter cap).  Launch of Bombers, Torps or Rocket Planes, should be treated like guns on a battleship going off, unless you are under cover.

1.  It will slow the CV down a bit.

2.  Gives opposing Team a chance to shoot at the spotted ship because it's Detection jumped from launch.

3.  Might give DDs at the beginning of a game in particular more of chance (really helps all classes) but CVs might not launch right away knowing they are spotted immediately, while they maneuver for some cover.

All this would do is guarantee CVs would just hang in the very back, just lowering their cycle times on devastating whoever they choose.  It'd be a nerf, but a small one to all but the most "special" of the CV plague.  Furthermore, at T10 their armor scheme is arguably better than any BB, so good luck making them pay for being spotted at this tier.  I'm sure you and many others have seen T10 CVs just bow tanking the entire opposing team without a second thought.  

I appreciate the original idea (I think it is), but WG and those associated want to stick to the narrative they are balanced.  And until that changes, feedback like this means nothing.  

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Here it goes...:Smile_teethhappy:

If I could introduce one thing it would be that CV aircraft are linked with the CV health:

1. WG have enough data that they can take the average amount of planes lost during a game for each CV.

2. They then link that average with the CVs health - adding a 20% buffer as this is something that needs a slow introduction, not a sledgehammer.

3. Now when a CV launches its ordinance it will have a chance of taking damage (like any other ship); it will have a chance if played badly that it will return to port (like any other ship).

4. A ship being attacked will at least feel it is doing something against the ship directly attacking it (which is why OWSF was removed).

5. The CV would have to play 20% worse than average to actually be sent back to port.

6. The destruction would not be seen as some magical plane-CV destruction link, but rather the CV player playing poorly (20% under the average) and losing the aircraft it has - therefore the CV is removed from the game (and returned to port).

 

I am completely open to anyone wishing to discuss things that would need to happen (certain buffs to CVs etc), I am sure that many will state why this wouldn't work. I am also happy if people just want to say no, because they are not open to any change. My suggestion is merely one meant to integrate the CV into the game with the elements it seems to be missing at the moment, and why I think many are hostile to it: The risk of having the ship HP eroded when attacking and someone feeling they are able to do something back, along with the chance that, with poor play, the CV could be sent back to port.

I know the topic is a sensitive one, I know passions run high. :Smile_honoring:

 

Edit: If you are unable to contain your toxicity, a downvote will do, thank you.

Edited by _WaveRider_
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Another bad idea from someone with a tenuous understanding of class balance. 

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IMO.. The biggest of all CV problems is the "unlimited planes" perception/reality.   Personally, I believe if WG continues to believe that AA should always be automated with little skill driven interaction, then plane limits need to be rebalanced back onto carriers.   Of course this would require a considerable, rebalancing of plane numbers and HPs CV to Cv. The problem is really - partially a balancing issue among the very best CV players who are skillful enough to game the AA system currently and a perception problem for those playing against the rest of the average or worse player base.   Players seeing plane losses mean something would likely have them feel a lot better about what AA does.. In reality CV players are punished for poor decisions, but it's not a transaction that is evident to a surface ship player being forced to counter with AI defenses and it's not very clear that he accomplished anything at all,  so nothing is perceived as lost for the CV player. Planes just keep coming, even though at times those squadrons become short or are not proper attack types for targets.. it still just feels like AA is doing nothing at all that leads to risk or damage to the CV player's attacks.  Players, regardless of that reality,  need to start seeing poor CV players OBVIOUSLY defanged and CV players do need to start being punished some more for risky attacks.  I think  damage output for CVs currently is balanced pretty well for what was the most dangerous capital ship of the era. So limits just need to be balanced to keep it where it is..  I really wonder if WG has access to stats that show exactly how much damage is done by regenerated" planes on average?  It would be interesting to know that? All this could be resolved with a functional skill based AA system that  creates more interest in planes buzzing around, but this seems a long way from any reality that WG is eyeing here?   Of course,  this does risk of course making the class not very fun for average CV players. Which as we have seen previously,  empties the ques of CVs.. Which,  while fine with a portion of the player base, renders a huge part of the core game play mechanics and rewards system of this game moot?      sorry for the wondering ramble...   

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35 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

All this could be resolved with a functional skill based AA system

The problem I see with this is that it puts optimum AA into the hands of people who have nothing better to do because they aren't moving up, shooting at other ships, having to deal with angling, damage control, torpedo evasion and the like. Who would be in the best position to interact on an ongoing basis with enemy aircraft? Campers and backline snipers.

There's a reason WG puts AA predominantly in the hands of the AI, and that's because a fully engaged player is too busy to take full, real-time control of the light guns against airplanes on top of everything else.

Now if you want to make the argument about the nature of the interface that lies between the player and the AA, the rules it should apply to what gets shot at and whether or not the current system is the best we have, I'm all ears.

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3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

The problem I see with this is that it puts optimum AA into the hands of people who have nothing better to do because they aren't moving up, shooting at other ships, having to deal with angling, damage control, torpedo evasion and the like. Who would be in the best position to interact on an ongoing basis with enemy aircraft? Campers and backline snipers.

There's a reason WG puts AA predominantly in the hands of the AI, and that's because a fully engaged player is too busy to take full, real-time control of the light guns against airplanes on top of everything else.

Now if you want to make the argument about the nature of the interface that lies between the player and the AA, the rules it should apply to what gets shot at and whether or not the current system is the best we have, I'm all ears.

Hence,  my rather lengthy pre-amble before the statement you picked out.   I've said from start of testing of the new CVs the player base would never like the AA system in AI hands, with the regenerating planes, and still after two years it is a fact.  Surface ships need more feedback as to what their AA is doing to a CV players impact if they themselves are not controlling it.   CV plane limits is the easiest, best way I know to do that, if you can't make a player controlled AA system workable.  With limits every single plane kill means something and players would know it and see its effect later in games.   "Regenerating planes"  was a mistake from day one.   It has disrupted the risk reward ratio for CVs considerably as compared to typical surface ship players transactions with each other, and they don't like it.    I think you could increase the risk for CVs and still leave them impactful with rebalanced plane limits,  and player base would be more inclined to accept the asymmetrical exchange, when they realized that CV players are impacted by doing dumb things.             

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22 minutes ago, iRA6E said:

 I've said from start of testing of the new CVs the player base would never like the AA system in AI hands,

But it's always been in AI hands. The old system by which you picked and clicked the squadron to be shot at has no meaning now that any one CV can only keep one plane type in the air at any given moment. Trust me, you also don't want to go back to the days when a CV could be deplaned, because that left your highest-points unit completely vulnerable and useless, and if the other player was a god with fighters and you were a struggling beginner, it could happen very early on in the battle. It was practically the equivalent of the CV being sunk outright. 

What might be interesting to see is if damaged planes had to undergo partial regeneration rather than automatically being fully fit for duty the minute they got back to the carrier. That would increase the liability on CV players who walked into heavy AA without necessarily losing the whole squadron. If you go back with six torpedo bombers in the red, you have to regenerate those torp bombers before they're ready to go again in proportion to the percentage of health they lost... and if you don't have another fully fit squad already on deck, that's going to impact when you can attack again. Maybe make aircraft repair a four-point skill, so that CV drivers have to choose between that and some other skill(s).

 

ETA - there's nothing I'd love more than to be able to hold down a button - say, ALT - swing my reticle toward the sky and mash the LMB to specifically focus my anti-aircraft, but if it takes my attention off of something more important and my ship gets torpedoed or BB devstruck, my team won't thank me.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu

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38 minutes ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

They should move CVs to WOT where they belong. My thoughts.

I was thinking more in terms of IL-2 Sturmovik  than WoT. :Smile_teethhappy:

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4 hours ago, SkaerKrow said:

Another bad idea from someone with a tenuous understanding of class balance. 

More like yet another idea to nerf CVs unreasonably because someone doesn't want to have to notice they exist...

 

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Or, you could just play the game and not worry much about CVs because very few are actually played anymore. I've been playing consistently for the past two days, taking advantage of the free Premium time to grind out a new DD line, and haven't seen a single CV. I saw one three days ago in a lower-tier game. It actually sank me... about 30 seconds before we won the game on points and when I was very low on health and just farming some final shell damage before the match ran out. If I hadn't cared about being spotted then it would have never found me, as it searched for me pretty much the entire match because I was stealth torping its team's BBs.

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That's not a good idea and it wont really fix anything. If the CV stays at the back of the map, he will have a longer cycle but it wont really change the issues of spotting or ship vs planes interaction.

 

If spotting is an issue WG could reintroduce the old mecanic where CV start with unloaded planes and have to wait few seconds like other ship having to wait for their main guns and torpedo to load.

 

It's always a fun time when you get spotted by CV in the first minute, he strikes you and whether it hits or miss, it doesnt matter because the splash will incapacitate your modules and force the reset on your first loading. You're a Shimakaze waiting for your torps to load ? Well too bad now you gotta wait another 2 min to load them.

 

But somehow they decided to scrap that idea because why should the superior class follow the same rule as other classes ?

Another idea WG could very well do is remove the features that tells you when your squadron is spotted so you cannot just casually use this with basic minimap positioning to locate a DD or any ship. But they'll most likely say it will break the game or make CV not fun to play or something something stealth AA, I dont know, they are full of imagination when it comes to CV balancing. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, CAPT_CORNHOLIO said:

They should move CVs to WOT WOWP where they belong. My thoughts.

 

T = Tanks

WP = WarPlanes

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

Or, you could just play the game and not worry much about CVs because very few are actually played anymore. I've been playing consistently for the past two days, taking advantage of the free Premium time to grind out a new DD line, and haven't seen a single CV. I saw one three days ago in a lower-tier game. It actually sank me... about 30 seconds before we won the game on points and when I was very low on health and just farming some final shell damage before the match ran out. If I hadn't cared about being spotted then it would have never found me, as it searched for me pretty much the entire match because I was stealth torping its team's BBs.

Yeah, played CV earlier, and won, but, the team did most of the work.  I did kill a DD, but he was on a sliver already, and not because of my rockets.  I did spot him for the team, though, and drop a fighter on him.

Just 1 CV per side, this match.  

I did end up #1 in the win, but, mainly because somehow all that was left on the other team 14 minutes in was the other CV, the sliver Jaguar, and a full-health Warspite.  I only had two teammates, but they finished the 3rd cap, and went CV hunting while I alternately burned and flooded the Warspite that was all alone.  Unless my spotting helped that much...oh, and I finished off that Jaguar that was on a sliver.  Looked later, I hit him for 984 damage with rockets, and fire from the rockets burned him for 40 more, so he only had 1024 damage left.  Hardly a 'CV devstriked him!!!!'....

 

 

Edited by Kesh_Lives

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These are not CV in current game play.

You should have been around years ago in RTS CV Play. You are given upwards of 100 planes in 10 or more squadrons. Launch all of them at once and fill your tactical map making battle.

WG eliminated that type of CV work several years ago in favor of simple kiddie 9 plane groups that get further nerfed or overcooked (Endless planes for example) etc.

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