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Lord_Slayer

The Great War of Archimedes - 2021

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anyone heard about this movie?

Apparently its Yamato-class related

 

 

 

 

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Plot synopsis: Set in the 1930's, the headquarters of the Imperial Japanese Navy sets out to build the world's biggest battleship Yamato. Rear Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto is opposed to that plan. Isoroku Yamamoto attracts Tadashi Kai (Masaki Suda) who is a genius mathematician. Tadashi Kai discovers discrepancies related to the estimated cost to build the battleship. He tries to uncover a conspiracy in the military.

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Slightly old news; but I agree, despite it apparently being fictional, that it seems like an interesting story.

Considering the ship’s irreverent monicker as ‘Hotel Yamato,’ I’m sure Yamamoto would have preferred, and found much useful, two more Shokaku’s.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet

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36 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Slightly old news; but I agree, despite it apparently being fictional, that it seems like an interesting story.

Considering the ship’s irreverent monicker as ‘Hotel Yamato,’ I’m sure Yamamoto would have preferred, and found much useful, two more Shokaku’s.

I don't really see the value in Shokakus when Japan had effectively run out of planes.  At least the Yamatos could shoot something and may well have accomplished something at Leyte Gulf if her Admiral were so inclined.

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6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

I don't really see the value in Shokakus when Japan had effectively run out of planes.  At least the Yamatos could shoot something and may well have accomplished something at Leyte Gulf if her Admiral were so inclined.

At the beginning. Two more Shokaku’s at Coral Sea, Midway, or Guadalcanal would have better served Japanese interests than a Yamato still fitting out, or sitting idle at Truk.

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9 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

At the beginning. Two more Shokaku’s at Coral Sea, Midway, or Guadalcanal would have better served Japanese interests than a Yamato still fitting out, or sitting idle at Truk.

Did they even have enough planes to fit out two extra Shokaku's in their fleet at Coral Sea, Midway or Guadalcanal?  I mean I guess empty CV could have been useful at Midway to serve as alternate runways so the pilots wouldn't have the ditch.  But as I understand it, Hiryū even with the planes from 3 other sisters at Midway had a badly shot up strike package after her second strike on USS Yorktown.

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Ok, story looks interesting, I would watch it. Yamato scenes feel oddly familiar, is that re-used material from another movie?

1 hour ago, Sventex said:

I don't really see the value in Shokakus when Japan had effectively run out of planes.  At least the Yamatos could shoot something and may well have accomplished something at Leyte Gulf if her Admiral were so inclined.

Then use the money to build and train 3 or 4 replacement air wings. Battleships proved to be most useless during the war, they achieved nothing. The strategic conception for the decisive battle also proved to be outdated, a lot of wasted resources for a country with not enough resources to waste

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16 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Ok, story looks interesting, I would watch it. Yamato scenes feel oddly familiar, is that re-used material from another movie?

Then use the money to build and train 3 or 4 replacement air wings. Battleships proved to be most useless during the war, they achieved nothing. The strategic conception for the decisive battle also proved to be outdated, a lot of wasted resources for a country with not enough resources to waste

 

Japan did make a Yamato movie 16 years ago, which no doubt influenced this one.  Especially since it's depicting the same doomed Operation.  But it must be said the effects from 2005 don't hold up.

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And also money does not instantly buy you more aeronautical industry overnight.  Their dockyards could build the Yamatos, the divided Japanese air industry could not just expand overnight.  They were hampered by politics as the Army and Navy had their own air branches which resulted in the bizarre Duplicate Research Efforts.  Planes are time consuming to build, are expensive and often require special raw materials to keep the weight down.  Money almost becomes a meaningless concept with Japanese military spending was over 100% of their national GDP.

Edited by Sventex

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3 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

At the beginning. Two more Shokaku’s at Coral Sea, Midway, or Guadalcanal would have better served Japanese interests than a Yamato still fitting out, or sitting idle at Truk.

Or Pearl.

They wouldn't have had to wait & decide to cancel the 3rd wave that was planned (or even throw in a 4th wave)...could have had it (them) right on the heals of the 1st 2.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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18 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Or Pearl.

They wouldn't have had to wait & decide to cancel the 3rd wave that was planned (or even through in a 4th wave)...could have had it (them) right on the heals of the 1st 2.

Conversely after Mutsu blows up in harbor, Japan would be down to a single decently armed Battleship.  Given Japanese carriers had a nasty tendency to get sunk from only 2 hits, you could see a Japanese Navy that vastly more fragile that gets decapitated in battles extremely quickly.  By Leyte Gulf with Japan practically out of planes, their fleet would nearly have nothing to attack the convoys apart from the very slow Battleships that can't withstand torpedo strikes.  They would have an enormously brittle fleet.

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42 minutes ago, Sventex said:

Conversely after Mutsu blows up in harbor, Japan would be down to a single decently armed Battleship.  Given Japanese carriers had a nasty tendency to get sunk from only 2 hits, you could see a Japanese Navy that vastly more fragile that gets decapitated in battles extremely quickly.  By Leyte Gulf with Japan practically out of planes, their fleet would nearly have nothing to attack the convoys apart from the very slow Battleships that can't withstand torpedo strikes.  They would have an enormously brittle fleet.

Yeah...but the extra damage they could have hypothetically caused at Pearl w/2 extra carriers could have destroyed dockyards & fuel supplies & more ship damage than they already did & hampered US abilities earlier in the war to get what they could repaired & be such a force throughout that Japan maybe wouldn't have lost so many of their pilots by that time & had more favorable outcomes in the other battles leading up to that point.

I know they had at least 1 more wave of planes that were scheduled to attack Pearl...not sure if that was the extent of their reserves or if they had enough pilots to fill another extra wave...if not then an extra CV would have been a waste to have w/out the pilots to man the planes...but if assuming all of the resources spent in building the Yamato were available to build more planes & train more pilots then maybe...of course that left out the resources to actually build the 2 extra CVs but even 1 more CV & the squadron to fill it to go along w/the originally planned extra wave.

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38 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Yeah...but the extra damage they could have hypothetically caused at Pearl w/2 extra carriers could have destroyed dockyards & fuel supplies & more ship damage than they already did & hampered US abilities earlier in the war to get what they could repaired & be such a force throughout that Japan maybe wouldn't have lost so many of their pilots by that time & had more favorable outcomes in the other battles leading up to that point.

I know they had at least 1 more wave of planes that were scheduled to attack Pearl...not sure if that was the extent of their reserves or if they had enough pilots to fill another extra wave...if not then an extra CV would have been a waste to have w/out the pilots to man the planes...but if assuming all of the resources spent in building the Yamato were available to build more planes & train more pilots then maybe...of course that left out the resources to actually build the 2 extra CVs but even 1 more CV & the squadron to fill it to go along w/the originally planned extra wave.

No ship or dockyard was critical to the Pacific War at Pearl.  What happened anyway was that the dockyards at Pearl were occupied during the fixing the Battleship fleet at Pearl which did not end up playing a large role in the war anyway.  And the oil supplies at Pearl are well spaced out and hard to destroy.  Even if the tanks were punctured by machine gun fire, the oil isn't going anywhere, it can be hosed back up.

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17 hours ago, Sventex said:

I don't really see the value in Shokakus when Japan had effectively run out of planes.  At least the Yamatos could shoot something and may well have accomplished something at Leyte Gulf if her Admiral were so inclined.

 

17 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

At the beginning. Two more Shokaku’s at Coral Sea, Midway, or Guadalcanal would have better served Japanese interests than a Yamato still fitting out, or sitting idle at Truk.

 

17 hours ago, Sventex said:

Did they even have enough planes to fit out two extra Shokaku's in their fleet at Coral Sea, Midway or Guadalcanal?  I mean I guess empty CV could have been useful at Midway to serve as alternate runways so the pilots wouldn't have the ditch.  But as I understand it, Hiryū even with the planes from 3 other sisters at Midway had a badly shot up strike package after her second strike on USS Yorktown.

 

Base design for Yamato was in the 30s. Keel was laid down in 1937. 5 years later in 1942 she is operational.

Shokaku: Keel liad down in 1937. 4 years later she is operational in time with her sister to go to Pearl Harbor.

In less time then it took the Yamato to become operational, they could have used the building sites to build 2 more CVs, all done before the war occurred.

 

as for building the aircraft, in 1944, 3 years into the war, Japan built nearly 4,000 Zero fighters. That is during wartime with material shortages. We are talking about ships and aircraft being built before the war and the resulting shortages. While they may not have been as highly trained as the Akagi/Kaga/Sohryu/Hiryu flight crews, they would have been at least as skilled as Shokaku/Zuikaku flight crews.

 

 

15 hours ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

Or Pearl.

They wouldn't have had to wait & decide to cancel the 3rd wave that was planned (or even throw in a 4th wave)...could have had it (them) right on the heals of the 1st 2.

That would all depend on when the ships had completed their trails and were considered operational.

Zuikaku was operational in late September. That meant that her crew only had two months to fully acclimate themselves to their new ship, before the Fifth Carrier Division sailed to Pearl. That's just the ship's crew.

In order for our 2 additional Shokaku's to take part in Pearl, they would have had to have been laid down at the same time as the first 2. 

Shokaku was laid down first, and Zuikaku following 5 months later in a separate yard. Assuming the 2 additional were laid down before at at the same time as Zuikaku, they could participate in the Pearl attack. However, any delays would likely prevent then from sailing, even if considered operational in the days before the fleet set sail as they would have had no time to work up and train with the fleet.

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19 hours ago, Sventex said:

Did they even have enough planes to fit out two extra Shokaku's in their fleet at Coral Sea, Midway or Guadalcanal?  I mean I guess empty CV could have been useful at Midway to serve as alternate runways so the pilots wouldn't have the ditch.  But as I understand it, Hiryū even with the planes from 3 other sisters at Midway had a badly shot up strike package after her second strike on USS Yorktown.

The Japanese had enough aircraft to fill two additional carriers out, even if some of these would have been older planes that were obsolescent.  What they didn't have were enough pilots to fly them.   

They could have had the pilots had their training system not been so pedantic and typically Japanese OCD.  For example, any failure, even a small error or mistake was often enough to get a prospective pilot washed out of the program--particularly on the enlisted side.  Enlisted who failed were sent to mechanic schools and such to become ground maintenance crew while officers were relegated to administrative jobs where their career was essentially over.  These candidates and the point to which they were trained often were far better than pilots trained after Midway where the IJN had to massively lower standards to replace the lost pilots and air crew.

As for Hiryu, both strikes on Yorktown were decimated by the US CAP.  Both were met well away from the carrier and worked over by Wildcats for as much as twenty minutes resulting in heavy losses. (sorry, feeling lazy and don't want to get Lundstrom off the shelf to look up the exact losses but they were unsustainable).

 

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6 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

In order for our 2 additional Shokaku's to take part in Pearl, they would have had to have been laid down at the same time as the first 2. 

That's kinda what I was thinking about...in lieu of Yamato being built...

6 hours ago, Lord_Slayer said:

Base design for Yamato was in the 30s. Keel was laid down in 1937. 5 years later in 1942 she is operational.

Shokaku: Keel liad down in 1937. 4 years later she is operational in time with her sister to go to Pearl Harbor.

In less time then it took the Yamato to become operational, they could have used the building sites to build 2 more CVs, all done before the war occurred.

^^^Basically what you said there.

 

All hypothetical of course but assuming that if they had decided to make the 2 extra CVs instead of the Yamato (or realistically speaking at least 1 more of the CVs in that time...but maybe 2...not versed enough in the history to know myself what capacities/abilities they had for that adventure...bit if they had... I'd assume)  that they would have increased the number of pilots they were training (not lowering the standards mind you...but allowing more...many more...to try out in the 1st place...giving them more candidates that fit the standards by the time the ship/s were built).

I was conjecturing 1 extra squadron/wave on top of the 1 they held back...but w/the 1 they held back & 2 more CVs worth of planes...they probably could have flattened most of the port & finished off a lot of the ships that were able to be repaired to the point that most weren't repairable at all.

Of course...it may have resulted in a backfire to where the US decided to just declare most of what was at Pearl totalled & just a skeleton crew to try to salvage what little there may have been to salvage & the crews that actually spent all those months repairing what was at Pearl would have been available to start building more CVs at other facilities quicker (,not that they built CVs at Pearl...but just hypothesizing all those that were running the salvage operations to be available for that kind of an operation as opposed to the effort spent salvaging what was at Pearl.

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8 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I was conjecturing 1 extra squadron/wave on top of the 1 they held back...but w/the 1 they held back & 2 more CVs worth of planes...they probably could have flattened most of the port & finished off a lot of the ships that were able to be repaired to the point that most weren't repairable at all.

In the Battle of Pearl Harbor the Japanese only used 51 dive bombers armed with 550lb bombs.  That's only the equivalent payload of 5 Flying Fortress bombers.  Even if they added a few more squadrons, there's no damn way a port can be flattened by a dozen more bombs.  Even fleets of heavy strategic bombers struggled to flatten port facilities as the British tried to bomb Scharnhorst and Gneisenau while they were drydocks multiple times, causing only negligible damage to the ships and dockyards.  Understand that Naval Aviation is weak, their payloads are small.

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54 minutes ago, Sventex said:

In the Battle of Pearl Harbor the Japanese only used 51 dive bombers armed with 550lb bombs.  That's only the equivalent payload of 5 Flying Fortress bombers.  Even if they added a few more squadrons, there's no damn way a port can be flattened by a dozen more bombs.  Even fleets of heavy strategic bombers struggled to flatten port facilities as the British tried to bomb Scharnhorst and Gneisenau while they were drydocks multiple times, causing only negligible damage to the ships and dockyards.  Understand that Naval Aviation is weak, their payloads are small.

 

This is true, to a point.

Yes, you can't destroy the drydocks, the most you could do is torpedo the caisson at the entrance and flood the dock. The dock is then useless until the caisson is replaced/repaired.

You could destroy the workshops. Take out the workshops damages and destroys the tools and machinery needed to repair ships.

Of everything there at Pearl, the Oil Tanks would have been easiest to destroy. Bombs and strafing runs could open holes in the tanks and start fires that would be very hard to put out. With no fuel left at Pearl, the fleet would be forced to pull back to the West Coast. Even if staying in Pearl, their ability to go out as a fleet would be hampered by lack fuel, having to come from the West Coast by tanker. This means no fleet moving to Coral Sea, no Doolittle Raid, and possibly no Midway defense.

 

As for Gneisenau, she was effectively taken out of the war while in drydock with a magazine hit. A lucky hit, but hit all the same.

 

 

On a side note:  I find it very interesting that the Japanese effectively ended the reign of the Battleship at Pearl Harbor with their Aircraft Carriers, and yet were depending on their Battleships for the decisive battle between the US and Japanese, The battle that never came.

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4 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

As for Gneisenau, she was effectively taken out of the war while in drydock with a magazine hit. A lucky hit, but hit all the same.

Ah, I was referring to the time that prompted the Gneisenau to preform the Channel Dash.  She was being bombed in France but the bombs weren't exactly doing much to put her out of action, it was more of an annoyance.  But I suppose the continuous bombing finally had an effect.

5 minutes ago, Lord_Slayer said:

. Bombs and strafing runs could open holes in the tanks and start fires that would be very hard to put out. With no fuel left at Pearl, the fleet would be forced to pull back to the West Coast.

And if you look at the Pearl Harbor fuel tanks, you can see how they are well separated with bulkheads that would prevent a spill or fire to effect it's adjacent fuel tank.  The Japanese would have to hit each fuel tank individually and unless the fuel is burned away, they can just pipe the oil back into a tank once it's been spilled into it's bulkhead.

Pearl-Harbor-Oil-Containers-Wide.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, Sventex said:

1- Ah, I was referring to the time that prompted the Gneisenau to preform the Channel Dash.  She was being bombed in France but the bombs weren't exactly doing much to put her out of action, it was more of an annoyance.  But I suppose the continuous bombing finally had an effect.

2- And if you look at the Pearl Harbor fuel tanks, you can see how they are well separated with bulkheads that would prevent a spill or fire to effect it's adjacent fuel tank.  The Japanese would have to hit each fuel tank individually and unless the fuel is burned away, they can just pipe the oil back into a tank once it's been spilled into it's bulkhead.

Pearl-Harbor-Oil-Containers-Wide.jpg

 

Start w/#2 1st (Thanx for the visual btw)..you brought that up earlier but the photo does clarify what you meant well...but they could have put a dent in the supply w/all the planes they would have had by shooting them all up & bombing them afterwards...but w/that layout (& each having it's own bulkhead) you're right...they surely wouldn't have been able to take it all out.

As for #1...What prompted the Channel Dash (the final straw after all the "negligible damage" attacks) was a suicide mission by an RAF plane that actually stuck a torp*** into the Gniesenau & damaged it significantly enough that it was listing & in danger if capsizing (didn't hit any dangerous ammo reserves or anything that would have detonated it...& I'm sure it was easily pumped out & the hole patched up afterwards...but apparently it found a sweet spot)...

The bay they were in at he time had a very tall mountain/hill/whatever...that was too high for an attack to allow the plane to be able to pull back up & escape after making a run w/out hitting the hill (not to mention a huge AA battery in the area) so it was known by the pilots that it was a suicide run as soon as they started their dive...

To the credit of the German commander there...even at a time that they were unsure whether they would be able to stop the Gniesenau from capsizing the commander ordered men to fish the aircrew out of the water & had them placed on deck w/a full honor guard for their bravery.

This was from a book that I'm brain farting on the alternate name right now...but it's original title was "Fiasco" & it was specifically about the Channel Dash (amazingly good read).

***Been a few years since I read it (although I read it a few times...& referenced it a bit in the forums then) & thinking about it now it seems that 1 torp would not have been that potent so there may have been more than 1 plane & 1 torp...but my memory is believing it was just 1 plane...not sure if they were able to launch more than 1 torp but believe not.

There may have been mitigating circumstances (that I don't specifically recall presently) that the Gniesenau was under repairs that left it in a position or condition that 1 torp was able to do that by itself (a bunch of hatches left open for convenience of the work crews or some such...maybe?).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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6 minutes ago, Sventex said:

And also money does not instantly buy you more aeronautical industry overnight.  Their dockyards could build the Yamatos, the divided Japanese air industry could not just expand overnight.  They were hampered by politics as the Army and Navy had their own air branches which resulted in the bizarre Duplicate Research Efforts.  Planes are time consuming to build, are expensive and often require special raw materials to keep the weight down.  Money almost becomes a meaningless concept with Japanese military spending was over 100% of their national GDP.

Yes OK, even if there were nothing better to do with the resources than to build Yamato, it was still a bad decision. Anything else, even mundane merchant ships, would have proved more useful.

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On 4/30/2021 at 1:19 PM, Estimated_Prophet said:

Slightly old news; but I agree, despite it apparently being fictional, that it seems like an interesting story.

Considering the ship’s irreverent monicker as ‘Hotel Yamato,’ I’m sure Yamamoto would have preferred, and found much useful, two more Shokaku’s.

"A hotel for incompetent admirals."

I know hindsight is 2020, but Japanese Battleships were IMO, the costliest, most useless ships that served in WWII.  Japan spent tremendous resources over the decades for them and they saw next to no action nor utility.  Even in the glory days in the early stages of the Pacific War, when the Kido Butai ran wild, their Battleships that weren't from the ancient Kongo-class weren't there with them.  They couldn't keep up with Carrier operations.  Fuso, Ise, Nagato, and even the Yamato-class Battleships were nothing more than fuel, steel, and manpower sinks for a country that couldn't afford resource sinks.

 

When Musashi was lost at Leyte Gulf in 1944, the army was furious at the navy that the super expensive ship never fired her main battery at any enemy ship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Fuso, Ise, Nagato, and even the Yamato-class Battleships were nothing more than fuel, steel, and manpower sinks for a country that couldn't afford resource sinks.

 

An argument can be made that every Japanese carrier was nothing more than fuel, steel and manpower sinks for a country that couldn't afford resource sinks.  Their fleet was barely a help to them in the land invasion of China and they were never going to beat the United States Navy.  The IJN Fleet contributed to Japan's defeat by starving it of resources with every ship in it's arsenal.

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10 hours ago, Sventex said:

An argument can be made that every Japanese carrier was nothing more than fuel, steel and manpower sinks for a country that couldn't afford resource sinks.  Their fleet was barely a help to them in the land invasion of China and they were never going to beat the United States Navy.  The IJN Fleet contributed to Japan's defeat by starving it of resources with every ship in it's arsenal.

They were going to need a navy with Japan seeing America as an eventual enemy long before WWII.

In actual WWII use the Carriers got Japan as far as they did in the Pacific.  Throughout all the highs of their early success, their Battleships that weren't fast enough to escort their Carriers were 100% useless.  Even their Yamato-class was 100% useless.

 

The army wasn't going to get anywhere when it's cut off from Japan and stuck in the quagmire in China.

 

I guess the real detractor for Japan is an ultra nationalist government hellbent on foreign expansion driving it to eventual war with various powers in the world.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

They were going to need a navy with Japan seeing America as an eventual enemy long before WWII.

No Navy is perhaps the better option against the US.  A dedicated anti-navy oriented Air Force alone might be the better investment when defending the Japanese Home Islands than having a Navy that can't possibly win.

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