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  A group of CV skippers from different clans, sat down to review the current state of CV's.  We've discussed how overlapping flack has become to overwhelming and plane stripping.  There is no way to even nip at the flanks of such a group as we can not turn out the rest of the squadron from the strike and just use the strike planes to do damage.  You lose a entire group to do 6k damage now, AAA was supposed to be a deterrent NOT out right punishment for daring to attack a ship.  Also it seems American and UK plane armor has become wet tissue paper for some of the most heavily armored and well built planes in the war.  We understand the need for "balance", and thought we'd have struck a good chord just before this patch, where we did lose planes, and would lose entire wings of a type if we made serious mistakes and got punished for it.  Now, we do everything right and we still are being punished harshly for it.  This is forcing CV players into tactics that are causing friction with teams because of these issues.  

  We are getting reported to lose karma as punishment because teams want us to do certain things, that because of these changes we just can't do anymore, if we want to have ANY planes left to effect the out come of the game.  If we do, do these things that are being asked (IE:such as trying to finish off a ship near a group, try to get a spot on a destroyer for our team. among others , etc) we turn into floating flak barges again ala the RTS days.  Or we get yelled at to keep trying to do things with 1 or two planes that we've managed to save up to try to spot with because we couldn't survive these patches flak to attack.  I remember the RTS days, I remember how those days ended, how manual dropping was removed, how auto dropping only was allowed, how fighter strafing ran off so many CV players.(edited)

  Take the MVR for example, it started off as a CV that rewarded a high level of skill for it's dive bombers, but now RNG has reduced needing any skill due to it's effect on bomb release and where the bombs impact.  The entire ship could be in the reticle and the bombs will figure a way to miss or hit something that will do no damage to the target.  This is one example of the many drastic changes that've been made.  That the regular player base don't see but the CV players know very well.  It's easy to keep hating on CV's when that's what's making someone popular.  CV's have started to become useless again, it seems like wg is intentionally drawing down the player base for the CV's.  This is on top of the repeated lowering of damage, and other nerfs.  They stack up after awhile.  People notice this!  Take the FDR of all CV's, it struggles now to get 2 strikes in for a launched strikes, you will lose 10 planes while trying this. That's 20min of waiting to get those planes back....for 1 min of work.  

No other ship has been treated to this extent.  We get punished for attacking by an automated system that attacks our ability to do damage.  Our ability to influence the game keeps getting it's ability to survive and operate changed, how it's targeting is changed and played with (with no notes or warning mind you).  It's players harassed by people who don't like the CV's, with WG doing NOTHING about it.


Now you've still got a dedicated group from those days spreading the same hate and the same message from those days doing the same things over and over.  They're easy to see, they're using the same chants, the same msg's, the same drama. Us?  All we are asking is please just balance this so that we can have fun as well.  We aren't asking for everything, we are just asking to have fun.

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51 minutes ago, MaxMcKay said:

We aren't asking for everything, we are just asking to have fun.

Easy solution: Go play World of Warplanes

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I have players shouting at me to "REMOVE CV"  even as I constantly get up-teired from T8 to T10, facing game after game where I lose an entire squadron just by spotting a DD waiting to ambush with flak, much less doing any damage to it, I'll loose entire squadrons even if I hit F when I see the first flak bursts.  I don't understand why I'm included in Tier 10 games because unless a Tier 8 ship is dumb enough to wander outside the flak bubble (and this is not to say that T8 AA is easy ... it's punishing) I have absolutely no ability to influence the outcome of the game beyond defending teammates with my own flak bubble. 

I'm insulted, told to get good, told how I ruin the game.  I've come to realize that they're right, I ruin the game they want to play, instead of the game I am trying to play, the game I am paying for ... I have no sympathy for their whining and insults.  I don't get to ignore classes I don't care to play, and I don't go crying every time I get torped by a DD who snuck across the map, or deleted by the T10 BB who can hit me from spawn as soon as the enemy CV spots me.  CV's are in the game, and the game needs to be balanced to include them.  If you want to play a game without them, go back to tier 2. Subs are coming, and I'll bet that the same people who abuse every CV player they meet, insult them in game and on the forums are going to be even more infuriated when the silent service interrupts their insular game of artillery shell patty cake.

Edited by C4Cypher
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MVR Nerf was stupid, I agree with you there. The ship was stupid OP, but adding RNG is never a good way to balance a ship. A damage nerf, or a reduction in the speed of the bombs as they are dropped would have been much better. RNG is the enemy of skill. In most other carriers, however, I still feel like the hand of God, especially when top tier. If there is an enemy ship, and I want to damage it, I will damage it. And since planes regenerate, I lose nothing by doing so. 

 

In my opinion, the way to fix carriers is to reintroduce limited plane reserves. If planes are limited, AA can be nerfed significantly. When every plane shot down matters, it is not necessary to shoot down as many planes. Limited planes also means that carrier players do actually suffer a permanent consequence from [edited]up, just as surface ship players do. With weaker AA and limited planes, skilled players will be more able to be effective in battle, and bad players will be actually suffer consequences for their [edited] ups. If a player sucks at carriers and fly into flack, that player deserves to be deplaned, just as a broadsiding cruiser deserves to get dev struck. However, good players should be able to avoid losing many planes with effective target selection and flak dodging. I recognize that there are currently situations where Flak appears seeming all around squadrons, leaving no opportunity for counterplay. This needs to be addressed. 

 

From the surface ship side, there is even less skill. The AA system is two buttons. On or off, Port or Starboard. If you are on low health, or in a ship with poor AA, and the CV wants to kill you, you will die, no matter how well you play. From the CVs perspective there is no difference in difficulty between killing a noob and killing a unicum. Limited plane reserves will not address this issue, however they will mean that even ships with poor AA can impact the CV, since even one plane lost has some meaning. Additionally, at the end of the game, when AA guns have been destroyed, consumables like smoke screens and DFAA have been used up, surface ships are low HP, and friendly ships are spread out across the map (with no overlapping AA), the CV will also likely have been weakened by plane attrition, keeping the balance more intact. Contrast this to the current system, where all the surface ships are suffering from the above, while CVs still have full squadrons and unlimited reserves.

 

In the current state, the CV becomes more powerful the longer the match goes on. This leads to CV players feeling useless for the first half of the match, and surface ship players feel powerless when the CV comes to finish them off at the end of the game. This is not a fun or skillful experience for anyone involved. By nerfing AA to a realistic level, and limiting plane reserves, this misdistribution of influence will be equalized, and player skill will determine, or at least be more influential, in all CV-Surface ship engagements. 

 

The current system is essentially a race between two automated systems: the damage output of the enemy teams AA guns and the speed at which your CV regenerates plane health pool. This is terrible design that does not reward good play nearly as well, nor punish bad play nearly as hard as surface ships do. This is why despite being reasonably competent in carriers, and recognizing that they are the most powerful class in the game, I find them boring to play, and frustrating to play against.

 

I actually think the current system is a downgrade from the old RTS. At least those were skillful, and fun once you got the hang of them.

 

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23 minutes ago, OceanLNR said:

MVR Nerf was stupid, I agree with you there. The ship was stupid OP, but adding RNG is never a good way to balance a ship. A damage nerf, or a reduction in the speed of the bombs as they are dropped would have been much better. RNG is the enemy of skill. In most other carriers, however, I still feel like the hand of God, especially when top tier. If there is an enemy ship, and I want to damage it, I will damage it. And since planes regenerate, I lose nothing by doing so. 

 

In my opinion, the way to fix carriers is to reintroduce limited plane reserves. If planes are limited, AA can be nerfed significantly. When every plane shot down matters, it is not necessary to shoot down as many planes. Limited planes also means that carrier players do actually suffer a permanent consequence from [edited]up, just as surface ship players do. With weaker AA and limited planes, skilled players will be more able to be effective in battle, and bad players will be actually suffer consequences for their [edited] ups. If a player sucks at carriers and fly into flack, that player deserves to be deplaned, just as a broadsiding cruiser deserves to get dev struck. However, good players should be able to avoid losing many planes with effective target selection and flak dodging. I recognize that there are currently situations where Flak appears seeming all around squadrons, leaving no opportunity for counterplay. This needs to be addressed. 

 

From the surface ship side, there is even less skill. The AA system is two buttons. On or off, Port or Starboard. If you are on low health, or in a ship with poor AA, and the CV wants to kill you, you will die, no matter how well you play. From the CVs perspective there is no difference in difficulty between killing a noob and killing a unicum. Limited plane reserves will not address this issue, however they will mean that even ships with poor AA can impact the CV, since even one plane lost has some meaning. Additionally, at the end of the game, when AA guns have been destroyed, consumables like smoke screens and DFAA have been used up, surface ships are low HP, and friendly ships are spread out across the map (with no overlapping AA), the CV will also likely have been weakened by plane attrition, keeping the balance more intact. Contrast this to the current system, where all the surface ships are suffering from the above, while CVs still have full squadrons and unlimited reserves.

 

In the current state, the CV becomes more powerful the longer the match goes on. This leads to CV players feeling useless for the first half of the match, and surface ship players feel powerless when the CV comes to finish them off at the end of the game. This is not a fun or skillful experience for anyone involved. By nerfing AA to a realistic level, and limiting plane reserves, this misdistribution of influence will be equalized, and player skill will determine, or at least be more influential, in all CV-Surface ship engagements. 

 

The current system is essentially a race between two automated systems: the damage output of the enemy teams AA guns and the speed at which your CV regenerates plane health pool. This is terrible design that does not reward good play nearly as well, nor punish bad play nearly as hard as surface ships do. This is why despite being reasonably competent in carriers, and recognizing that they are the most powerful class in the game, I find them boring to play, and frustrating to play against.

 

I actually think the current system is a downgrade from the old RTS. At least those were skillful, and fun once you got the hang of them.

 

I would go for the limited planes at the exact moment surface ships have limited torps and shells.  That they can only get shells and torpedo's they hit with.  Also those shells and torpedo's may be intercepted by an automated system that attacks those same shells and torps as they close on the ship they were fired at.  As only a surface ship has unlimited shells and torpedo's and faces no limitations or worries when it fires, while a CV must husband every plane it can preserve against a purely automated system it can not avoid that will attack them, and they will lose planes just in the attempt to damage their target.

Or we could add a new function of muzzle and barrel wear.  Where the very act of firing a surface vessels guns would diminish the ability for those guns to fire, so by late game the surface combatant who is skillful and playing smart will have guns that are still working and can kill the last of the enemy ships that are left.

  As someone who's actually played with these conditions it's hard to explain to others that don't understand that with AI AAA there is no way to attack a ship (no matter the players skill) without losing a plane(s).  That your punishing a player for playing a type of ship, by hampering it's ability to do damage period.  When people talk about HE spam from over an island, or unlimited stealth torps, or multiple BB citadels on another ship most times the answer is git gud.  Yet when a CV which has had it's alpha strike removed, and it's damage reduced over and over again.  The answer is remove it's ability to do damage mid to late game, if the player doesn't play at unicum levels.

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Bring back RTS:fish_viking:

It may have been broken, but at least it required skill to play and was more fun imo.

If not, there should be some way to make AA more immersive or require skill. Maybe have priority sector deal more damage but be smaller? Air search radar you can activate? Anything to make it less automated.

Although I'm not sure we want to go the route of the "other" game and have manual AA.

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Don't be surprised MVR ends up like GZ :Smile_teethhappy: Staying away from anything german :fish_sleep:

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1 hour ago, LastRemnant said:

Don't be surprised MVR ends up like GZ :Smile_teethhappy: Staying away from anything german :fish_sleep:

How the mighty are fallen

GZ, gone from "click and point" levels of broken (so much that WG took her back and refunded everyone)

to a glorified secondary cruiser with a flight deck

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17 hours ago, frankfletcher_1 said:

Bring back RTS:fish_viking:

It may have been broken, but at least it required skill to play and was more fun imo.

If not, there should be some way to make AA more immersive or require skill. Maybe have priority sector deal more damage but be smaller? Air search radar you can activate? Anything to make it less automated.

Although I'm not sure we want to go the route of the "other" game and have manual AA.

Think they should bring back the odd numbered CV's like they said they were working on back during the CV rework.  Those CV's were supposed to be the "specialty" CV's.  What that means we don't know lol.

RTS was murder on surface ships.  Also Strafing made more players walk away from CV's then it ever did anything to help them.  They took away manual drop, made auto drop the only option for some tiers.  Manual fire AAA would start knocking planes out of the air at 10km out or a touch more. Once the CV was denuded of planes you were a floating flak barge.  At that point the only way to balance that situation would be to have the surface vessels to have very limited torpedoes and shells for their main guns.  Every miss they don't get the rounds back, only direct hits they get the rounds/torps returned.  we could argue about having an AI system that could intercept the shells and torps as well.  You know like planes to keep it fair.

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I'm starting to improve at Tier 8 play, but one thing that frustrates me is the odd difficulty curve and how frustrating the trial and error nature of the game is at teaching how to play conservatively with planes,.  T4 AA is pitiful, I'd say it needs a buff, T4 play does little to teach players, both CV and other surface fighters how to properly adapt to CV play.  Surface ships gain minimal benefit from grouping together for air defense at that level (something they NEED to learn to survive against CV attacks at T6 and above), if a CV wants to pick on somebody at T4 ... there's damn little they can do about it.

Much like the discussion of the MVR nerf, is the question of what WG considers 'intended optimal gameplay' for both CV players and for defense against CV's ... if that is communicated clearly, then it might do something to resolve a lot of frustration.  If I'm supposed to remain completely passive (even attempts to scout can cost me half a squadron by an ambushing DD) during the first half of a match, fine ... I'll learn to play that way.  By the same token, I have much more sympathy for the DD or cruiser player who gets picked on at T4 (considering there's little to be done to stop air attack at that level) than I am of a T8 player who either wandered off on their own (singling themselves out for CV players hungry to earn any kind of damage) or a T8 player who, by virtue of attrition in a game, no longer belongs to a fleet capable of mounting a comprehensive AA defense.

I understand that this stuff is hard to balance, and the answers are not black and white. I suspect that part of the issue is the question of what the intended roles for the different ships are.  I get that DD players get frustrated when a CV prevents them from wandering away from cruiser and BB AA protection, and a CV who lets a DD slip behind his own team deserves the torping they get.  I also don't think we'll get complete player consensus as to what those roles should be.  It would just be good if we knew where that goalpost was.

Edit: I just learned about how ammunition costs work.  The difference between a round where I keep all of my planes and one where I get completely deplaned? 40, 000 credits ... does AA fire cost a ship anything?

lexcost01.png.597a2e8d660c7002495685e541db4549.pnglexcost02.png.d6e069283dedd1ca72295f838a564375.png

Edited by C4Cypher

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17 hours ago, MaxMcKay said:

Think they should bring back the odd numbered CV's like they said they were working on back during the CV rework.  Those CV's were supposed to be the "specialty" CV's.  What that means we don't know lol.

RTS was murder on surface ships.  Also Strafing made more players walk away from CV's then it ever did anything to help them.  They took away manual drop, made auto drop the only option for some tiers.  Manual fire AAA would start knocking planes out of the air at 10km out or a touch more. Once the CV was denuded of planes you were a floating flak barge.  At that point the only way to balance that situation would be to have the surface vessels to have very limited torpedoes and shells for their main guns.  Every miss they don't get the rounds back, only direct hits they get the rounds/torps returned.  we could argue about having an AI system that could intercept the shells and torps as well.  You know like planes to keep it fair.

Except for the Germans :Smile_trollface:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not the only one who builds for secondaries right?

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On 4/30/2021 at 8:05 PM, theLaalaa said:

Easy solution: Go play World of Warplanes

It would make more sense for those who hate cv go play a game that does not have cv and has not had cv since the beginning. 

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18 minutes ago, HallaSnackbar said:

It would make more sense for those who hate cv go play a game that does not have cv and has not had cv since the beginning. 

Hmm... lets think this statement through...

It would make more sense for those who hate cv (but want to play warships) to go play a game (other than World of WARSHIPS) that does not have cv....

than...

for one that wants to play warplanes to go play a game like World of WARPLANES.

Yes, I see your logic. It's iron-clad.

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