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sasquatch_research

New German DDs are pathetic at best

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Hey

I played my first game in the T7 Z31 (28365 damage, 4th on my team, top tier, loss) and also my first game in the T8 GJ Maerker (7950 damage, 6th place and top tier, loss) and what a bunch of Garbage.   The gun reload is terrible, the torps are utterly worthless for anything, and the AP is supposed to be great is actually garbage.  This is simply the worst DD's that I have played to date.  And while this was only 1 game in each boat; they are the most unenjoyable DD line that I have played and certainly not worth playing.  They need a very serious buff to be remotely effective at any kind of a DD role.  Clearly Wargaming doesn't play these boats in any meaningful way, or it's a really good example of its anti German bias, or it's a money grab to make you want to free XP to T10 and skip the garbage.

 

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33 minutes ago, sasquatch_research said:

Hey

I played my first game in the T7 Z31 (28365 damage, 4th on my team, top tier, loss) and also my first game in the T8 GJ Maerker (7950 damage, 6th place and top tier, loss) and what a bunch of Garbage.   The gun reload is terrible, the torps are utterly worthless for anything, and the AP is supposed to be great is actually garbage.  This is simply the worst DD's that I have played to date.  And while this was only 1 game in each boat; they are the most unenjoyable DD line that I have played and certainly not worth playing.  They need a very serious buff to be remotely effective at any kind of a DD role.  Clearly Wargaming doesn't play these boats in any meaningful way, or it's a really good example of its anti German bias, or it's a money grab to make you want to free XP to T10 and skip the garbage.

Pete

The only way I've found to play them 'successfully' is following Flamu's advice in taking all the range + reload upgrades + skills you can and hanging back to farm BB / CA superstructures while occasionally spitting out sea mines into the caps and other corridors and just hoping for the occasional hit. Basically play them like gimped RN CL's.

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1 hour ago, lloyd1701 said:

Basically play them like gimped RN CL's.

On the plus side they don't have citadels

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They have their role. Unfortunately that role is not consistent with any of the other roles destroyers have ever been asked to perform, so basically they're gimped cruisers that take up a DD slot and leave your team down a ship that can actually do DD things.

--Helms

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56 minutes ago, thehelmsman said:

They have their role. Unfortunately that role is not consistent with any of the other roles destroyers have ever been asked to perform, so basically they're gimped cruisers that take up a DD slot and leave your team down a ship that can actually do DD things.

--Helms

Hey

That's what it felt like.  A gimped trash boat with no purpose to try and be an asset to your team since you can't contest caps, even in the late game.   The torps are the most aggravating, limiting factor, even as zoning tools they are worthless and even if they do, not much damage to change a players mind.  If they had faster torps, or did serious damage, faster reload on the guns, hydro, or even making torp soup would help.  There is NOTHING these DD's bring to the table that can't be done in any other DD, and have more fun doing it.  Very much a selfish DD playstyle which this game Really doesn't need at this time.  I personally wont be wasting my time playing them.

 

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6 hours ago, lloyd1701 said:

The only way I've found to play them 'successfully' is following Flamu's advice in taking all the range + reload upgrades + skills you can and hanging back to farm BB / CA superstructures while occasionally spitting out sea mines into the caps and other corridors and just hoping for the occasional hit. Basically play them like gimped RN CL's.

Hey

Good luck if you only have a 10pt captain in them.  They could have been so much more useful, but I seriously doubt anyone from Wargaming has spent anytime playing them.

 

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We must not be playing the same DDs ...

Has the role changed?  Yes

Are they whatever everyone is brainwashed to think about a DD?  no ..  in fact, NO DD is set up for ..whatever the heck everyone expects a DD to do.

Do they fit in the current meta?  ...Ayep!

Current Meta 

1. Everyone spawns in.

2. BBs move up by one, maybe two squares the entire match to 'lolisnipe'

3. CLs CHARGE the nearest Island and hump the ever-living poop out of it to tag as many ships as they can with fire damage.

4. CVs (All but the GZ...) fly around and spot everything, and rocket the crap outa the enemy DDS, while the red CV is doing the same thing to you, and never drop fighters so you can actually try to do a job.

5. DDs ..Charge the ever-living crap out of the cap zones only to get radar'd, Hydro'd, Aircraft Spotted to run into the torp soup that is the cap zone. while the BBs, CLs, [edited] whine, and cry about "dds not spotting for them" and not contesting caps.

 

And the new line of KM DD?  Perfect for flanking the island humping CLs, dropping slow-moving hard-hitting fish at the BBs in the back, while citt'ing everyone that dares to show a broadside.  Are the new DD cap contesters?  Not really..  Are they DD hunters.. again, NOPE.  Do they bust up some unsuspecting CLs and BBs?  ...great crap on a cracker yes they do... 

 

NOw I am not your "hero that carries the battle" DD player.  I am your average KM Dd player that shakes his head at the insane OP'dness of all other DD lines.  ..  IF ONLY my Dd could stop on a dime, go reverse, then full speed in less than 5 seconds.  If only I had a heal..  If only my torps had a 15K range that hit like trucks if only my HE did more than 1700 damage if only my smoke last longer. if only my concealment was under 6.1km,  if only ....

 

The new KM line has changed that..  with some sacrifices, yes, but ...  with the main KM DD line, I averaged 27k per battle (yes I suck ..).  That's the thing..  I just would watch my torps burn out LONG before everyone else or hit for 7k (top damage from a Z52 on a T10 BB).  I would watch the gunboats BURN down BBs from a range that I only laughed at.    I would consider it a good battle if I lived..(and won), if I got more than 3 torps hits, or if my damage was about 30K.  The main KM line is just a joke..  watching He "break" but not explode, watch AP bounce off broadsides on anything over 8Km, ..and fires?  wth is a fire in a KM DD ..and a flood?  lmbo!!  I didn't know that floods existed in the KM torp line..  I honestly thought that the KM torp was not able to create a flood.  I've gone down the US DD line, the UK DD line, the IJN line, the Rus DD line, and the European DD line, and ...holy crap those lines were like "easy mode on crack"  Floods, fires, damage racked up ..fast torps, flooding torps, long-range torps, HEALING!!!  and AA guns ...they all make the KM line look like trash.  The ONLY thing about the KM DD line was that the line was made to be a cap bully... HYdro and wait till a CL (close enough) beats the crap out of the red DD, but do NOT show your ship, because one hit from the HE from any other DD line would burn you, disabled something, or plain outright delete half of your HP in 6 seconds...

 

Again. The new KM line changed that.  Now I average 50-60K per match, and more ships go down to my guns than ever before.  The torps hit hard enough to make the CLs turn ...  they turn and get insane AP rounds that are like frikkin lasers.  Getting 6-8 cits a match is pretty normal now, and you will watch those CLs tuck and turn as fast as they can once they see them melting to a 6-9K salvo hit every 6-7 seconds (WITHOUT A CIT), and they hit at a range that is outside of that radar or hydro, so they can just run...  NO more island humpers in my match.  get hit from 12 Km by the KM DD AP, you better run, and you have 1km to run before my torps come.  As far as DD's?  they can't do anything but turn and burn when the AP comes hailing down.  Yes it's all Over pens, but the damage is damage on a DD and when you are hitting them for 700-1300 damage as they are getting away, they are more concerned with getting away than shooting back ...  

 

TLDR:

They are great with the current meta.  Just learn their new functionality and do not let the CLs, BBs, and CVs bully you into "TAKE THE CAP!!!" You are a DD ...not a cap contester.  When last I looked, all ships can cap a capture point.  There is not some code that makes it so only a DD can cap.

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Have some actual experience playing the Z31 now and  have to agree that it sucks. By the WR somebody is making it work but  I feel it is a poor DD and a poor CL. If nothing else, it needs the tools every other German DD and CA/CL gets-HYDRO.

Is there any other DD that has ONE consumable?

The  maneuverability is lacking. The guns have a huge smoke firing penalty and I was getting overpens on a broadside Helena. HE is lackluster.

To top off all the bad, the torps load too slow and travel too slow.

Obviously some seem to like the Z31 (Crazynewt above for one) but I am not one of them. 

Maybe its decent showing in the rankings is because only those that can make it work now play it. Everyone else quickly abandons it.

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2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

Have some actual experience playing the Z31 now and  have to agree that it sucks. By the WR somebody is making it work but  I feel it is a poor DD and a poor CL. If nothing else, it needs the tools every other German DD and CA/CL gets-HYDRO.

Is there any other DD that has ONE consumable?

The  maneuverability is lacking. The guns have a huge smoke firing penalty and I was getting overpens on a broadside Helena. HE is lackluster.

To top off all the bad, the torps load too slow and travel too slow.

Obviously some seem to like the Z31 (Crazynewt above for one) but I am not one of them. 

Maybe its decent showing in the rankings is because only those that can make it work now play it. Everyone else quickly abandons it.

Not saying she's a world beater at all , but she has some attributes you can take advantage of....obviously the 25mm armor helps against dds , besides German and the gunboat ijn line....next she has excellent shell range and accuracy and decent shell velocity....next you have the German he pen.....ill be making a video in the next week but I'm winning fine in her...you attack the cap differently than the traditional dd ss all I'm gonna say for now.....all my German dds have below average damage/kills but are in the 60s......I agree I wish she had hydro but she is not the bottom dweller people are selling her as...like you said look at the wows stats...she isnt bad

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2 hours ago, Meta_Man said:

like you said look at the wows stats...she isnt bad

Still think some  "trash" ships end up with  much better than expected WR because the only people actually playing them are the ones that can really make them work and enjoy the challenge. Everybody else just gives up/moves on. If they ever bought it in the first place. Yahagi would be another example. Ships that most people can  actually do average in have a bigger range in player ability so have lower stats. Some ships then get dragged down in a second wave of purchasing  long after release by those that look at those high stats and figure it must actually be a good boat and buy it  (Huanghe)

Not sure why WG wouldn't have given them either speed boost or hydro. The gave it sloooow. long reload torps so it really only has its guns.

Looking forward to your video to see what I'm doing wrong. For starters I'm probably getting too close.

Edited by Sabot_100

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20 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Still think some  "trash" ships end up with  much better than expected WR because the only people actually playing them are the ones that can really make them work and enjoy the challenge. Everybody else just gives up/moves on. If they ever bought it in the first place. Yahagi would be another example. Ships that most people can  actually do average in have a bigger range in player ability so have lower stats. Some ships then get dragged down in a second wave of purchasing  long after release by those that look at those high stats and figure it must actually be a good boat and buy it  (Huanghe)

Not sure why WG wouldn't have given them either speed boost or hydro. The gave it sloooow. long reload torps so it really only has its guns.

Looking forward to your video to see what I'm doing wrong. For starters I'm probably getting too close.

Hey Sabot_100,  don't get me wrong ...I'm not saying she's a world beater but we tend to get on a bandwagon of what  this ship doesn't do ,  when sometimes it just doesn't fit in a traditional box.....my thoughts will be on what she has that others do not.....he pen, long range, better armor.....way better accuracy (compared to z39) look it up....when people do reviews they go over the cookie cutter attributes....the z31 hits different attributes...the ones I pointed out earlier....same way as my z35....   I won't have great damage or kills but will win at a decent clip.....that range,he pen , will deter larger ships from cap...that's when you cap with your support .....

Edited by Meta_Man
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Hey I love playing French DDs as DDs hunters and I have faced some tier VIII and IX and those guys hit me pretty hard on Fantasque, Mogador and Kleber, full shots of ~6K.

I always play angled I didn't know if those German DDs hit me hard cuz I was angled or always pen thanks to a short fuse or shot at the water to slowdown the AP. With a full angle I could avoid those pen but I can't use half of my turrets. ¿somebody knows if with a full broadside can I avoid those pens on French DDs?. Please any Info could be pretty usefull to play with em or against em.

Well take that in consideration, those KM DDs could be DD hunters too.

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On 5/16/2021 at 3:03 PM, Sabot_100 said:

Still think some  "trash" ships end up with  much better than expected WR because the only people actually playing them are the ones that can really make them work and enjoy the challenge. Everybody else just gives up/moves on. If they ever bought it in the first place. Yahagi would be another example. Ships that most people can  actually do average in have a bigger range in player ability so have lower stats. Some ships then get dragged down in a second wave of purchasing  long after release by those that look at those high stats and figure it must actually be a good boat and buy it  (Huanghe)

Not sure why WG wouldn't have given them either speed boost or hydro. The gave it sloooow. long reload torps so it really only has its guns.

Looking forward to your video to see what I'm doing wrong. For starters I'm probably getting too close.

Hey

But how do we really know that the claimed Wargaming stats can actually be trusted to be factual?  I find it getting harder and harder to trust Wargaming these days.  Not to mention whether or not they ever play the ships themselves before release unlike to old days where CC's and super testers were know to have played them and made video's only to have Wargaming Nerf them before release.

 

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On 4/27/2021 at 10:30 AM, crazynewt76 said:

NOw I am not your "hero that carries the battle" DD player.  I am your average KM Dd player that shakes his head at the insane OP'dness of all other DD lines.  ..  IF ONLY my Dd could stop on a dime, go reverse, then full speed in less than 5 seconds.  If only I had a heal..  If only my torps had a 15K range that hit like trucks if only my HE did more than 1700 damage if only my smoke last longer. if only my concealment was under 6.1km,  if only ....

 

The new KM line has changed that..  with some sacrifices, yes, but ...  with the main KM DD line, I averaged 27k per battle (yes I suck ..).  That's the thing..  I just would watch my torps burn out LONG before everyone else or hit for 7k (top damage from a Z52 on a T10 BB).  I would watch the gunboats BURN down BBs from a range that I only laughed at.    I would consider it a good battle if I lived..(and won), if I got more than 3 torps hits, or if my damage was about 30K.  The main KM line is just a joke..  watching He "break" but not explode, watch AP bounce off broadsides on anything over 8Km, ..and fires?  wth is a fire in a KM DD ..and a flood?  lmbo!!  I didn't know that floods existed in the KM torp line..  I honestly thought that the KM torp was not able to create a flood.  I've gone down the US DD line, the UK DD line, the IJN line, the Rus DD line, and the European DD line, and ...holy crap those lines were like "easy mode on crack"  Floods, fires, damage racked up ..fast torps, flooding torps, long-range torps, HEALING!!!  and AA guns ...they all make the KM line look like trash.  The ONLY thing about the KM DD line was that the line was made to be a cap bully... HYdro and wait till a CL (close enough) beats the crap out of the red DD, but do NOT show your ship, because one hit from the HE from any other DD line would burn you, disabled something, or plain outright delete half of your HP in 6 seconds...

This is a lot of words for "the old German DDs suck."  Z-52 is dead last in terms of damage per game, and close to it in terms of kills per game.  The win rate overall is surprisingly good I'll admit.  But I wouldn't call other lines OP, just vastly easier to use (with the probable exceptions of the French and Pan-european DDs, but those are also more widely recommended to players (ie. they're considered worth actually playing lol.)

New German DDs might be good.  I won't be holding my breath though.

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Having played the Z-31, it is safe to say that like most tier 7 DDs it is meant to be a "Free XP sink" / "pay to not grind".

The ship has a play style similar to other "gun boats with bad concealment"... but one might be better off in a Leander in a "fail div", if they want that play style.

As far as "weak"/ "bad" ship in the hands of "skilled players" something like:
a tier 3 Varyag ...
or a tier 5 Viribus Unitis ...
... are a prime examples of that.

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I think this is yet another line that doesn't start to get good until t9/10.  I have a Z31 but have not played it, since I got lucky and got the F. Schultz early and have since moved up to Elbing. I think the AP pen isn't really that great until t9.  So for me, the results have not been there consistently yet but I can definitely see the potential.  This is a line of DDs where you absolutely must trade in your favor and only in your favor.  You have a big health pool but its not inexhaustible, and the poor DPM means you can't afford to duel other DDs to see who can burn the other down quicker because you will lose every time.

Buddy up with another DD, leverage your health, look for targets of opportunity.  Once you get to the later stages of a match where the reds have thinned out a bit you can start doing more traditional DD things like capping.  With the t9/10 you can citadel most cruisers out to max range IIRC.  I surprised a Shchors recently in the Schultz that turned out in front of me at around 8km and Dev Struck him from about 60% health.  I realize the Shchors isn't exactly the best protected cruiser in the game, but I've landed multiple cits on CAs too.  If you aim for upper belt, you can farm consistent 4-6k damage salvos against BBs.  If they are distracted, they may be down 20-30k health before they realize what is happening.  Then they have to make the unpleasant choice of angling to you or angling to your BBs.  Your torps are slow, but you can either bait BBs into them or use the torps to turn the BBs to give you or your teammates their side.

These DDs aren't really DDs IMO.  They are crappy CLs that have been given a DD slot in MM and had their citadels removed to compensate.  The gameplay ends up in a strange place that's neither really DD nor CL and it will take some time to find that groove and ride it; stray too far to either side and you will either get nuked early or be ineffective. 

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You guys have missed the point on this new DD line. At Wargaming I got to say thanks! This is now my favorite line and I have played 400 ships over 4 years.

This is NOT a DD it is a light cruiser. And T7 isnt great. T8 is at best average. Go look at right now Elbing is doing 77k per game. Thats bad and good players. Why? Is it the torpedo's.. Hell no.

It is these guns. These guns almost have the Pen of IJN T9 CA. What is special about that?

First they are 150mm. That is the biggest guns on a DD. Accuracy... at 18.6km my dispersion is sick. 75 m Horiz and 45 m Verti. 

At 14km I have 171 mm of Pen.

I am the CA killer. I citadel'd a Mino at 21 degree angle. I blind fire and  my dispersion is so good I citadel  him. My build 4400 damage to a citadel. I have over 34,000 HPs.

With Gunthers I have a chance late game to get a heal. It is easy to get 140 shell hits and get a 7.5% DPS increase.

I have 4 smokes to farm any ship within 18.6 KM range. I have 25 mm of armor to bounce DD shells.

With that accuracy which is tighter the closer they are you never miss. I am hitting between 50-66% of my shots. 960 m/s velocity is one of the best in the game. I snipe dds at 15 km+ range cuz the shells simple are so tight. And I suck at this game.

Improved ricochet angles. 38mm of HE PEN. Possibility of 10% fire chance. Sure  my fire rate isnt great. My DPM isnt great. Why is the ship leading stats at T9/T10? YOU dont miss!

It is exciting to see your shots hit. Farm BBs is easy. Think about the French.. they dont have smoke. You get in trouble smoke and run. Radar... you can stay away from it and still hit it easily.

Every DD, CA, BB is scared of you IF you play the ship correctly. IT is not an early game capper. First 5 minutes follow any dd and just support him. Murder the CA shooting him. Then murder the dd hurting him. Nothing to shoot at find a BB.

I promise this will be the number 1/2 DPS DD at T9/10. Please DONT play this DD. I want to be the only one on the server having the time of my life.

Late game heroics are easy in a ship that can snipe. Not even talking about your ability to kite is stronger than any ship. You have the ability to nail anything at 18.6 KMs. Kleber at 18.9 km has worse Velocity and dispersion of 146 m 88 m. Can you wiggle as well, no. BUT you will hit a lot more than he will. Not easy to hit you at 15km+.

You have 8k more hps and a possibility of a heal with Gunthers.

Does she turn poorly, yes. Are her torpedoes slow, yes. You have to give a ship some weakness,  yes.

Last week I watch Twitch and Youtubers play Elbing and they COULDNT stop. Game after game, day after day. Not one said she was bad. These people KNOW the game.

Watched Trenlass take a Smol from mostly full to dead in 6 seconds. He laughed so hard. DDs hate CA. Well we are the anti CA. I hunt them. I can snipe dds and actually hit due to the accuracy of the guns. I can farm BBs easily.

YOU are all missing the point of how awesome this line is.  Sorry to ramble. I have enjoyed T9/T10 so much it sucks missing your target. YOU dont miss with Elbing! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Diison
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I'm a newer wows player, only been playing for 3 months, so I don't have a lot of history, but I have played many of the current ships. When I first got the z31, I hated it. I thought it would be decent, but I just died within 20 seconds of being spotted. However, I started changing how I play this line. As soon as I stopped playing it like all other DDs, and started playing it more as a BB support, I started to realize how much damage this line can actually dish out. It's accuracy is amazing, and that is its strength. It's torps are too slow, and should probably be another 5 knots faster. I hang out with the BBs, and protect them from DDs and cruisers, and most of all, positioning, positioning, positioning. If you wait until enemy BBs fire main guns, you can spit 3 or 4 volley into their softer parts, and disappear. If you can flank ships, and stay out of the frontline, you can do quite well. One thing I found useful with the torps was forcing enemy to expose their broadside to your teammates. Don't expect torps to do much damage, but I find great success with using torps to force the enemy to avoid. I guess the punchline is that it's a line of "helpers" not a line of "heroes" 

Definitely a non-standard DD. Don't play them like other DDs. 

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On 6/22/2021 at 12:06 PM, Diison said:

This is NOT a DD it is a light cruiser. And T7 isnt great. T8 is at best average. Go look at right now Elbing is doing 77k per game. Thats bad and good players. Why? Is it the torpedo's.. Hell no.

It is these guns. These guns almost have the Pen of IJN T9 CA. What is special about that?

First, they are 150mm. That is the biggest guns on a DD. Accuracy... at 18.6km my dispersion is sick. 75 m Horiz and 45 m Verti. 

At 14km I have 171 mm of Pen.g! 

 

 

 

 

 

Anytime I see this new line on the opposing team I look to see where they "show up".  If they are in the cap zone in the first 5-10 minutes, they are usually dead in the next 2, however, if you see them edging around the flanks taking shots from a greater than the normal range,  you know that you had better watch out for them.

 

I seriously can not tell you how many island-humping CLs and CAs, I have just melted with my guns.  I had this one Baltimore come around a corner nosing in to get his rainbow guns to start raining HE spam and I citt'd him and he ran like a chicken.  He didn't even get a shot off before he was dead - I did not get the "kill" but I took off a good 70% of his island-humping health while a Roon toasted him the rest of the way.  

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I actually, surprisingly, and counter to what I thought, really enjoy G.J. Maerker so far. Don't play it like a destroyer per se. I tend to get a fair bit of damage (if I'm not immediately slaughtered), but that damage does tend to be farming damage when the battle is already won rather than decisive damage that contributes to winning the match, tbh.

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I hated the Z31 when I first started on it. I knew it wasn’t to be played like a traditional DD but I still couldn’t get it to click.

Then I watched a couple of YouTube videos to see what I read put in practice. Then it clicked.

Yes it turns slow and has poor concealment but you work around it. I only have an 8 point captain in it and I’ve been starting to have some really fun and rewarding games. It’s a ship that rewards patience and patient play not rushing around.
I use those slow torps for area denial on likely approaches or on smoke clouds. I’m surprised at the number of hits I’ve gotten.  I think that from the time you launch the torps and the red gets there they forgot you were in the area and don’t expect them. At least that’s a theory. 
 

This is a ship I hated for the first 10-15 games and would only play once in awhile to now I have to play it everyday. Once I slowed down with this ship it got better and I survived longer, did more damage, and contributed more. 

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42
[TORCH]
Beta Testers
184 posts
10,859 battles

I agree 100% with the OP.  I just decided to stop playing this line.  Glacial torps, slow reload, slow turn, avg speed, no boosts or sonar...these are just a few of its good points.  I see no reason to move up in this line when these DDs BARELY improve over the predecessor, whereas the opponents keep getting better.

How in the hell did this turd get out of Beta?

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574
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Hey

I have to be honest I have been doing ok with the T9.  And this was my first game in T10, it was good for #2.

 

Pete

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Hey

Game #4 was top of the board.  Games #2 and 3 was pretty bad, real lousy teams with BB's all far in the back doing very little.  I think it will improve as I get to know the boat (13pt captain).

Pete

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