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OuijaApologist

Who's excited for Z-31? A DD with the DPM of tier 1!

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many don't like flamu but the video he did about it rings so true lol the thing is absolute GARBAGE!!!

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the fact WG allowed it to hit the live server in this condition really should tell you something

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How come no one is talking about the fact that Z-23 got her "historical" 150mm guns (which she carried into battle IRL) removed and replaced with 128mm guns (which were never mounted on Z-23 IRL), but because of "balans", ships like Colorado have to keep their 21 knot speed, because it's "historical"? Basically, WG plays the "historical" card occasionally and randomly. Since we are throwing logic out the window, can we expect NCC-1701 in-game with phasers and photon torpedoes next?

All ships are historical, but some ships are more historical than others, comrade.

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3 minutes ago, HamAndCheez said:

How come no one is talking about the fact that Z-23 got her "historical" 150mm guns (which she carried into battle IRL) removed and replaced with 128mm guns (which were never mounted on Z-23 IRL), but because of "balans", ships like Colorado have to keep their 21 knot speed, because it's "historical"? Basically, WG plays the "historical" card occasionally and randomly. Since we are throwing logic out the window, can we expect NCC-1701 in-game with phasers and photon torpedoes next?

All ships are historical, but some ships are more historical than others, comrade.

WG plays the historical card only when it suits them

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The entire line is garbage, this one is just excessively garbage.

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Yeah, I was lucky enough to pull the t9 as my first bundle and man is the ship so far and away the worst DD it isn't funny. Worse handling than the Harugumo and most T9 cruisers, same tragic HE DPM, huge 6.5km minimum concealment, sea mine torps that generally don't hit since their concealnent isn't Pan Asian and the only gimmick of sniper AP starting with T6 IJN reload that still overpens / shatters on everything.

The line needs actual light cruiser HP and/or a heal with the stats it has now and even then they'd be weaksauce.

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48 minutes ago, OuijaApologist said:

image.png.bc43e4214844ec722dd374634f47a323.png

I am excited to get a free ship, no matter how bad it is

 

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Normally I take most of what Flamu says with a grain of salt because he tends to sensationalize to get views.  However when the math bears out what he is saying its hard to argue.  The German DDs just seem BAD.

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33 minutes ago, HamAndCheez said:

Since we are throwing logic out the window, can we expect NCC-1701 in-game with phasers and photon torpedoes next?

Absolutely...as everybody knows it was fine planet Earth Russian technology (just check out the accuracy on those phasers if you have any doubtskis) that built it...

But for balanz sake the teleporter room will be removed so the crew will need to get off their lazy arses & move from 1 end of glorious ship to the other end of glorious ship...or at least need to use the new consumable (w/a perfectly balanzed timer) to access the teleporters.

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Have not got one yet. The Z -39 is a very good ship. But has very good torpedoes,  that are fast. Not to mention good concealment and high HP. But I don't see any magic in this line ships. 

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Secret recording of the pitch meeting:

"Hey, I have an idea for a new destroyer."

"Hit me."

"Let's clone Z-39, but- hear me out- make it worse in every single way."

"Oh, you want to make a Tier 6 version of Z-39?"

"No, we'll put it at the same tier, but as a tech tree ship."

"Makes sense, I guess- the free version is a little weaker..."

"No, you're not getting it. We're gonna gut this sucker. Like, give it Tier 1 DPM and stuff, worse agility, worse torps, everything."

"So... the new line will have powerful guns, but give up DPM to keep hydro and-"

"Nah, we're gonna take that away too!"

"Oh. Um... okay..."

"So should we do it, or what?"

"Sure... whatever. As long as you make sure the pre-release event is even stingier than the last one."

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Wow.  Not even trying to hide their intentions with this one.  It's so bad, WG wants you to freeXP past it.

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31 minutes ago, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

Sure... whatever. As long as you make sure the pre-release event is even stingier than the last one."

This made me laugh. :cap_haloween:

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1 hour ago, tcbaker777 said:

WG plays the historical card only when it suits them

And of course they play up the historical aspect in the marketing of the game.

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I'm really STOKED for Z-31! Can't wait to get it for my port

 

...where she will remain in a nice cozy spot :Smile_Default: 

 

 

 (actually I'm mostly interested in the fancy Iron Cross camouflage)

Edited by Hammer_n_Sickle
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1 hour ago, HamAndCheez said:

can we expect NCC-1701 in-game with phasers and photon torpedoes next?

Next? What about the Gatlantic ships from last patch?

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well im not one to bag ships usually as I enjoy making difficult ships work ( Mysore as an example), however I can say the Z31 is not only the worst DD in the game but the worst overall ship.

I took it for a test run in coop first to try out the AP but bounced every shot ( of the slow loading guns ) off a Benham, so switch to HE.

Ok so next took into randoms, fired two rounds of HE to then be lectured by a player I should be using AP. OK I switched , shattered a salvo against broadside leander , even bounced a round of a broadside Fubaki.

 

I have played a number of matches now and can say

Slow reload, terrible guns, terrible torpedoes, slow for a DD, no german hydro.

Did they even test this piece of Junk before releasing as early access or are we in fact testing it now on the live server as guinea pigs?

In its current state once fully available , ill be selling it unless some serious buffs are made.

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2 hours ago, HamAndCheez said:

How come no one is talking about the fact that Z-23 got her "historical" 150mm guns (which she carried into battle IRL) removed and replaced with 128mm guns (which were never mounted on Z-23 IRL), but because of "balans", ships like Colorado have to keep their 21 knot speed, because it's "historical"? Basically, WG plays the "historical" card occasionally and randomly. Since we are throwing logic out the window, can we expect NCC-1701 in-game with phasers and photon torpedoes next?

All ships are historical, but some ships are more historical than others, comrade.

Because WG, logic, and history go together like oil and water

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1 hour ago, Ann_Darrow said:

Wow.  Not even trying to hide their intentions with this one.  It's so bad, WG wants you to freeXP past it.

To get where?

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I've been playing the Z-31 a bit over the last few days, and have really been enjoying her, and found her quite capable.  She's probably just a touch weak overall, and definitely the weakest in the new line, but I think all she could use is a tad more AP pen to get her more in line with the tier 9 and 10 in terms of characteristics.  She is nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

2 hours ago, Blitzkrieger said:

many don't like flamu but the video he did about it rings so true lol the thing is absolute GARBAGE!!!

Flamu played the ship completely wrong. He used HE constantly where he should have been using AP, he kept trying to get close to enemy DD's, he wasn't shooting when he should have been, and he basically tried to play the ship like a normal DD then complained constantly that it was terrible.

Well of course a ship is terrible if you play to its weaknesses instead of its strengths.  You can only assume he was being deliberately obtuse, because he's too good a player to be this ignorant.

If anyone is unsure of how to play the new KM DD line, here are a few tips.  These ships are not normal DD's.  They are unique to the game, I would think of them more as a scout cruiser than a DD.  They are second line ships, like the Russian and French DD's, except instead of being a mid range machine gun like the Russian DD's, they are more like mid range semi auto snipers.

WG have said that these ships are a counter to CL's - they are right, these are the ship types that the new KM DD's are strongest against.  They are not ambush ships however - ambush play involves using islands or such like to surprise a ship at close range and blast them out of the water quickly, in the same way that a Marceau would ambush a DD.  If you decide to do that to a CL in your new KM DD, you're going to die rapidly.  You will be completely out-dpmed.

So let's have a theoretical fight between a comparable and very strong tier 7 CL - München.  In your Z-31 when fighting against München you actually have all the advantages, with the exception of dpm!

Z-31 is more maneuverable, smaller, and doesn't have a citadel. It's guns have more AP pen than the CL, and the shells get to their target faster. With the improved ricochet angles you will be able to consistently overpen and full pen München. The dispersion ellipse is a quarter of the size of München's, so Z-31 will be able to land a very high shot percentage if aimed well. The idea is you stay at range and completely out trade the CL.

In this match up too, Z-31 will be able to citadel München from about 53° at 13km, which means you don't have to show much side to start eating citadels (35mm citadel armour angled at 45°, minus the 15° impact angle from the fall of shot, makes for a 41mm effective armour, plus 16mm from the external plating, equals 57mm total effective citadel armour, Z-31 has 96mm of AP pen at 13km, which makes for a 53° angle at which you can pen the citadel).

München will not win this fight with two equally competently played ships.

This doesn't mean you can only be effective against CL's though.  Compare Z-31 in a fight against Hipper.  Now the Hipper is a bit different - the new KM DD's are supposed to counter CL's, and Hipper is a CA, plus it's a tier higher than Z-31. The difference is the shell flight times (Hipper has faster flight times than Z-31), as well as citadel armour - Z-31 won't be getting citadels on Hipper. Having said that, Z-31 still retains all of its other advantages - smaller size, hyper accurate guns, better maneuverability, the ability to consistently pen the Hipper even when angled. I would back the Z-31 to out trade Hipper so long as it maintains the correct range, if equally competently played.

Basically cruisers do not out gun these new KM DD's at range. As an example, Elbing's 150mm guns are almost identical in AP pen and shell flight times to Donskoi's amazing Russian 180mm guns. Except Elbing gets improved ricochet angles and a dispersion ellipse area a quarter the size of Donskoi. These things are phenomenal! There is no other 150-155mm calibre gun in the game that comes even remotely close to Elbing's guns. The new line also has much better guns than the old KM DD 150's.

Now the biggest weakness of the new line are close range fights.  Your worst case scenario is running into a high dpm ship at close range.  You are going to die fast.  If you find yourself playing in such a way that you often run into DD gunboats at detection range, you are doing it wrong!  For evidence see Flamu's play style in his recent video on the Z-31 for a case study in what not to do.  The only mitigation you have if you run into a DD gunboat is your 25mm midship armour, which DD calibre HE will not pen.  This is only slowing the inevitable if you run into a DD at detection range though - you'll be outgunned by everything.

So what you want to do is maintain a bit of range, and always be ready to run.  You want to be engaging cruisers and battleships (these things are very strong against BB's at range, at any angle).  You want to be shooting at DD's when they are spotted with whatever you have loaded - HE is better against DD's though if you have an extended fight against them, unless that DD is tier 8 and up with their 19mm hulls.  You should always be prepared to cap, but should never be fighting at close range for the cap - you cap only when there is no enemy DD threat.  You need to know the abilities of your guns - their pen stats, their angles, and what you can pen on what ships at what angles.  Your guns are hyper accurate - you can pick out the bits of an enemy ship you want to hit for maximum effect, and you can hit most of your shells at range on that part of the ship if you aim well.  As an example, normally a perfectly bow on BB would be incredibly hard to damage with 150mm guns at range.  With these ships, you can reliably hit the superstructure showing above the main battery for pens and overpens because your dispersion ellipse is so tiny.

You should be firing AP in almost all situations.  The only time you don't, is against DD's when you are firing at them for more than a single salvo.  I need to do more testing of AP vs HE on tier 8 and up DD's in pvp situations, because if you can get full pens reliably against their 19mm armour AP will be better, but that involves angles of 40-65°.

Just a final point for people saying that the dpm of these ships are trash tier.  I think in particular people don't understand that potential dpm does not equal actual damage done. These ships have low potential dpm, but because of their tiny dispersion ellipse they can land far more shells per salvo on the part of the ship they are shooting at. Because of their excellent AP pen (that gets pretty ludicrous by the time you reach the tier 10) they will pen and citadel more than other 150-155mm guns. Because of the improved ricochet angles they will bounce less than other ships. Because of the quick shell travel times they will hit their aim point more reliably.

This adds up to those dpm figures meaning precisely bugger all. What matters is knowledge of AP mechanics and the stats of your guns, and the ability to hit the correctly chosen aim point on the enemy ship.

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22 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

I've been playing the Z-31 a bit over the last few days, and have really been enjoying her, and found her quite capable.  She's probably just a touch weak overall, and definitely the weakest in the new line, but I think all she could use is a tad more AP pen to get her more in line with the tier 9 and 10 in terms of characteristics.  She is nowhere near as bad as people are making out.

Flamu played the ship completely wrong. He used HE constantly where he should have been using AP, he kept trying to get close to enemy DD's, he wasn't shooting when he should have been, and he basically tried to play the ship like a normal DD then complained constantly that it was terrible.

Well of course a ship is terrible if you play to its weaknesses instead of its strengths.  You can only assume he was being deliberately obtuse, because he's too good a player to be this ignorant.

If anyone is unsure of how to play the new KM DD line, here are a few tips.  These ships are not normal DD's.  They are unique to the game, I would think of them more as a scout cruiser than a DD.  They are second line ships, like the Russian and French DD's, except instead of being a mid range machine gun like the Russian DD's, they are more like mid range semi auto snipers.

WG have said that these ships are a counter to CL's - they are right, these are the ship types that the new KM DD's are strongest against.  They are not ambush ships however - ambush play involves using islands or such like to surprise a ship at close range and blast them out of the water quickly, in the same way that a Marceau would ambush a DD.  If you decide to do that to a CL in your new KM DD, you're going to die rapidly.  You will be completely out-dpmed.

So let's have a theoretical fight between a comparable and very strong tier 7 CL - München.  In your Z-31 when fighting against München you actually have all the advantages, with the exception of dpm!

Z-31 is more maneuverable, smaller, and doesn't have a citadel. It's guns have more AP pen than the CL, and the shells get to their target faster. With the improved ricochet angles you will be able to consistently overpen and full pen München. The dispersion ellipse is a quarter of the size of München's, so Z-31 will be able to land a very high shot percentage if aimed well. The idea is you stay at range and completely out trade the CL.

In this match up too, Z-31 will be able to citadel München from about 53° at 13km, which means you don't have to show much side to start eating citadels (35mm citadel armour angled at 45°, minus the 15° impact angle from the fall of shot, makes for a 41mm effective armour, plus 16mm from the external plating, equals 57mm total effective citadel armour, Z-31 has 96mm of AP pen at 13km, which makes for a 53° angle at which you can pen the citadel).

München will not win this fight with two equally competently played ships.

This doesn't mean you can only be effective against CL's though.  Compare Z-31 in a fight against Hipper.  Now the Hipper is a bit different - the new KM DD's are supposed to counter CL's, and Hipper is a CA, plus it's a tier higher than Z-31. The difference is the shell flight times (Hipper has faster flight times than Z-31), as well as citadel armour - Z-31 won't be getting citadels on Hipper. Having said that, Z-31 still retains all of its other advantages - smaller size, hyper accurate guns, better maneuverability, the ability to consistently pen the Hipper even when angled. I would back the Z-31 to out trade Hipper so long as it maintains the correct range, if equally competently played.

Basically cruisers do not out gun these new KM DD's at range. As an example, Elbing's 150mm guns are almost identical in AP pen and shell flight times to Donskoi's amazing Russian 180mm guns. Except Elbing gets improved ricochet angles and a dispersion ellipse area a quarter the size of Donskoi. These things are phenomenal! There is no other 150-155mm calibre gun in the game that comes even remotely close to Elbing's guns. The new line also has much better guns than the old KM DD 150's.

Now the biggest weakness of the new line are close range fights.  Your worst case scenario is running into a high dpm ship at close range.  You are going to die fast.  If you find yourself playing in such a way that you often run into DD gunboats at detection range, you are doing it wrong!  For evidence see Flamu's play style in his recent video on the Z-31 for a case study in what not to do.  The only mitigation you have if you run into a DD gunboat is your 25mm midship armour, which DD calibre HE will not pen.  This is only slowing the inevitable if you run into a DD at detection range though - you'll be outgunned by everything.

So what you want to do is maintain a bit of range, and always be ready to run.  You want to be engaging cruisers and battleships (these things are very strong against BB's at range, at any angle).  You want to be shooting at DD's when they are spotted with whatever you have loaded - HE is better against DD's though if you have an extended fight against them, unless that DD is tier 8 and up with their 19mm hulls.  You should always be prepared to cap, but should never be fighting at close range for the cap - you cap only when there is no enemy DD threat.  You need to know the abilities of your guns - their pen stats, their angles, and what you can pen on what ships at what angles.  Your guns are hyper accurate - you can pick out the bits of an enemy ship you want to hit for maximum effect, and you can hit most of your shells at range on that part of the ship if you aim well.  As an example, normally a perfectly bow on BB would be incredibly hard to damage with 150mm guns at range.  With these ships, you can reliably hit the superstructure showing above the main battery for pens and overpens because your dispersion ellipse is so tiny.

You should be firing AP in almost all situations.  The only time you don't, is against DD's when you are firing at them for more than a single salvo.  I need to do more testing of AP vs HE on tier 8 and up DD's in pvp situations, because if you can get full pens reliably against their 19mm armour AP will be better, but that involves angles of 40-65°.

Just a final point for people saying that the dpm of these ships are trash tier.  I think in particular people don't understand that potential dpm does not equal actual damage done. These ships have low potential dpm, but because of their tiny dispersion ellipse they can land far more shells per salvo on the part of the ship they are shooting at. Because of their excellent AP pen (that gets pretty ludicrous by the time you reach the tier 10) they will pen and citadel more than other 150-155mm guns. Because of the improved ricochet angles they will bounce less than other ships. Because of the quick shell travel times they will hit their aim point more reliably.

This adds up to those dpm figures meaning precisely bugger all. What matters is knowledge of AP mechanics and the stats of your guns, and the ability to hit the correctly chosen aim point on the enemy ship.

.....  or, you could give us a replay of how to use it correctly. 

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