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Hello!

Wargaming not long ago released the news about a future game mode "Allies vs Axis" in the development blog (Link: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122). I want to highlight: "If the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes, teams might be filled with bots with improved AI".

I suggest Co-Op gets these bots as well as an increased base income. This will increase the popularity of this game mode as well as it will be an option more players would take into consideration. Many players are not interested in this game mode because it is too easy or because it doesn't give many rewards. I think the improved AI bots will give an oportunity for many players to practice and have fun while still not getting low rewards. Maybe some Co-Op players don't want this change; therefore, this could be done in a brand new game mode. I think this will improve the World of Warships experience for many players.

What do you think?

Have a good day! Remember to think positive.

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2 hours ago, azabraham_azaabra said:

Hello!

Wargaming not long ago released the news about a future game mode "Allies vs Axis" in the development blog (Link: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122). I want to highlight: "If the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes, teams might be filled with bots with improved AI".

I suggest Co-Op gets these bots as well as an increased base income. This will increase the popularity of this game mode as well as it will be an option more players would take into consideration. Many players are not interested in this game mode because it is too easy or because it doesn't give many rewards. I think the improved AI bots will give an oportunity for many players to practice and have fun while still not getting low rewards. Maybe some Co-Op players don't want this change; therefore, this could be done in a brand new game mode. I think this will improve the World of Warships experience for many players.

What do you think?

Have a good day! Remember to think positive.

@Pulicat makes a good point in that WG doesn't want people to enjoy Co-Op; many do, but that isn't the point.

WG can't even be bothered to create new scenarios, Ops or maps for the modes they want people to play - so they are unlikely to improve those they don't.

Pretty much the game is what it is. The cycle is to churn out more ships, get people to make purchases, nerf said ships in some manner, and bring out new ships to sell. It's not as if it hasn't been going on for some time now.

Enjoy what you have for as long as you can, the only thing likely to change are the ships they want you to buy. :Smile_honoring:

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Pretty sure at one point co op had improved AI

It was apparently actually winning, so it got removed

WG WHY U NO LET BOTS WIN

 

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28 minutes ago, frankfletcher_1 said:

Pretty sure at one point co op had improved AI

It was apparently actually winning, so it got removed

WG WHY U NO LET BOTS WIN

 

It wasn't that it was winning...it was just a bunch of bots running away that took an extra 10 minutes to chase them all down...for the exact same XP.

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1 hour ago, frankfletcher_1 said:

Pretty sure at one point co op had improved AI

It was apparently actually winning, so it got removed

WG WHY U NO LET BOTS WIN

 

I am not aware that bots were given better AI (unless it was the period I stopped playing for around 8-10 months (in 2018-19 I think). I have also heard the scenario @IfYouSeeKhaos talks about, but because I don't believe the bots live long enough - it wasn't something that I noticed.

I believe that is why many asked for the number of bots you face to increase - but all WG did was increase the number on both sides. It is a balancing game and we are talking WG here, in their quest for money they keep introducing gimmicks, churning out new ships, make global changes and Captain changes - this can't make balancing easy. But like I say, money is the principle factor here.

 

I had 8 Co-Op games yesterday where there was only one other human playing - I have never seen games like that in that number ever before. It was great - as the usual sacrifice of your bots took place at the beginning, that then meant fighting against ships that have good accuracy (even though they may not use that accuracy at the optimum time) and outnumber you. One of the best game sessions I've had in a long while.

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6 hours ago, azabraham_azaabra said:

Hello!

Wargaming not long ago released the news about a future game mode "Allies vs Axis" in the development blog (Link: https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122). I want to highlight: "If the waiting time spent by the first player in the queue exceeds 3 minutes, teams might be filled with bots with improved AI".

I suggest Co-Op gets these bots as well as an increased base income. This will increase the popularity of this game mode as well as it will be an option more players would take into consideration. Many players are not interested in this game mode because it is too easy or because it doesn't give many rewards. I think the improved AI bots will give an oportunity for many players to practice and have fun while still not getting low rewards. Maybe some Co-Op players don't want this change; therefore, this could be done in a brand new game mode. I think this will improve the World of Warships experience for many players.

What do you think?

Have a good day! Remember to think positive.

WG publicly stated over a year ago that they are not doing any PVE improvements (Co-op nor Scenarios). They are focused solely on PVP as they believe that is all that matters. Outside of very small and easy changes they just aren't going to do much for the PVE side. Again, they have come right out and stated this clear as day. What we have is what we get.

The bottom line is they don't want us in PVE. Co-op was created originally as a training mode. They didn't envision it becoming a popular stand alone mode. Unfortunately, they refuse to change their view of the mode and those who play there. Because so many of us gravitated to it they are stuck with it now unless they want to lose a bunch of players who spend so they keep it around and throw us a bone now and then.

They actually are slowly killing Scenarios off too because they were too popular. They claim they are doing it because not enough players play the Op's which is hilarious really as WG broke them and removed them with the CV Rework, when they finally came back only some of them did and those were/are broken and glitchy, they seriously nerfed the rewards, and so forth. I mean people can't play them if they aren't available and no one wants to play broken modes with nerfed rewards. Players CONSTANTLY ask for new Scenarios but WG refuses. They don't want us in PVE.

IF they had their way they would force us all into PVP where they think we belong. They try their best to do that actually (and fail). They either can't see the potential for PVE and increased revenues and a larger player base or they don't care. Save yourself the hassle and time of trying to get them to improve the PVE modes. Just not happening.

And there is no way WG will ever increase Co-op rewards. Honestly, I am ok with that with the AI as is. If it ever is truly improved and made better/harder then they should be but for now no; it's fine.

2 hours ago, frankfletcher_1 said:

Pretty sure at one point co op had improved AI

It was apparently actually winning, so it got removed

WG WHY U NO LET BOTS WIN

 

This is one of those Urban Myths that is so false it is beyond belief yet it continues to rear it's ugly head here on the forums. It is perpetuated by WG themselves, CC's/Streamers, and anti PVE forum members. The narrative they put forth is 100% absolutely rubbish and sadly people who weren't here for it fall for it and think it is true! I was here and trust me what people say happened didn't.

The only truth to the whole thing is WG tried to improve the AI. It was in the mid 0.7.# update cycle as I recall. So that part is actually true and some of it was an actual improvement. The bots would somewhat use their smoke, they would actually WASD a bit (some of the DD's looked drunk they zigged and zagged so much LOL), they didn't all go to the same predictable routes all the time, etc... Those things were pretty good and Co-op mains told WG that and asked they keep that stuff.

Unfortunately, there was another change and it sucked royal monkey butt! WG thought "improving the AI" meant making them play like PVP players who are afraid to fight and who run at the 1st sign of danger. OMG it was awful. One of the main reasons people prefer Co-op to PVP is you actually get to brawl and fight vs the passive peek-a-boo meta of PVP. Another thing we love about the mode is, because the bots don't hide and charge in to fight, the matches are over faster. No long drawn out boring games going 20 mins while the last few reds or greens run and hide. YAWN!

So these improved bots, which we all called the chicken bots, would move up as usual at the start of the game BUT as soon as the greens were engaged and a few shots fired off they ran for the rest of the game. They would spend the rest of the game running away (most of them anyway) and you had to chase them down one by one. It was so boring and terrible it is beyond words to describe. The games ran a good 5+ minutes longer for the exact same outcome (90%+ human team wins) and the same crappy rewards. It was not harder or better; it was just longer. If you don't like having to hunt down and find the red bot CV at the end of the game you would REALLY hate those chicken bots. 

I think, at least in part, to help with the Mercy Rule WG actually has brought the chicken bots back in a limited role. Pay attention in game now to how there is usually 1, sometimes 2, bots (usually BB but have seen Cruisers and even DD's do it) that hang back and don't charge ahead with the rest. They will instead sort of sail back and forth at the back until the game is winding down. Only then will they commit and come fight OR once you chase them they run for the furthest away end of the map (the ones who run away are what the chicken bots did and it was multiple ones every game). 

The only area that update made harder was the very lowest levels of Co-op (like T1-T3). Many of us voiced concerns they made those low tier bots a little too good for new players just learning the game and that it might drive them away. Normally the bots at those tiers have really REALLY bad accuracy, play even more stupid than usual, etc... but they made them little terminators. Didn't bother veteran players but down there for the noobs we had concerns and pointed that out to WG.

So players came on the forums and complained. However, we made it clear it was ONLY the chicken bots we hated and that maybe they over did it a bit at the low tiers for the noobs. We asked the chicken bots be removed and the hard chargers returned but keep all the rest (and look into the low tier issue). But WG had a tantrum and took it all away and put back the old AI. Then a short time after this totally inaccurate fairy tale about how Co-op players complained it was too hard, Co-op WR% dropped too much, etc... appeared and it has been repeated over and over since.  It's is total crap.

Sorry this was so long but whenever I see this myth posted I will correct the record so people know what really happened. Don't let others (including WG) tell you otherwise. The truth is right above^^^. I was there, I played through it, it was not harder or better, and WR% didn't fall (if they did it was miniscule and statistically irrelevant - not to mention Co-op players aren't obsessed with WR% to begin with as that is more a PVP thing). That was a story WG has put out there to cover up their failure because they just can't admit they were wrong or failed at something. It always has to be someone else's (players) fault. All they had to do was take the chicken bots out, leave the rest, maybe ease up on the terminators at the lowest tiers, and they would have had a huge success. But nope, they took all of it away; the good and the bad.

14 minutes ago, _WaveRider_ said:

I am not aware that bots were given better AI (unless it was the period I stopped playing for around 8-10 months (in 2018-19 I think). I have also heard the scenario @IfYouSeeKhaos talks about, but because I don't believe the bots live long enough - it wasn't something that I noticed.

I believe that is why many asked for the number of bots you face to increase - but all WG did was increase the number on both sides. It is a balancing game and we are talking WG here, in their quest for money they keep introducing gimmicks, churning out new ships, make global changes and Captain changes - this can't make balancing easy. But like I say, money is the principle factor here.

 

I had 8 Co-Op games yesterday where there was only one other human playing - I have never seen games like that in that number ever before. It was great - as the usual sacrifice of your bots took place at the beginning, that then meant fighting against ships that have good accuracy (even though they may not use that accuracy at the optimum time) and outnumber you. One of the best game sessions I've had in a long while.

Yes WG did do a big attempt to improve the AI. Read above ^^^. Was in the mid 0.7.# update cycle somewhere.

You would have noticed the chicken bots BELIEVE ME because they ran away as soon as the shooting started and you spent a LONG time chasing them down. Games took forever!!!! The best example I can remember was when 2 of us (humans - think I was in New Orleans and they in a BB but may have been reversed) went to A cap on 2 Brothers. We were the only 2 to spawn over there. Normally that would mean only 2 bots spawned on our side but in that update they mixed things up with the bots not being so predictable. We suddenly found ourselves facing either 4 or 5 bots coming for us (can't remember exact but I know it was at least 2v1 in their favor - I think it was 5 tbh).

Obviously we had to turn off as we couldn't take on that many by ourselves. They got into the cap and were shooting at us as we started to kite away. Then, as we returned fire and started hitting them every one of them turned and left the cap and ran for the back of the map. I am dead serious. The 2 of us turned, went back into the cap and got it and then chased the bots down that ran away and killed them 1 by 1. The old normal bots would have taken the cap, taken our lunch money, dunked our heads in the toilet, and then killed us.

WG actually increased the bots to 9 p/ side (and also upped the starting points by 100 for each team) in an attempt to curb the Mercy Rule from kicking in so often. It has actually worked pretty good. Think they brought the chicken bots back, in a limited role, too to help with this issue as it keeps that/those out of harms way so points don't drop so fast(see above). The MR still happens now and then but no where near the levels it used to which had got out of hand.

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Maybe they should be asking why randoms aren’t fun for those spending a lot of time in co-op. Here’s a partial list.

* Power-crept, pay-to-win ships restricted to the few who live the game. The research bureau and dockyard are the glaring examples. One cannot even access the RB until they max out four lines, and the grind at higher tiers is more work than it is fun, unless you have a lot of 21 point captains and a lot of resources lying around. Paolo Emilio (RB only), Ohio (RB only), ZF-6 (dockyard) are some of the stronger ships around, restricted to the few who must either spend eight hours a day playing or an awful lot of real money. 

* Another feature of the power-creep is the horrible matchmaking that puts ships like T6 London, T6 Leone, T7 Yūdachi, in 1930s configurations, routinely up against T8-T9 ships in late war configurations with faster guns, better concealment, more protection, better detection (i.e. the radar consumable) driven by players with maxed out captains. I put seven of eight 610mm Japanese fish from Yūdachi into a fresh Georgia last night at point blank range and did not sink it. Not even close. Leone has four weaker tubes and it is slower, I’ve had bots in Amagis literally chase me down while I was desperately trying to jink and hide long enough for my tubes to reload, after an ambush where all four fish into it didn’t take it down. A human player with a 21 point captain on an Amagi would have obliterated me immediately after that and I’d never have got that far. At least the bot (:Borckenhagen:) made it interesting before it blapped me, and I had a chance to put two more fish into it and still not sink it. 

* Inexplicable nerfs of popular features such as IFHE and secondaries on German BBs and Massachusetts, and adding griefer-enhancing features like Deadeye and the torpedo protection skill that makes weak torpedoes, prevalent on a lot of ships that are built around torpedoes, even more weak. 

* The commander skill rework, which leaves only the most dedicated whales and full time players with lots of resources with 21 point captains, the rest of us filthy casuals can’t compete with that, and high tier random matches seem to be dominated by those players. Also, the meta in Randoms is hiding and sniping and that is boring to do for full length matches. 

* The prevalence of CVs, which a lot of ships can’t counter at all. AA on many T5+ ships is virtually nonexistent (most DDs, especially Japanese premiums, and Viribus Unitis are good examples). In co-op you never see more than one, and often, none. It’s not fun for a DD or small cruiser with no AA to speak of to get hassled to the death of a thousand cuts by aircraft it can’t defend against. Rocket planes from a T8 Lexington will rip away half the health of a T7 Shiratsuyu or Akatsuki in one shot, and the DDs can’t effectively fight back. And Akatsuki has some of the best AA on a Japanese mid tier DD. 

* The impending release of submarines, speaking of things you can’t counter. WG’s design team doesn’t seem to realize that people just don’t like to be experience piñatas for others, especially others they can’t even shoot back at. It isn’t fun. The truth is that in our own head canon, each one of us wants to be an invincible hero. That’s why games and movies featuring one great hero cleaning up Gotham or a small town in 1870s New Mexico are so popular. Everyone wants to be Clint Eastwood in the “Dollars” trilogy or for us gals, Sharon Stone in “The Quick and the Dead.” Games that facilitate that are popular. The reality is that most of us actually are the ones on the *other side* of that snake-handled Peacemaker. And we don’t like to be reminded of that every single time we hit the “commit” button to start a match. 

* The completely inane decision to remove popular Operation scenarios and not ever rework or replace them. PvE is always going to be popular, and WG could monetize that even more effectively than they can randomize the PvP modes, it’s just more work for them because of the AI necessary to do it. PvP is easy, because then you have no need for AI. But in reality, a lot of us...a lot of us who spend money too...just won’t ever be powerful enough to be competitive in Randoms or Ranked or whatever other gladiator mode is the flavor of the month at WG no matter how high the rewards are for sticking your toe in the water. The only ships I will take into a random match are big, T8 battleships and I own two, Ignis Purgatio and Massachusetts. WG wiped out Massachusetts formerly dominating secondaries and left it in a place where it can shoot 200 rounds of 5” and land 20 hits even with manual secondaries activated. IP is a good boat but it was power crept AA-wise from jump and suffers from a battlecruiser armor scheme that makes it meat for T10 heavyweights like Yamato and T9 bruisers like Georgia that can outrange it and have better guns and better armor. Yeah, I’m a co-op main. But nearly all of the 30 ships I own are premiums. Granted, a lot of coal ships and lucky container drops are in that mix. I don’t whale, but I do spend from time to time. WG isn’t interested in keeping my attention. I’ve been in the game since 2015, I think, and I have zero 21 point captains. Not one. My top three are 18, 16, and 13. I’ve mastered no tech tree lines; I’ve made one as far as T9, and two others to T7. Three quarters of the matches I’ve played are in T5-T7, and 90% are in co-op and operations. 

WG won’t put resources into co-op modes. They’re too busy putting out OP dockyard ships and promoting B-movie tie-ins that need real money to experience the content, but are focused on the same old same old under the flashy skin. The ships they’re promoting in the Kong v. Godzilla promo aren’t even ships I own, or ever have owned. Unless you have ground them out, you’re effectively locked out of the content. That’s a lot of work for content most players will only see in the hands of a few CCs in YouTube videos. 

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1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Yes WG did do a big attempt to improve the AI. Read above ^^^. Was in the mid 0.7.# update cycle somewhere.

You would have noticed the chicken bots BELIEVE ME because they ran away as soon as the shooting started and you spent a LONG time chasing them down. Games took forever!!!! The best example I can remember was when 2 of us (humans - think I was in New Orleans and they in a BB but may have been reversed) went to A cap on 2 Brothers. We were the only 2 to spawn over there. Normally that would mean only 2 bots spawned on our side but in that update they mixed things up with the bots not being so predictable. We suddenly found ourselves facing either 4 or 5 bots coming for us (can't remember exact but I know it was at least 2v1 in their favor - I think it was 5 tbh).

Obviously we had to turn off as we couldn't take on that many by ourselves. They got into the cap and were shooting at us as we started to kite away. Then, as we returned fire and started hitting them every one of them turned and left the cap and ran for the back of the map. I am dead serious. The 2 of us turned, went back into the cap and got it and then chased the bots down that ran away and killed them 1 by 1. The old normal bots would have taken the cap, taken our lunch money, dunked our heads in the toilet, and then killed us.

WG actually increased the bots to 9 p/ side (and also upped the starting points by 100 for each team) in an attempt to curb the Mercy Rule from kicking in so often. It has actually worked pretty good. Think they brought the chicken bots back, in a limited role, too to help with this issue as it keeps that/those out of harms way so points don't drop so fast(see above). The MR still happens now and then but no where near the levels it used to which had got out of hand.

Well it doesn't surprise me that WGs efforts was just to get the AI to turn and evade - minimal effort on their part to provide something that 'gives the community what it asked for' (when in fact it was nowhere near what was asked for).

In general I am at peace with the game, I still enjoy it, know that the money route WG has adopted will cause its death - but feel I've had good value from it and they certainly made some coin from me - all good! :Smile_Default:

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1 hour ago, Chados said:

Maybe they should be asking why randoms aren’t fun for those spending a lot of time in co-op. Here’s a partial list.

* Power-crept, pay-to-win ships restricted to the few who live the game. The research bureau and dockyard are the glaring examples. One cannot even access the RB until they max out four lines, and the grind at higher tiers is more work than it is fun, unless you have a lot of 21 point captains and a lot of resources lying around. Paolo Emilio (RB only), Ohio (RB only), ZF-6 (dockyard) are some of the stronger ships around, restricted to the few who must either spend eight hours a day playing or an awful lot of real money. 

* Another feature of the power-creep is the horrible matchmaking that puts ships like T6 London, T6 Leone, T7 Yūdachi, in 1930s configurations, routinely up against T8-T9 ships in late war configurations with faster guns, better concealment, more protection, better detection (i.e. the radar consumable) driven by players with maxed out captains. I put seven of eight 610mm Japanese fish from Yūdachi into a fresh Georgia last night at point blank range and did not sink it. Not even close. Leone has four weaker tubes and it is slower, I’ve had bots in Amagis literally chase me down while I was desperately trying to jink and hide long enough for my tubes to reload, after an ambush where all four fish into it didn’t take it down. A human player with a 21 point captain on an Amagi would have obliterated me immediately after that and I’d never have got that far. At least the bot (:Borckenhagen:) made it interesting before it blapped me, and I had a chance to put two more fish into it and still not sink it. 

* Inexplicable nerfs of popular features such as IFHE and secondaries on German BBs and Massachusetts, and adding griefer-enhancing features like Deadeye and the torpedo protection skill that makes weak torpedoes, prevalent on a lot of ships that are built around torpedoes, even more weak. 

* The commander skill rework, which leaves only the most dedicated whales and full time players with lots of resources with 21 point captains, the rest of us filthy casuals can’t compete with that, and high tier random matches seem to be dominated by those players. Also, the meta in Randoms is hiding and sniping and that is boring to do for full length matches. 

* The prevalence of CVs, which a lot of ships can’t counter at all. AA on many T5+ ships is virtually nonexistent (most DDs, especially Japanese premiums, and Viribus Unitis are good examples). In co-op you never see more than one, and often, none. It’s not fun for a DD or small cruiser with no AA to speak of to get hassled to the death of a thousand cuts by aircraft it can’t defend against. Rocket planes from a T8 Lexington will rip away half the health of a T7 Shiratsuyu or Akatsuki in one shot, and the DDs can’t effectively fight back. And Akatsuki has some of the best AA on a Japanese mid tier DD. 

* The impending release of submarines, speaking of things you can’t counter. WG’s design team doesn’t seem to realize that people just don’t like to be experience piñatas for others, especially others they can’t even shoot back at. It isn’t fun. The truth is that in our own head canon, each one of us wants to be an invincible hero. That’s why games and movies featuring one great hero cleaning up Gotham or a small town in 1870s New Mexico are so popular. Everyone wants to be Clint Eastwood in the “Dollars” trilogy or for us gals, Sharon Stone in “The Quick and the Dead.” Games that facilitate that are popular. The reality is that most of us actually are the ones on the *other side* of that snake-handled Peacemaker. And we don’t like to be reminded of that every single time we hit the “commit” button to start a match. 

* The completely inane decision to remove popular Operation scenarios and not ever rework or replace them. PvE is always going to be popular, and WG could monetize that even more effectively than they can randomize the PvP modes, it’s just more work for them because of the AI necessary to do it. PvP is easy, because then you have no need for AI. But in reality, a lot of us...a lot of us who spend money too...just won’t ever be powerful enough to be competitive in Randoms or Ranked or whatever other gladiator mode is the flavor of the month at WG no matter how high the rewards are for sticking your toe in the water. The only ships I will take into a random match are big, T8 battleships and I own two, Ignis Purgatio and Massachusetts. WG wiped out Massachusetts formerly dominating secondaries and left it in a place where it can shoot 200 rounds of 5” and land 20 hits even with manual secondaries activated. IP is a good boat but it was power crept AA-wise from jump and suffers from a battlecruiser armor scheme that makes it meat for T10 heavyweights like Yamato and T9 bruisers like Georgia that can outrange it and have better guns and better armor. Yeah, I’m a co-op main. But nearly all of the 30 ships I own are premiums. Granted, a lot of coal ships and lucky container drops are in that mix. I don’t whale, but I do spend from time to time. WG isn’t interested in keeping my attention. I’ve been in the game since 2015, I think, and I have zero 21 point captains. Not one. My top three are 18, 16, and 13. I’ve mastered no tech tree lines; I’ve made one as far as T9, and two others to T7. Three quarters of the matches I’ve played are in T5-T7, and 90% are in co-op and operations. 

WG won’t put resources into co-op modes. They’re too busy putting out OP dockyard ships and promoting B-movie tie-ins that need real money to experience the content, but are focused on the same old same old under the flashy skin. The ships they’re promoting in the Kong v. Godzilla promo aren’t even ships I own, or ever have owned. Unless you have ground them out, you’re effectively locked out of the content. That’s a lot of work for content most players will only see in the hands of a few CCs in YouTube videos. 

+1 for your observations, unfortunately WG are not stupid and are aware of this, they just don't care.

They've probably introduced so many gimmicks and differences in the continuous churn of ships they release, that to try and make the number of radar on each side be equal would probably cause a meltdown in the system. :Smile_teethhappy:

It is solely a money game now, where they are more interested in releasing items for purchase rather then for the community benefit - hell maybe if the community raised funds to contribute, we might see a new map.

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During the April Fools 'Jacuzzi Battles', WG released the smart-bots into co-op.

They were also in the co-op side of the Jacuzzi Battles.

Not only a challenge, but almost an impossibility since the bots already had many advantages.
It forced everyone into Random.  Wait time for Co-op skyrocketed (since there were no bots on the human side at that time).

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