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DevilD0g

japanese navy captains.

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The japanese fleet is next to the us fleet the oldest and original fleet of world of warships and yet we are still waiting to see specialized captains for the japanese fleet. ???

How about it wargamming.

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2 hours ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

OP, you should have asked WeeGee about a T6 Japanese premium cruiser.

Or ask to tune the one that's at tier 5. :cap_horn:

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It -is- interesting how they are making the Special Skills unusable together, unlike commanders of the past.  

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38 minutes ago, Jakob_Knight said:

It -is- interesting how they are making the Special Skills unusable together, unlike commanders of the past.  

I think this is more a function of the new structure of the new commander skill system, combined with the fact that there is a recent in trend in legendary/unique commanders to make them more useable across a wider variety of ships (look at Lutjen’s talents, for example - they’re all over the board). These are the first such commanders released since the rework, and there’s only so much that can be done with two boosted skills, one of which is very strong (SE) (and thus I doubt WG would give them three, a la British and Soviet unique COs). That being said, I wish the BB skill for these commanders was something more valuable, as Emergency Repair Specialist is pretty terrible.

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12 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/game-updates/update-0103-german-destroyers-part-1/#armory

“Two new Japanese Commanders Raizō Suzuki in exchange for 1,500 Doubloons and Takeo Suzuki in exchange for 35,000 Coal will become available from April 29. The Commanders have the following enhanced skills:

for cruisers, destroyers, and aircraft carriers: Survivability Expert

for battleships: Emergency Repair Specialist”

Which are a joke compared to the Russian 35k coal captain, or even the French or American one.

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23 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

Which are a joke compared to the Russian 35k coal captain, or even the French or American one.

Stephen Seagal/John Doe was the first commander with special skills, IIRC, and the combination of improved GtG and GF has always been very powerful for BBs and CAs. The French combo of GtG and AR is similarly powerful (arguably more so), but note the contrast with the more recently introduced French legendary commander - WG obviously realized this was a bad idea. The Soviet captains are also quite old and were significantly nerfed with the rework. They have 3 1-2 pt skills that don’t synergize well at all. BBs have GtG (good) and ERS (garbage). Cruisers have GtG (good). DDs have PM (good) and GtG (questionable, since Soviet tech tree DDs got turret traverse buffs quite a while back). They are hardly game-breaking or super strong in any way.

Even ignoring the fact that these captains have been in the game for quite some time and were introduced under the old system, the new Japanese commanders have buffed SE, which is a very powerful, practically mandatory skill for DDs and CVs. The skill is also about to get a buff for cruisers, which will probably increase its use on high tier CAs. These captains are going to be terrible for BBs, but for every other class they will be great, especially considering you can have each trained for a DD, CV, and cruiser separately.

I would rank them right up there with the American captains.

Edited by Nevermore135
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21 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Stephen Seagal/John Doe was the first commander with special skills, IIRC, and the combination of improved GtG and GF has always been very powerful for BBs and CAs. The Soviet captains aren’t much younger, and they were nerfed with the rework. They have 3 1-2 pt skills that don’t synergize well at all. BBs have GtG (good) and ERS (garbage). Cruisers have GtG (good). DDs have PM (good) and GtG (questionable, since Soviet tech tree DDs got turret traverse buffs quite a while back). They are hardly game-breaking or super strong in any way.

Even ignoring the fact that these captains have been in the game for quite some time and were introduced under the old system, the new Japanese commanders have buffed SE, which is a very powerful, practically mandatory skill for DDs and CVs. The skill is also about to get a buff for cruisers, which will probably increase its use on high tier CAs. These captains are going to be terrible for BBs, but for every other class they will be great, especially considering you can have each trained for a DD, CV, and cruiser separately.

I would rank them right up there with the American captains.

The French one gets GtG and AR.  The US one gets EL and GtG.  The Russian one gets PM, GtG and ERS.  The British one gets GtG, CS and CE.  Notice a trend here?

The Japanese captains are getting just ERS for BBs (garbage), SE for cruisers (garbage) and DDs (good). 

Sorry, but you can't spin that to be anything other than the Japanese ones getting shafted and being significantly weaker than the others.  They are for DDs and DDs only.

SE is nothing special as the US and Russia have had SE boosted captains handed out like candy.  Japan, one of the two oldest trees in the game, is finally getting an enhanced captain and it provides fewer boosts than the old ones, being no better than a freaking hockey player.

Edited by Helstrem
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12 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The French one gets GtG and AR.

 

33 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

The French combo of GtG and AR is similarly powerful (arguably more so), but note the contrast with the more recently introduced French legendary commander - WG obviously realized this was a bad idea

I edited my post prior to your response
 

12 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The British one gets GtG, CS and CE.  Notice a trend here?

And you conveniently left out that CS is garbage for UK ships. It’s uses are to buff DFAA on CAs (how many people run that?) and catapult aircraft.

12 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

The Japanese captains are getting just ERS for BBs (garbage), SE for cruisers (garbage) and DDs (good

Read what I wrote again about SE, and check the dev blog.  You are also ignoring aircraft carriers. The fact is that these captains are well suited for IJN ships. 

 

Edited by Nevermore135

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Just now, Nevermore135 said:

 

I edited my post prior to your response
 

And you conveniently left out that CS is garbage for UK ships. It’s uses are to buff DFAA on CAs (how many people run that?) and catapult aircraft.

Read what I wrote again, and you are ignoring aircraft carriers. The fact is that these captains are well suited for IJN ships. 

 

Sorry, nothing you write is going to change the fact that the Japanese went longer than any other nation without an enhanced captain and when it finally arrives unlike all other enhanced captains it lacks GtG, something Japanese BBs desperately need, and boosts fewer skills, being outshone by a hockey player for effs sake.

It is funny how you justify this by claiming the older ones were over tuned and it is natural for the Japanese ones to be weaker, when the exact opposite is the case for the legendary captains.  The Japanese got theirs first and the conditions to activate the useful bonuses are punitively difficult to achieve compared to those that came after.

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4 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

It is funny how you justify this by claiming the older ones were over tuned and it is natural for the Japanese ones to be weaker, when the exact opposite is the case for the legendary captains.  The Japanese got theirs first and the conditions to activate the useful bonuses are punitively difficult to achieve compared to those that came after.

I did no such thing. I am advocating comparing apples to apples, not doubling down on past potentially bad decisions, etc. You are also ignoring why a certain skill is so effective for the nation in question, as well as intentionally ignoring what doesn’t fit your view, so I have no desire to continue arguing against such an entrenched mindset. :Smile_honoring:

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13 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

https://worldofwarships.com/en/news/game-updates/update-0103-german-destroyers-part-1/#armory

“Two new Japanese Commanders Raizō Suzuki in exchange for 1,500 Doubloons and Takeo Suzuki in exchange for 35,000 Coal will become available from April 29. The Commanders have the following enhanced skills:

for cruisers, destroyers, and aircraft carriers: Survivability Expert

for battleships: Emergency Repair Specialist”

Its like you can read the future.  or just read.

Edited by Rothgar_57

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8 minutes ago, Rothgar_57 said:

Its like you can read the future.  or just read.

It’s my superpower. :Smile_glasses:

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1 hour ago, Nevermore135 said:

I did no such thing. I am advocating comparing apples to apples, not doubling down on past potentially bad decisions, etc. You are also ignoring why a certain skill is so effective for the nation in question, as well as intentionally ignoring what doesn’t fit your view, so I have no desire to continue arguing against such an entrenched mindset. :Smile_honoring:

Yeah, it just so happens that those "past bad decisions" all work out to disadvantage one particular nation.  No biggie though, I mean they can just do that instead of fixing the bad past decisions.

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2 hours ago, Helstrem said:

fixing the bad past decisions.

This is by far the best decision. But, baring that, the next best thing is to not make things worse, which is the approach WG takes. The German, British, and Soviet unique commanders got nerfed with the skill rework. I guarantee the French and American commanders would have as well if WG had found a way.

Edited by Nevermore135

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9 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

This is by far the best decision. But, baring that, the next best thing is to not make things worse.

I do disagree with this, making them all even would be far better, and its easier to introduce new things that follow the old pattern than remove the old pattern.

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27 minutes ago, Princess_Daystar said:

I do disagree with this, making them all even would be far better, and its easier to introduce new things that follow the old pattern than remove the old pattern.

The issue isn’t how they relate to each other, but rather how they relate to the baseline (i.e. vanilla commanders, which the vast majority of players will use). The best way to fix such any issue like this, like any such situation with overtuned content, is to adjust said overtuned content, not introduce more overtuned content. All the latter does is perpetuate and exacerbate the problem.

Edited by Nevermore135

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Some historical IJN officers I'd like to see as special captains with abilities.

 

VAdm Nagumo Chuichi

ChuichiNagumoPDJapan.jpg

Has seen a number of the IJN's major engagements in the Pacific War.  Commander of the vaunted Kido Butai's early successes, but also through Midway.  Took what remained of the Kido Butai and fought more Carrier duels in the South Pacific for hotly contested Guadalcanal.  He has had his very highs and lows, but in commanding major IJN formations, you cannot ignore the historically significant Nagumo.

Nagumo would be on Saipan and would die there with the US invasion in 1944.

 

VAdm Mikawa Gunichi

220px-Gunichi_Mikawa.jpg

Two words:  Savo Island, his best performance.  The Allied navies had never squared off against another naval force in WWII and got shellacked like they did at Savo Island.  The Allies had 6 Heavy Cruisers and 4 of them were sunk.  I know Cruisers may seem insignificant in WoWS but in WWII they were a big deal.  Losing that many CAs in one engagement had a profound effect.  Unfortunately for Mikawa he had to pull his ships back before hitting the transports and Henderson Field.  Daylight was coming and the threat of air attacks would come with it.  That pullback drew him a lot of criticism from his superiors and would eventually get him relieved.  The IJN would call him back years later to lead the decoy force for Leyte Gulf with the intent on drawing away Halsey and his powerful naval force.  The IJN had been gutted of its naval air power from the earlier Battle of the Philippine Sea (Marianas Turkey Shoot), and Mikawa was given Carriers with little to no planes.  It was an inglorious duty and an even worse way to end Carrier Zuikaku's wartime service.  Even worse, the sacrifice of his diversionary force was pointless.

Mikawa would survive WWII and live a really low profile life until passing in 1981.

 

VAdm Tanaka Raizo

RaizoTanaka.jpg

When he was a RAdm and at the high point of his combat service, his field of expertise were with Destroyers and Cruisers.  Eventually he'd lose his Cruisers and be forced to do the Tokyo Express runs, or as the IJN actually called them, Rat Runs, because their resupply attempts were done only in night like rats.  Extensive combat experience but the highlight of his performance was actually a defeat.  At the Battle of Tassafaronga, his 8 DD force, mostly loaded with cargo and troops for Guadalcanal, with only 1 being loaded normal to act as the vanguard, was ambushed by a vastly superior USN force.  The Americans had a whopping 4 CAs, 1 CL, 4 DD advantage, and waited in ambush.  Destroyer Takanami spotted the Americans and promptly engaged.  The USN force weren't very smart and focused everything they had on that 1 DD and would sink it.  Tanaka and the rest of his force launched Long Lances for devastating effect against the Americans, sinking 1 CA and crippling 3 more.  Tanaka was unsure with the remaining strength of the Americans and elected to save the remaining ships loaded with troops and supplies.  Keep in mind that these DDs loaded as transports were not fully armed like they normally would be.  He got into big trouble for this because he did not deliver the troops and supplies.

 

Tanaka would go on to question the attrition Japan was fighting at Guadalcanal.  The big mistake he did was suggest the evacuation of Japanese forces from Gaudalcanal because it was becoming an endless pit of men, ships, planes, resources.  This got him relieved of command, but leadership eventually agreed and evacuated Guadalcanal and redo their South Pacific strategy.  Tanaka when relieved was one of the most combat experienced officers of the IJN, and he got sh*tcanned to shore duty in BURMA for the rest of the war.

Because of that Burma desk job and no longer having any seagoing command, he'd survive WWII.  Captain Hara Tameichi kept in touch with Tanaka after the war, who became a farmer in post-war Japan.  He'd pass away in 1969.

American assessment of Tanaka was simply full of praise, especially for Tassafaronga.  From the book, "Japanese Destroyer Captain":

 

Tears came to his eyes when he spoke of destroyer Takanami. “We were able to defeat Admiral Wright’s ships in this action only because of Takanami. She absorbed all the punishment of the enemy in the opening moments of battle, and she shielded the rest of us. Yet we left the scene without doing anything for her or her valiant crew.”

However Admiral Tanaka may have felt about the Japanese effort at Tassafaronga, it is fair to consider what the U.S. Naval Historian, Rear Admiral Samuel Eliot Morison, had to say about this battle: “It is always some consolation to reflect that the enemy who defeats you is really good, and Rear Admiral Tanaka was better than that—he was superb. Without his trusted flagship Jintsu, his decks cluttered with supplies, he sank a heavy cruiser and put three others out of action for nearly a year, at the cost of one destroyer. In many actions of the war, mistakes on the American side were canceled by those of the enemy; but despite the brief confusion of his destroyers, Tanaka made no mistakes at Tassafaronga.”

 

Capt Hara Tameichi

220px-Tameichi_Hara.jpg

A Destroyer captain that saw very extensive combat action in WWII.  He was the captain of DD Amatsukaze, became a Division commander aboard DD Shigure.  His final combat command was CL Yahagi for Operation Ten-Go.  The bulk of his combat experience was in the many naval engagements for Guadalcanal and the Solomon Islands where the IJN and Allied navies were basically spearfishing each other.  The life of an IJN Destroyer was a perilous one.  How so?  Hara was the only pre-war IJN DD captain to survive WWII.  He'd also write, "Japanese Destroyer Captain."  He would pass away in 1980.

9781591143840_p0_v1_s1200x630.jpg&f=1&no

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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4 hours ago, Helstrem said:

The French one gets GtG and AR.  The US one gets EL and GtG.  The Russian one gets PM, GtG and ERS.  The British one gets GtG, CS and CE.  Notice a trend here?

The Japanese captains are getting just ERS for BBs (garbage), SE for cruisers (garbage) and DDs (good). 

Sorry, but you can't spin that to be anything other than the Japanese ones getting shafted and being significantly weaker than the others.  They are for DDs and DDs only.

SE is nothing special as the US and Russia have had SE boosted captains handed out like candy.  Japan, one of the two oldest trees in the game, is finally getting an enhanced captain and it provides fewer boosts than the old ones, being no better than a freaking hockey player.

It would seem that WG has issues with the IJN. Their additions to the game lately have been tepid at best. Yuuduchi, Yahagi, Harekaze II and now a rather weak special captain. I have not looked at the new captain yet. But with the new skills rework, I do not need as many captains so adding another is not exactly compelling.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

 

 

9781591143840_p0_v1_s1200x630.jpg&f=1&no

 

I good book indeed!

Japan ensured their defeat by not learning and caning the officers who did. (the Navy and Army considering each other bigger enemies than the allies did not help either)

I would like to see the a 1944 (one less 127 but many more 25mm guns) Sugure as a premium T 6 or 7 and a special captain Hara in the package. (I don't know if there are some copyright or other issues as why WG does not use Hara or Tanaka in the game dosen't seem to ge an issue with the captains already in the game) And since in the release of the Harekaze II WG put a note saying they retain the right to balance the ship after sale there is no reason the release a crap premium ship to start with as they have done with other ships.

I wonder if WG could have a special skill that is not related to the commander skills tree? For instance having Hara detecting ships .5 km further away than normal in game ratings.

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1 hour ago, GrayPanther2018 said:

I good book indeed!

Japan ensured their defeat by not learning and caning the officers who did. (the Navy and Army considering each other bigger enemies than the allies did not help either)

I would like to see the a 1944 (one less 127 but many more 25mm guns) Sugure as a premium T 6 or 7 and a special captain Hara in the package. (I don't know if there are some copyright or other issues as why WG does not use Hara or Tanaka in the game dosen't seem to ge an issue with the captains already in the game) And since in the release of the Harekaze II WG put a note saying they retain the right to balance the ship after sale there is no reason the release a crap premium ship to start with as they have done with other ships.

I wonder if WG could have a special skill that is not related to the commander skills tree? For instance having Hara detecting ships .5 km further away than normal in game ratings.

Fantastic book and the POV presented is unique:  Hara was the only pre-war IJN DD commanding officer that survived the war, and he had been through a lot of battles, especially the long meatgrinder for Guadalcanal and the Solomons.  Everyone of his peers that started with him in experience were dead.

 

His talk about Yamamoto was interesting.  Before he became Commander in Chief of Combined Fleet, the two real candidates for the job were Admirals Yonai and Yamamoto.  Yonai was so respected in the navy that Yamamoto wanted to defer assuming that position to him.

220px-Mitsumasa_yonai.jpg220px-Isoroku_Yamamoto.jpg

From "Japanese Destroyer Captain," Hara said this:

 

The great Han Dynasty of China was founded by General Liu Pang in 202 B.C. after he had emerged victorious from a series of many battles in a great civil war. One day, after gaining the throne, Generalissimo Liu was chatting with his chief of staff, General Han Tsin:

Liu: “How do you rate me as a general?”

Han: “I think Your Majesty can command, at most, an army of a few divisions.”

Liu: “And what is your own ability?”

Han: “The more armies of as many possible divisions I command the better I work.”

Liu: “How does it happen that I am an emperor while you remain a general?”

Han: “You are a born leader of leaders.”

Liu was one of the greatest emperors and Han one of the greatest generals in history. Few admirals have enjoyed such high reputation as did Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto in World War II. He had great ability, but I feel that his reputation as a naval leader was greater than he deserved. I do not mean to compare Yamamoto categorically with Liu, but in respect of their actual abilities, they are comparable.

Despite Japan’s miserable defeat in the Pacific War, the nation is still inclined to regard Yamamoto as a hero. Postwar writings have criticized other military and naval leaders, but not Yamamoto. If my remarks on Yamamoto seem severe it is not that I have any personal feelings against him; this is just the first writing by a Japanese military man to be at all critical of him.

To me Admiral Yamamoto was a born leader of leaders and for that he deserved the almost religious respect accorded him. But he was not qualified to command a million tons of ships and their crews. It was tragic that he was chosen to head the Combined Fleet.

Many of my colleagues believe that Yamamoto would have been an ideal Navy Minister, and there was a movement under way among certain Naval officers to have him named to this post. Their idea was that Admiral Mitsumasa Yonai should command the Combined Fleet. That move collapsed when Yonai, who strongly opposed war, refused, saying, “I am not a fighting admiral, and would only make things worse with the Army. Furthermore, if such a stiff-necked man as Yamamoto becomes Navy Minister he will surely be assassinated by Army hotheads.”

The real trouble was the Army. When the war began the cabinet was headed by General Hideki Tojo. Admiral Shigetaro Shimada, the Navy Minister, was known to be a Tojo stooge. The Navy chief of staff, Admiral Osami Nagano, was not strong enough to oppose Army plans. In criticizing Yamamoto, his actions and inaction, consideration must be given to all these factors which served to hamstring him.

Throughout his career Yamamoto was known to be a superb gambler. He was skilled in all games of chance, especially poker. His decision to attack Pearl Harbor was a gamble which paid tremendous odds. It is strange, therefore, that Yamamoto never again played his cards for all they were worth, as a gambler should. The lessons of the Coral Sea battle were not applied to Midway, where Yamamoto split his forces —to his detriment—between his prime objective and the Aleutians. Yamamoto was undoubtedly preoccupied with preserving his forces.

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38 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The lessons of the Coral Sea battle were not applied to Midway, where Yamamoto split his forces —to his detriment—between his prime objective and the Aleutians. 

I wonder if it would have made any difference if the IJN BBs had been in the same fleet as the CVs at Midway?  IJN AA was bad, but the early war CV aircraft on both sides were significantly more vulnerable to it.  Would adding the BB's AA, and that of their escorts, have made a difference?  Would the BBs have drawn off any of the American attacks, wasting themselves against far more resilient, but high value looking, ships?

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17 hours ago, Helstrem said:

I wonder if it would have made any difference if the IJN BBs had been in the same fleet as the CVs at Midway?  IJN AA was bad, but the early war CV aircraft on both sides were significantly more vulnerable to it.  Would adding the BB's AA, and that of their escorts, have made a difference?  Would the BBs have drawn off any of the American attacks, wasting themselves against far more resilient, but high value looking, ships?

Considering how bad their AA was, it wouldn't have mattered, especially since the CVs would have been targeted first.  There were BBs present with the Kido Butai at Midway, 2 of the Kongos were there, Haruna & Kirishima.  They were almost entirely ignored.  On the last attack by US aircraft against Hiryu, some Dauntless DBs from both Enterprise and Yorktown (Yorktown already was heavily damaged and out of action, they operated off of Enterprise) attacked.  Hiryu was picked out by Enterprise's aircraft while the Yorktown ones were assigned to attack BB Haruna.  Yorktown's aviators didn't like that, they wanted to nail Hiryu who got in hits on Yorktown.  However, when Enterprise's DBs missed, Yorktown's aviators broke off from Haruna and went immediately for Hiryu, landing the fatal strikes.

 

2 BBs there and not really touched, 4 CVs present and sunk.  That's a very convincing target prioritization.  More BBs wouldn't have mattered.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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