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AdmiralQ

WG, What the hell

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I just saw Flambasses vid and she showed his yammy firing on a CV. hit's the flight deck dead on....and richochet. these are 18.1 inch shells hitting a flat flight deck. How is that remotely possible?

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The same guy who designed MM also designed the ricochet.

tenor.gif

Edited by Girlz_Day
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16 minutes ago, AdmiralQ said:

these are 18.1 inch shells hitting a flat flight deck. How is that remotely possible?

You ever fired a rifle bullet at a flat rock?

 

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A Enterprise bounced nearly all my Georgia's AP shells last week at 16k. Plunging shells, didn't think US carriers had armoured decks?

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Midway (the CV in question) has an 87mm deck armor.

Yamato cannot overmatch this, so normal bounce rules apply.

Shells aren't falling straight down, they hit the deck at about a 30 degree angle or so (guessing).  

Its no surprise they bounce.   Midway will bounce just about everything, I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

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5 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

A Enterprise bounced nearly all my Georgia's AP shells last week at 16k. Plunging shells, didn't think US carriers had armoured decks?

This seems...odd, Enterprise has only 25mm deck, Georgia should overmatch that no problem.   You likely hit the hanger plating which is 38mm

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35 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

You ever fired a rifle bullet at a flat rock?

 

Was the thickness of flat rock an eighteenth of the diameter of the rifle bullet?  

 

Edited by Farm_Fresh_Eggs
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2 minutes ago, Zenn3k said:

Midway (the CV in question) has an 87mm deck armor.

Yamato cannot overmatch this, so normal bounce rules apply.

Shells aren't falling straight down, they hit the deck at about a 30 degree angle or so (guessing).  

Its no surprise they bounce.   Midway will bounce just about everything, I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

Ah,..................3,200 pound projectile at 2,600 FPS hitting a flight deck at about, 30 degrees within the 12-15 KM range would tear that flight deck into a twisted mass of metal....period.  The energy released would blow most of the Carriers electrical systems out (EMP) and kill any human within 100 yards if they were even partially exposed.....  

Yes, it's a game.   The same game were that same 45 Type 94 hits a DD three time < 10K and does really nothing !>!>?  Holy crap, talk about wonky physics.....

image.png.be5a0da44a2dc9d3e70b90f3514cbc51.png

^^^^^ this is a 500 pound missile hitting a target frigate.....now imagine something 6 times of an explosion larger....... 

35 minutes ago, Girlz_Day said:

The same guy who designed MM also designed the ricochet.

Yep.  Because it's a very silly arcade shooter......  But imagine is we using somewhat more realistic physics:.......what the Yammy would do to DD and CA/CL's.....  Oooooooooh......

25 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

You ever fired a rifle bullet at a flat rock?

Not Intentionally !  Although, I have seen HE indexed into the FCC when a AP round was actually fired a bunch of times........  and the opposite........  That can be exciting.....

30 degrees is about 39,180 yards for the 45 Type 94 HE round...... That's about 22 miles.  And, since water absorbs energy and distributes mass (water does not compress) under impact symmetrically, that 3,200 pound shell would detonate and not skip.....  It would look like a golf ball impacting sand in a sand trap....   An AP round most likely would shatter or embed itself....  Again, this is just a game and sometimes, I wish the game would have a "little bit of realism" to make the Battlespace more dangerous to lighter craft.   The invincible DD simply is too hard to accept some days.....

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1 hour ago, AdmiralQ said:

I just saw Flambasses vid and she showed his yammy firing on a CV. hit's the flight deck dead on....and richochet. these are 18.1 inch shells hitting a flat flight deck. How is that remotely possible?

 

1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

You ever fired a rifle bullet at a flat rock?

 

Or skipped rocks.

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59 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

Was the thickness of flat rock an eighteenth of the diameter of the rifle bullet?  

 

87 mm isn't an eighteenth of 460 mm, it's more like 3/16th. In a ricochet test, a 1/16th inch aluminum plate ricocheted a  0.357 inch diameter bullet at 40 degrees. That's 0.175 x the bullet's diameter or a little less than 3/16th.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5613&amp;context=jclc

Edited by Snargfargle

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4 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

 

Or skipped rocks.

There was a case once where a woman was driving down a coastal highway with her window rolled down and was killed by a .303 rifle round fired from a boat at some floating debris. The boat was some distance out to sea but the bullet skipped off the water and traveled a mile or so.

Edited by Snargfargle
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1 hour ago, Zenn3k said:

Midway (the CV in question) has an 87mm deck armor.

Yamato cannot overmatch this, so normal bounce rules apply.

Shells aren't falling straight down, they hit the deck at about a 30 degree angle or so (guessing).  

Its no surprise they bounce.   Midway will bounce just about everything, I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

 

1 hour ago, Asym_KS said:

Ah,..................3,200 pound projectile at 2,600 FPS hitting a flight deck at about, 30 degrees within the 12-15 KM range would tear that flight deck into a twisted mass of metal....period.  The energy released would blow most of the Carriers electrical systems out (EMP) and kill any human within 100 yards if they were even partially exposed.....  

Yes, it's a game.   The same game were that same 45 Type 94 hits a DD three time < 10K and does really nothing !>!>?  Holy crap, talk about wonky physics.....

image.png.be5a0da44a2dc9d3e70b90f3514cbc51.png

^^^^^ this is a 500 pound missile hitting a target frigate.....now imagine something 6 times of an explosion larger....... 

Yep.  Because it's a very silly arcade shooter......  But imagine is we using somewhat more realistic physics:.......what the Yammy would do to DD and CA/CL's.....  Oooooooooh......

Not Intentionally !  Although, I have seen HE indexed into the FCC when a AP round was actually fired a bunch of times........  and the opposite........  That can be exciting.....

30 degrees is about 39,180 yards for the 45 Type 94 HE round...... That's about 22 miles.  And, since water absorbs energy and distributes mass (water does not compress) under impact symmetrically, that 3,200 pound shell would detonate and not skip.....  It would look like a golf ball impacting sand in a sand trap....   An AP round most likely would shatter or embed itself....  Again, this is just a game and sometimes, I wish the game would have a "little bit of realism" to make the Battlespace more dangerous to lighter craft.   The invincible DD simply is too hard to accept some days.....

More like a 15 degree angle of fall.

And yes, in reality that might well go right through, but WoWS has very fixed rules for bouncing and if you don't overmatch the armor (shell diameter is more than 14.3x the armor thickness) and the angle of impact is less than 65 degrees, it will bounce for all ships that don't have improved ricochet angles, and Yamato does not.

Edited by Helstrem

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2 hours ago, LunchCutter said:

A Enterprise bounced nearly all my Georgia's AP shells last week at 16k. Plunging shells, didn't think US carriers had armoured decks?

Auto-ricochet of the shells? USS enterprise being a Yorktown class did not have an armored flight deck. Only CVs like Midway and postwar/later war CVs had armored flights deacons like Midway

Edited by Boomer625

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1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

87 mm isn't an eighteenth of 460 mm, it's more like 3/16th. In a ricochet test, a 1/16th inch aluminum plate ricocheted a  0.357 inch diameter bullet at 40 degrees. That's 0.175 x the bullet's diameter or a little less than 3/16th.

https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5613&amp;context=jclc

38 cal 180gr @ 600fps isnt quite a caparison. 

 

Ship, especially CV, armor is so speshul in WoW.  If I have a tank with a three inch glacis sloped at 30 degrees and it bounced 18" AP eounds, I think we'd have lots of raised eyebrows.    

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2 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

Midway (the CV in question) has an 87mm deck armor.

Yamato cannot overmatch this, so normal bounce rules apply.

Shells aren't falling straight down, they hit the deck at about a 30 degree angle or so (guessing).  

Its no surprise they bounce.   Midway will bounce just about everything, I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

Pretty much this.

Most BB shells won't lose too much speed in the air. This means that unless it hits at a 30 degree angle or greater, the shells can't penetrate because of the overmatch mechanic.

Some battleships may be able to penetrate it at the very edge of their ranges due to the shells impacting from a steeper angle (american BBs for example) but the best place to aim is under the funnels in the midsection. If they run, I'd tell you to load HE to burn them, but they have 5 sec fire duration because that's completely balanced.

2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

Yes, it's a game.   The same game were that same 45 Type 94 hits a DD three time < 10K and does really nothing !>!>?  Holy crap, talk about wonky physics.....

Around 10k damage is nothing to scoff at on a DD. Shimakaze has 17,900 health without SE so that's more that half it's health gone. Yamato's AP (I assume you were firing that) does 1,480 damage per hit on a destroyer. This means you landed around 6 or 7 shells on that destroyer and chunked it for more than half it's health.

Conversely, if you shot HE at it, each shell would now do around 2500 damage (iirc). That means you'd all but annihilate that destroyer with your salvo, not to mention break a lot of stuff and start fires on it. I understand that it's difficult to predict when to switch ammo, but if you're ever stuck in that 1v1 with a DD, you know what to shoot.

2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

image.png.be5a0da44a2dc9d3e70b90f3514cbc51.png

^^^^^ this is a 500 pound missile hitting a target frigate.....now imagine something 6 times of an explosion larger.......

The comparison of a guided anti ship missile to a WW2 era timed fuse shell is stupid. That's because said shell would overmatch because said fuse doesn't arm on that thin of armour, whereas said missile is not only guided to it's target's weak points, but it also has contact fuses that detonate almost as soon as they hit the frigate.

Overpenetration was a very real mechanic and consideration for warship designers at the time. That's why destroyers and certain light cruisers can survive devastating broadside salvos at close range. Although I feel like overpens can be fairly abused by some cruisers (smolensk), it's perfectly fine for destroyers.

2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

Yep.  Because it's a very silly arcade shooter......  But imagine is we using somewhat more realistic physics:.......what the Yammy would do to DD and CA/CL's.....  Oooooooooh......

If we were using realistic physic, then Yamato wouldn't be able to bowtank any battleship (and even some supercruisers) at all. Any relatively large shell would go through that bow like a hot knife through butter. If that happened, people would complain that yamato isn't unique or good anymore so that's why we have this fictitious mechanic around.

If we went full realist, then most of your battleship shells would miss the target by hundreds of meters. Destroyers would also be much harder to hit at range and you'd have to sit in the back and snipe from 30km or so to stay relatively safe. Carriers would also completely dominate you even more than they already did. You can't pick and choose you're historical accuracy argument here.

2 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

The invincible DD simply is too hard to accept some days.....

Play a high tier destroyer, get within 10 kilometers of a radar cruiser, and smoke up. Come back to me then and tell me how invincible DDs are. I'll wait.

Edited by mcgibe
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12 minutes ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

38 cal 180gr @ 600fps isnt quite a caparison.

It is if you look at things relativity and take into consideration the material that did the ricocheting was was aluminum and not hardened steel armor plate.

 

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4 hours ago, AdmiralQ said:

I just saw Flambasses vid and she showed his yammy firing on a CV. hit's the flight deck dead on....and richochet. these are 18.1 inch shells hitting a flat flight deck. How is that remotely possible?

It isn't. But then again WoWS is a place where the  mystical, the mythical, and the magical, try to blend RL navies.

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14 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

It is if you look at things relativity and take into consideration the material that did the ricocheting was was aluminum and not hardened steel armor plate.

 

But you cant overlook the composition of the projectile.  The 38 round was a 'MJ' - probably copper plated - but let's give it a swaged jacket.  That jacket is going to be paper thin with a core of soft lead.  It's hardly anything meant to deal with armor and penetration.   

It would be a fun project to attempt to replicate with should-fired rifle calibers, but unless you have the ballistic resources of Hornady, it's going to be impossible to acquire a hardened penetrator with soft ballistic cap to test the hypothesis. 

Dont take me wrong here, I'm not arguing that bouncing is not possible.  However, given the example, It's one of those 'l have to see the video to believe it' things.    Lots of analogies to skipping rocks and the like, but I've seen footage of ships firing practice rounds from the big guns -- close range; so minimum elevation -- and when they hit it's one huge splash -- not a 16" shell skipping across the water.  

 

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3 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

UK and German BBs

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3 hours ago, Zenn3k said:

Midway (the CV in question) has an 87mm deck armor.

Yamato cannot overmatch this, so normal bounce rules apply.

Shells aren't falling straight down, they hit the deck at about a 30 degree angle or so (guessing).  

Its no surprise they bounce.   Midway will bounce just about everything, I don't actually know if any BB HE has higher than 87mm of pen to damage it that way.

Hmmmmm Shikishima has 85mm

IFHE TIME

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2 hours ago, xHeavy said:

If AP does not stick, burn it with HE.

Thats how you play Wows.

But you can't.I mean Cv's.

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