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Lord_Zath

Zath Chat - State of the Game - What can WG do to bring back the magic? 792 10.3

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In this part of our Zath Chat, we discuss what WG can do to bring back some of the nostalgia we had. 

Do you agree? What would you want to see WG do?
 

 

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My main frustration comes from being tied to team mates who have different objectives than mine (or have simply no clue). Implementing "Raid" type modes where you can engage in PvP but with limited random team dependency would go a long way into recapturing the "lost magic" for me.

Another way would be playing into the strong suit of the game, its art and technical quality is undisputed. This game is beautiful, looks and sounds great and just "being" into the game is a nice experience. Why not create a game mode as Open World that let you roam, explore and experience the beautiful game world? Throw in some "historical flavor" and it could be kinda magical. Imagine steaming around Guadalcanal while there is ongoing combat on the island, transports unloading supplies on the beach, planes roaming the skies and all kind of mayhem happening at sea.

To me, recapturing the magic involves recapturing the "freshness" of the early game experience, not going back in time to "simpler times". I've already lived that time, I have fond memories but I have no interest in reliving that period.

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14 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

My main frustration comes from being tied to team mates who have different objectives than mine (or have simply no clue). Implementing "Raid" type modes where you can engage in PvP but with limited random team dependency would go a long way into recapturing the "lost magic" for me.

 Another way would be playing into the strong suit of the game, its art and technical quality is undisputed. This game is beautiful, looks and sounds great and just "being" into the game is a nice experience. Why not create a game mode as Open World that let you roam, explore and experience the beautiful game world? Throw in some "historical flavor" and it could be kinda magical. Imagine steaming around Guadalcanal while there is ongoing combat on the island, transports unloading supplies on the beach, planes roaming the skies and all kind of mayhem happening at sea.

 To me, recapturing the magic involves recapturing the "freshness" of the early game experience, not going back in time to "simpler times". I've already lived that time, I have fond memories but I have no interest in reliving that period.

Thanks for sharing! "Raid" type modes like Big Hunt? I loved that one. Operations/scenarios would be another option IMO.

DUDE I love the "free sail" idea. That reminds me of Ace Combat games where you can just fly around the map and explore.

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24 minutes ago, Lord_Zath said:

Thanks for sharing! "Raid" type modes like Big Hunt? I loved that one. Operations/scenarios would be another option IMO.

Indeed like Key Battles/Big Hunt. I have my hopes high we will soon have the mode implemented into the core game, I think it worked really good in terms of detaching yourself from "team ballast" and making for a more "honest" experience, there you can't blame no one but yourself if things go the wrong way for you. 

Regarding Ops, a lot of us want them as a guy lost in a desert cherish for water. But the message from the Devs has been very clear, it isn't happening and afaik it isn't even being considered for further development. So it feel's like a fool's dream, which is very sad as is very easy to imagine how much potential (in terms of fun and entertainment) Ops/Scenarios can have. Heck, they could release an Scenario editor tool and we would gladly make the job for them.

37 minutes ago, Lord_Zath said:

DUDE I love the "free sail" idea. That reminds me of Ace Combat games where you can just fly around the map and explore.

I think it would be a game mode a lot of guys would enjoy, just think about how many players we have that are not that deep into "competitive" PvP and are "forced" to play something relatively "hardcore" as Randoms/Ranked just because there's no other viable options where to play the ships and enjoy the game. Imo it would go a great length into making the game more enjoyable for everyone and expanding the playerbase, reaching to those guys that like the ships, enjoy the historical setting but want a more "relaxed" experience. I'm a fairly competitive guy but many days I just don't want to "think" or "try hard" and want just to chill, relax and go pew pew. Those days I rarely play this game. 

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Open the low tiers up to Dailies, but in co-op mode only so that the clubbers can't harass the people just out of protected MM. IMHO the lower base XP gains especially in co-op at these tiers are a natural balancing factor.

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43 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Open the low tiers up to Dailies, but in co-op mode only so that the clubbers can't harass the people just out of protected MM. IMHO the lower base XP gains especially in co-op at these tiers are a natural balancing factor.

Love this idea!
 

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A ship such as HMNZS Gambia to acknowledge New Zealand representation in the game.  Indian avatar for INS Mysore at level 15 (makes up for levels that you may have already grinded on captain that came with ship).  Lastly either HMS Renown or Repulse.   

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image.thumb.png.4d34b8633e0a0d25537e054bac6dd59c.png

I think I agree with a lot of the points, but this game is somewhat limited by content:

  • The recent string of line releases has not IMO contained many 'winners', the US battleships were bad until Vermont and needed emergency buffs, Italian battleships seem similar, RU cruiser split was very 'meh' and the upcoming German destroyer split is being lambasted as bad at lower tiers. There simply aren't the 'OMG!' lines left to release - German and British battleships come to mind. The next line of ships is 'ok' I guess, paper from T4 and up Dutch cruisers with a confused consumable. Who's excited for Eendracht? Anyone? No.
  • There are a lot of premiums, but like ship lines we're lower and lower on good/interesting designs with noteworthy history. I can remember the release of Hood, the excitement, the questions of balance, actually shelling out money for once to have her. These days we seem to get insane memes which may or may not be fun, or pretty questionable and boring ships, frequently very much made up by WG like Agir, Pommern, Immelman, Marco Polo etc. Some work out fine but there's not much 'star appeal' left.
  • As you run out of 'normal' ships to include, and use up design space you're forced to move to the edges of game design. Firstly that adds some pretty repressive ships (Smolensk, Thunderer, Belfast '43). Secondly that adds some over-gimmick-dependent ships (Paolo) and thirdly if you dodge either the first or second pitfall you may end up with 'oh this is just X cloned, but worse'.

I also really hate the "early access" line release policy. Lootboxes to start, half the line, some more lootboxes, then eventually release the rest when the hype is good and dead. I remember the French DD line in particular was ridiculous, released the first few ships, then a couple more, then a random empty patch cycle, then finally kicked Kleber out into the wild about 4 months into the 'release'. It's hard to get excited about new lines when they just smear the content out across patches and patches and... yeah.

Also carriers make the game less fun, they were awful pre-rework but at least they were rarer and WG didn't waste time on new dead-on-arrival lines for them, and stupid comedic imbalanced T10 'specials' that they lack the gumption to nerf.

Did we used to have 'scandals' sure, but there seems a greater predatory viciousness to WG's monetization at the moment.

 

TL/DR - some of this seems inevitable as the game ages through content, but the monetization feels nastier now than it ever has before.

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The current reward system rewards selfish play only.  

right now all people care about is farming damage from whatever BB they see, they don't care about the caps, they don't care about trying to shoot DDs they don't care about trying to win.  it's all about farming damage.

They need to drastically reduce the points earned from damage, and massively boost the points earned from spotting, capturing and defending caps, and sinking DDs/CAs, maybe even shooting down planes.  

NEXT: Toxic Community - something needs to be done about this

If I play a CV i have zero reason to do anything for my team.  If I play a team game, spotting, focusing DDs, and helping take caps, I get -Karma and reported for not helping the other Cap, or not shooting down planes, or simply playing a CV.  If I sink ships I get reported for "farming damage" or "not shooting down planes" or not spotting, or playing a CV, If i focus on defending from planes I get complaints for not protecting the right person from planes, not spotting, not sinking DDs, and playing a carrier.  2 matches playing a CV and I can lost 10 karma, even if I lead the team in points, and we win the match.  Recently I got into a cursing match with a dingleberry who wanted me to send my planes to the far end of the map along the backline to hunt/spot a single Daring, which for some reason half our team was chasing, while out left flank crumbled and I no one way addresssing the issue (me and two other ships were trying to hold back 5 BBs and 2 CAs plus a DD from the falling flank singlehandedly); We held off the flank, but while we were fighting and losing a battle on the flank I'm getting reported for "throwing the match" by the asshats chasing the daring, cussed out publicly for being a terrible CV captain (I ended the match over 120k damage and 3 sunk ships), and for failing to spot the daring which was hiding (btw) next to their CV, under the CV's air cover.  

I cussed them out for ignoring the collapsed flank, got reported for chat behavior, got reported for bad play, and lost 7 karma by the end of a match we won.  

So tell me, if a CV played gets complaints when they play well and help the team win, and complaints if they play selfishly and the team loses, why would he ever sacrifice points for damage delt to help the team win via spotting and other activities?? 

I'm not even a CV main, I hate playing them, yet even I wonder where people's heads are.   and this is just CVs, I noticed the community is full of toxic asshats recently.  and no one is doing anything about it.  

Edited by Azanimefan
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Two relatively 'simple' (if not easy) things to bring some magic back.

1. New / Revised Maps - as several recent threads have stated and I agree wholeheartedly with, we haven't seen a new map in over a year I think and the maps we have are getting very stale.

2. Return of the Scenarios - Ultimate Frontier, Cherry Blossom, Op. Dynamo and others NEED to come back!

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I dont think you have to go recapture magic if people are still here for over 5 years (maybe some on and off thru the years), you just have to listen to what they are saying and make them feel like what they are saying about the game they have been playing for a long time matters.  As for me personally I liked the big hunt events and would love to see more operations or the return of the operations now removed.  On a PVP level I would like to see clan alliances instead of the current merc system they have.  Have maybe three clans able to communicate with each other over a chat channel and not get penalized for clan battles by not receiving oil if they only have few players that can do clan battles. 

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If I was in charge I would remove the Game Chat entirely.

I would rescind the Commander Skills back to pre 0.10.0.

Then I would add more skills to the existing tree without changing the positions of pre additional skills.

I would continue the WG progression of skills at the same rate of exp needed to advance. 500k and 700k is way too much.

I would stop the continual events and slow down the introduction of new ships.

I would place the priority on new Operations for all of the tiers 2 thru 10 an Operation for each tier.

The rewards for the Operations would be revolving quarterly. { new rewards every 3 months }

I would make the Operations difficult but nowhere near impossible. { Teamwork  makes it easy to win }

I would rid the system of the multiple economies. Credits and doubloons is enough.

I would make daily containers with the commodity the player selected. { Credits 100k, signals 4, camos 2, consumables 2, resources 1200.}

I would make the daily containers contents a player pre-selection page for signals/camos and consumables. {What the player needs/wants}{{reduced Quantity}} A requisition form in kind.

If a super container is dropped it would contain the commodity the player selected but at a far greater quantity x5 or Doubloons/Ships.

When all is said and done these changes are not designed to push players away but to make the time spent in-game worth while.

All this would bring back some form of enjoyment to the player base.

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  • separate team chat from all chat and allow a player to disable either or both at the same time
  • use ocean map all day everyday... just kidding!! (not really)  well no but get rid of the island humping firestorm peekaboo pvp game
  • stop being cheap with captain skill resets, reduce them to 25% of today's cost in dubs and reduce ecxp cost for the same by at least the same amount
  • stop with the damn chain bundles in the armory
  • limit cv's in T4-5 matches to 1, at T6 and up fine dbl them if you have to
  • remove the ability for surface ships to shoot 100% accurately at targets not in LOS
  • nerf bb sap damage if you have to but please improve the accuracy of the pastaboats
  • consider spending money on developing historic scenarios

 

420 dream...     give us a persistent global map we can sail  (See Naval action)

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Thanks all for sharing their ideas!

@mofton I agree I don't like the "early access" and loot bundle thing either. 

As for new lines being "meh" I wonder if that's because WG's afraid of releasing the lines in an OP state then nerfing them after. Then you get the "I paid money to convert doubloons to FXP so I could get to the OP T10 and WG nerfed it!" arguments. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

Maps, maps, maps, YES!

@SKurj skill reset should be 100% free IMO for at least the 1st month or any time there's a big commander change, like the upcoming patch removing deadeye and tweaking other skills. If not free, at least make it 50% off! 

Keep'em coming, everyone!

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A good start would be: " To stop ignoring player feed back that doesn't echo the marketing material word for word... "

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Thanks; I needed this discussion.

The recent events have been really dull due to the lack of new game modes; Early Access ship events nowadays are boring in general as they're only accompanied by long, drawn-out missions to earn the ships. It doesn't help that the new lines are questionable or mediocre; they don't change up the meta. Dockyard is a formula that works but it's boring when it's all the event has to offer. Unlike the British destroyers event, we didn't have Operation Dynamo or random mission drops to earn the ships (which didn't take much time to complete). Back then, the only thing that made me come back to the game was the events. Team events, Operation Cherry Blossom, new game modes, and exclusive rewards all enticed me to play the game.

I also dislike the apparent obsessive focus on pushing out high-tier ships and making mediocre low-tier ships. T10 isn't the only thing we play; low-tier gameplay exists too.

Nowadays, I don't see much creativity in their game modes nor ships. I wonder if the developers are burned out or being creatively held back?

I've been playing other games lately. World of Warships has been pretty stagnant for a year now. The moments where the game hasn't been stagnant have been filled with controversy.

Edited by destawaits
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2 hours ago, Lord_Zath said:

@mofton I agree I don't like the "early access" and loot bundle thing either. 

As for new lines being "meh" I wonder if that's because WG's afraid of releasing the lines in an OP state then nerfing them after. Then you get the "I paid money to convert doubloons to FXP so I could get to the OP T10 and WG nerfed it!" arguments. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess.

They seem 'meh' but there's a pretty strong pattern of the lower tiers being particularly bad, and the T10 well, not.

EU DD -
Low tiers: crappy carrier bait
Oland: awful
Oyster: okish
Halland: Strong, competitive, popular

RU Cruisers -
Tallinn: so bad it got buffed post release, still awful
Riga: meh
Petropavlosk: overwhelmingly banned from KOTS after release

US battleships -
Kansas and Minnesota: so bad they were buffed while still in early access(!), and still awful
Vermont: few if any complaints about this ship, could be a few % nerfed and be fine

Italian battleships -
Low tiers: meh
Carac and Veneto: About the worst ships at their tiers I've played, some fans, many complaints
Lepanto: good/ok reputation
Columbo: Seems popular, early

German DD -
Z-31 and Maerker: Apparently justified reputation as craptacular
T9: Reputation as better
T10: On-paper better, more anticipation

 

If WG underpower the T10 then there's less incentive to spend FXP/doubs/ultimately money to get there. If WG underpower the low tiers there's even more incentive to FXP up there and skip the crap. WG are ultimately financially incentivized to keep the low tiers worse.

While if they did over-do and then nerf the T10's people might be cross (though you'll enjoy the OP ship for months-years as things like Thunderer show...), the more sensible strategy would be to make them underpowered like the rest of the line, then you can always buff.

Five lines in a row the lower tiers have been generally bad-poor and the T10 has been at least decent if not very good. That doesn't seem coincidental.

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I'm more of the notion that WG should often have decently powerful ships on release, such as the British DDs, to sell more copies and give everyone more chances to encounter the ship in battle and form an opinion about them. If ship lines are underpowered on release, they might carry that underpowered stigma even when balanced, resulting in people still avoiding the line, unless they receive a significant buff.

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Yeah the seemingly OP TX ships isn't anything new.

Yamato >>>> Izumo (remember its' stupid heal?),

Conqueror >>>>>>>>>>> Lion (remember its' stupid heal?),

Minotaur >>>>> Neptune,

Hindenburg >>>>>>>> Roon,

Zao >>>>>> Ibuki,

Worcester >>>>>>>>>>>> Seattle,

Daring >>> Jutland,

Des Moines >>>>>> Buffalo.

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Revert back to the "Fair Play" Doctrine in their decision matrix for long term stability.


Not the short term strategy of power creep/favoritism  for short term gains/instability.

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If you want to bring the "Magic" back and revive the "nostalgic" feel of the game, I suggest brushing off "Hermes", "Cherry Blossom", and "Dynamo". Once they were back in rotation, I would work on adding additional Scenarios (someone in WoWs is doing all that research to make the historical vids). Use that research to build Scenarios from those historical missions. Let us see if we can make history repeat or alter what historically happened.

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5 hours ago, Talons_Strike said:

If you want to bring the "Magic" back and revive the "nostalgic" feel of the game, I suggest brushing off "Hermes", "Cherry Blossom", and "Dynamo". Once they were back in rotation, I would work on adding additional Scenarios (someone in WoWs is doing all that research to make the historical vids). Use that research to build Scenarios from those historical missions. Let us see if we can make history repeat or alter what historically happened.

Many of the ideas above are really good ideas.  Scenarios are one of the modes that seriously can make or break this game's future.  Let's look at scenarios differently though:  Imagine scenarios that are expanded ship tiers !  Not just 6 and 7....  As the Scenarios advance in tiers so do the weapons capabilities....  Many were discussing Asymmetrical combat operations.........well, let's get a little less symmetrical and talk about tier 8 combat teams with less players and only two ships being tier 8 and the rest being tiers 6 and 7.....  The bad guys would be all Tier 8 or whatever the tier selected is.   We could rotate tiers...... weekly....

PVE Special Missions:  a lot of players in this game are lone wolf types and do not want to "team for anything...."  The single player storyline is videogame history.  Why not create 6 month Campaigns that delve into specific operations from the 20th century.........  Not just WW2.   Jutland meeting engagement that actually progress in tier from 1 to 6.  That would help new players "build and participate" with a mode they can't be farmed in......... And, at the end of that SP campaign, the reward is a Premium ship and a CPT for it........a six month long campaign.

PVP Special Missions:   The North Atlantic.   Be the Axis and have a wolfpack, a DD or two and a Carrier that is anchored in Norway.  The Allies have all of those ships to protect all the way in with DD's, CL's and some CA's...  PVP.....tactics needed because the Uboats can choose their spawn points......  They know the general convoy routes........their planes and DD's can spot............they then can choose where to deploy...........and, the Allies then........can change paths if they want to...... Or, the Axis can simply wait for them in silence......  tactics then rules the waves and skill and working together is either victory or defeat.

Balancing consumables.  Radar has a counter.  Planes meet AA Radar and Special munitions.  Carriers have the ability to fight other Carriers first to gain Air Superiority in Air Superiority designated matches......  Let the Carriers have it out and then, have to attempt to deal with Flak and Picket ships that are designed from the hull up to fight planes.......let's see who tactically is smart enough.......

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If WG wants to bring back the magic they need to:

  • Stop power creep on purchased ships
  • Make match +1/-1
  • Make MM actually work and sort teams based on statistics
  • Remove Gamble Boxes
  • Remove Subs or any idea of subs
  • Make CV's Coop only or enable an option to opt out of CV games.
  • Cut mission completion requirements in half
  • Nerf overpowered ships and offer a refund in dubloons for the prems and credits / fexp for the lines.
  • Rebalance free ship lines to be more in line with one another.
  • Emphasize Operations to new Players.
Edited by RenamedUser_1014381829
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On 4/22/2021 at 10:09 PM, Lord_Zath said:

Yeah the seemingly OP TX ships isn't anything new.

But your examples are all lines that have good ships in lower tiers. Lately, the new lines tend to be trash with only the T10s being good. 

I do agree that WG has painted themselves into a corner with so many different currencies. They're cranking out so many new premiums they don’t have resources to develop new maps or restore lost scenarios. 

The skills rework was a swing and a miss. Need to reduce the CXP required to move from 19 to 21 points to about 750k where it should have been had it followed the mathematical progression. 1.2MM is simply absurd. Cruiser skills need to be redone. Too much variety in cruisers. Some are mini BBs, some are overgrown DDs. Almost need different skills for CA and CL. Not to mention CBs. 

Get rid of the situational skills. Many players try to position to activate the skill rather than playing the objective. Dead eye was the most egregious, but not the only one. 

And perhaps WG could try listening to suggestions on counters to CV rather than responding with a strawman argument. Nah, that will never happen. 

Edited by ZARDOZ_II
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