So if secondary cruiser is now a thing, how about giving the German supercruisers that back?

[BlackAngelCom]

I recall the exact same thing being said about Siegfried in particular before cruisers lost all useful secondary battery skills with no compensation for that ship.

Not that secondary build was particularly good on that ship, but this basically a rip off.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/145

"

X NAPOLI: 

• Sigma parameter increased from 1.9 to 2.05 
• Secondary battery parameters were changed:
  • 152 mm guns' reload time reduced from 8 to 7.2 s; 
  • 90 mm guns' reload time reduced from 3.5 to 3.2 s;
  • Their accuracy has been improved: now the secondary battery of Napoli will be more accurate than that of any other ship in the game. 

In her concept, Napoli is an armored cruiser with decent concealment, powerful main battery guns, as well as an accurate secondary battery which has a long range for her class and is equipped with SAP shells. As the first test stages showed that her secondaries were not as powerful as was planned, we adjusted their parameters accordingly. These changes will stronger emphasize the concept of Napoli as a cruiser with an effective secondary battery"

 

 

[_WaveRider_]

They probably took it away from one line, so they could make it a thing on the 'new' line? 

[VesseI]

They say they are "monitoring". 🤣

[Ranari]

1 minute ago, Hukom said:

They say they are "monitoring". 🤣

I've been parsing the actual performance of secondaries for a few years now, and I can tell you that WG is not in tune with their real-world results. They have stated that they do not like free damage that a player doesn't have to work at, but at the same time they're not considering the massive captain investment that players have to take, as well as the risk that they have to take in order to get it. Secondaries can be extremely powerful and not game breaking at the same time because of the risk that players have to make in order to achieve it.

[Mr_Argamas]

Even with the best accuracy, 90mm secondaries at T10 won't even pen a destroyer. They only add fire starting potential.
Siegfried and Agir have 128mm guns with German HE penetration bonus...   Napoli may enjoy better accuracy, but that will not necessarily allow her to deal more damage because as a lot of shells won't pen anything. Wait & see, I guess.

[Qyygle]

20 minutes ago, Mr_Argamas said:

Even with the best accuracy, 90mm secondaries at T10 won't even pen a destroyer. They only add fire starting potential.
Siegfried and Agir have 128mm guns with German HE penetration bonus...   Napoli may enjoy better accuracy, but that will not necessarily allow her to deal more damage because as a lot of shells won't pen anything. Wait & see, I guess.

The notes say directly Napoli's secondary battery is using SAP. HE pen won't apply, it might be enough to push the 90mm's into usable territory. Definitely no fire though

[Rouxi]

2 minutes ago, Qyygle said:

The notes say directly Napoli's secondary battery is using SAP. HE pen won't apply, it might be enough to push the 90mm's into usable territory. Definitely no fire though

They only pen 26mm which makes them mostly worthless at T10 since most people won't sit broadside to let you get superstructure hits.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

Agir / Siegfried still have better secondaries range than Napoli.

7.95km stock.

 

Napoli

7.3km stock, and she's a Tier X while the two German Super Cruisers are Tier IX.

OP, you seriously overestimate the usefulness of the Italian 90mm gun.  You can also bounce SAP.

 

[Mr_Argamas]

2 minutes ago, Qyygle said:

The notes say directly Napoli's secondary battery is using SAP. HE pen won't apply, it might be enough to push the 90mm's into usable territory. Definitely no fire though

Oh, I missed that, sorry.

It's going to be a brand new concept then. Better pen/accuracy, but no fires and subject to ricochet/angles. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[EyE_dYe_QuIck]

5 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

They probably took it away from one line, so they could make it a thing on the 'new' line? 

After all this time . . .  you still use probably .  there is no probably about it .  

[Helstrem]

6 hours ago, Ranari said:

I've been parsing the actual performance of secondaries for a few years now, and I can tell you that WG is not in tune with their real-world results. They have stated that they do not like free damage that a player doesn't have to work at, but at the same time they're not considering the massive captain investment that players have to take, as well as the risk that they have to take in order to get it. Secondaries can be extremely powerful and not game breaking at the same time because of the risk that players have to make in order to achieve it.

Are you parsing the damage done by secondaries or the performance of secondary specced ships?  The first option isn't going to be seen as relevant by WG because secondaries aren't the ship.  It is going to be the ship's overall performance that matters.  Most people who post here about secondaries ignore everything other than the secondaries, but taking the secondaries out of context like that makes the whole conversation pointless.

[Telastyn]

2 hours ago, Mr_Argamas said:

Oh, I missed that, sorry.

It's going to be a brand new concept then. Better pen/accuracy, but no fires and subject to ricochet/angles. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.

Unlikely. WG will nerf it until the stats look good enough to sell the ship, but won’t actually do much unless you’re a Unicum in ideal circumstances.

Unless of course it’s just a “special” ship rather than a premium. Then it’ll actually be effective until enough people dump coal/steel/RP for it, then will be hard nerfed (sap pen angles? RoF? Sigma?).

[_WaveRider_]

2 hours ago, EyE_dYe_QuIck said:

After all this time . . .  you still use probably .  there is no probably about it .  

Ummm, all this time?

Pretty sure the dev blog indicating the secondary buff that @BlackAngelCom linked has todays date on it.

But yes - the changes announced in todays blog moves the secondary buff from 'probably'.......to 'definitely - probably', unless they change it back again (as it is in testing - which isn't beyond the realm of possibility as they did the same to the German Cruisers). 

[_WaveRider_]

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

LOL.  Somebody gave a thumbs down to my post about overall ship/spec performance being what matters, not secondary performance looked at in isolation. 

Well, if they did it to get under your skin, I guess they can take your post as a confirmation of success.

[BlackAngelCom]

3 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Agir / Siegfried still have better secondaries range than Napoli.

7.95km stock.

 

Napoli

7.3km stock, and she's a Tier X while the two German Super Cruisers are Tier IX.

OP, you seriously overestimate the usefulness of the Italian 90mm gun.  You can also bounce SAP.

 

That's not the point. Cruisers were given no useful secondary skills because there weren't, per WG, enough ships to justify it. Then they didn't comp the ones that could use them anyway at all.

[TheArc]

3 hours ago, Mr_Argamas said:

Even with the best accuracy, 90mm secondaries at T10 won't even pen a destroyer. They only add fire starting potential.

Not that any secondaries even with all the accuracy boosts can hit a moving DD anyway.

[HazeGrayUnderway]

1 hour ago, BlackAngelCom said:

That's not the point. Cruisers were given no useful secondary skills because there weren't, per WG, enough ships to justify it. Then they didn't comp the ones that could use them anyway at all.

That's the stupid Skill Rebork limiting skills.

If someone puts SBM1 on 254mm 3x3 armed Napoli, they need to be slapped across the face with a pizza pan.

[Ranari]

4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

Are you parsing the damage done by secondaries or the performance of secondary specced ships?  The first option isn't going to be seen as relevant by WG because secondaries aren't the ship.  It is going to be the ship's overall performance that matters.  Most people who post here about secondaries ignore everything other than the secondaries, but taking the secondaries out of context like that makes the whole conversation pointless.

I parse the secondaries against an array of actual targets in the armor resilience test. 

While I would agree with your statement, somewhat, secondaries have to good enough and enticing enough for players to desire to want to use them. Otherwise, all that supposed secondary prowess goes wasted in the overall balance of the ship. 

So parsing the actual performance of the secondaries is very useful imho. 

[Princess_Daystar]

10 minutes ago, Ranari said:

I parse the secondaries against an array of actual targets in the armor resilience test. 

While I would agree with your statement, somewhat, secondaries have to good enough and enticing enough for players to desire to want to use them. Otherwise, all that supposed secondary prowess goes wasted in the overall balance of the ship. 

So parsing the actual performance of the secondaries is very useful imho. 

Ngl i was impressed with the Wuijing recently, i wish my KMS ships performed to that level.

~2000 rounds fired from secondary batteries

~600 hits from secondaries

Just shy of 50k damage done by them, which was 1/3 of my damage.

[Drifter_X]

13 hours ago, BlackAngelCom said:

I recall the exact same thing being said about Siegfried in particular before cruisers lost all useful secondary battery skills with no compensation for that ship.

Not that secondary build was particularly good on that ship, but this basically a rip off.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/145

"

X NAPOLI: 

• Sigma parameter increased from 1.9 to 2.05 
• Secondary battery parameters were changed:
  • 152 mm guns' reload time reduced from 8 to 7.2 s; 
  • 90 mm guns' reload time reduced from 3.5 to 3.2 s;
  • Their accuracy has been improved: now the secondary battery of Napoli will be more accurate than that of any other ship in the game. 

In her concept, Napoli is an armored cruiser with decent concealment, powerful main battery guns, as well as an accurate secondary battery which has a long range for her class and is equipped with SAP shells. As the first test stages showed that her secondaries were not as powerful as was planned, we adjusted their parameters accordingly. These changes will stronger emphasize the concept of Napoli as a cruiser with an effective secondary battery"

 

 

I think in the future WG will change secondary attributes for the better. They have shown that they want secondaries more present in general with range increases but accuracy nerfs. Its a good start because now they are going off at other than suicide ranges without mods. Secondaries play their part but should never be relied upon to make a difference.

[Telastyn]

2 hours ago, Princess_Daystar said:

Ngl i was impressed with the Wuijing recently, i wish my KMS ships performed to that level.

~2000 rounds fired from secondary batteries

~600 hits from secondaries

Just shy of 50k damage done by them, which was 1/3 of my damage.

What were you targeting? I don’t think my Alsace has cleared 10k since the rework.

[Princess_Daystar]

14 hours ago, Telastyn said:

What were you targeting? I don’t think my Alsace has cleared 10k since the rework.

Oh...2DDs, 2 cruisers, 2 other Wuijins, a Minnesota...game was intense, all in the B cap of "Trap". 8 point captain too as i said, so no manual secondaries(or whatever its called), and i was running only two skills regardless.

 

14 hours ago, Drifter_X said:

I think in the future WG will change secondary attributes for the better. They have shown that they want secondaries more present in general with range increases but accuracy nerfs. Its a good start because now they are going off at other than suicide ranges without mods. Secondaries play their part but should never be relied upon to make a difference.

Ships focused around them should have secondaries that make a difference. KMS battleships, any secondary cruiser like Agir/Siegfried, the French BBs and the few American BBs that are built around it. But, all secondaries IMO should be able to at least penetrate DDs of the same tier, they should not all be buzzsaws that kill DDs instantly. Hopefully they continue to buff up secondaries of ships that depend on them for a chunk of their damage.

[MnemonScarlet]

9 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

But, all secondaries IMO should be able to at least penetrate DDs of the same tier, they should not all be buzzsaws that kill DDs instantly.

Yeah, I don't understand the rationale on WG making the 90mms useless against even the lightest armored ships. I guess the French 100mms fall in there too.

[Princess_Daystar]

5 minutes ago, MnemonScarlet said:

Yeah, I don't understand the rationale on WG making the 90mms useless against even the lightest armored ships. I guess the French 100mms fall in there too.

it wouldnt be so bad if secondaries could aim at different areas of the ship. cut a ship into 3 sections(Waterline, midside armor, and the Superstructure), and let the secondaries pick the place they can pen to shoot at. if they can only pen superstructure like most of the 90mms on the Italian BBs, or the 100mms of the French then thats where they aim. Less hits maybe but theyd be more useful.

[jags_domain]

On 4/28/2021 at 7:51 AM, BlackAngelCom said:

I recall the exact same thing being said about Siegfried in particular before cruisers lost all useful secondary battery skills with no compensation for that ship.

Not that secondary build was particularly good on that ship, but this basically a rip off.

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/145

"

X NAPOLI: 

• Sigma parameter increased from 1.9 to 2.05 
• Secondary battery parameters were changed:
  • 152 mm guns' reload time reduced from 8 to 7.2 s; 
  • 90 mm guns' reload time reduced from 3.5 to 3.2 s;
  • Their accuracy has been improved: now the secondary battery of Napoli will be more accurate than that of any other ship in the game. 

In her concept, Napoli is an armored cruiser with decent concealment, powerful main battery guns, as well as an accurate secondary battery which has a long range for her class and is equipped with SAP shells. As the first test stages showed that her secondaries were not as powerful as was planned, we adjusted their parameters accordingly. These changes will stronger emphasize the concept of Napoli as a cruiser with an effective secondary battery"

 

 

I really love this idea.   My sec go off often but they never hit anything.

A cruiser designed for it would be great.

The challenge is the sec have to made great because there are 0 captain skill to help it.