Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Soshi_Sone

RPF Triangulation

41 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

4,957
[CNO]
Members
6,746 posts
20,211 battles

Had a discussion with a fellow captain about using RPF detection to triangulate.   Issue came up when a teammate announced RPF detect.  Someone complained in chat that the annoucement was worthless.  Someone else and myself said you could use that info to triangulate.  Someone was adamant that you couldn't triangulate.  I didn't have time to explain in chat with the naysayer...so I'll explain it here for those who don't know the trick.

First player announces RPF detect.  Note who announced it.  Then continue with your actions.  Sooner or later that person's RPF will drop and someone else will pick it up.  If that someone is you, mentally draw a line (on the minimap) between you and the person who just lost it. This line is the base of an Isosceles triangle.   Mentally complete the Isosceles triangle on the minimap.   In general, this will be a line extending at right angles to the base and toward the enemy.  In essence, the line of solutions to the isosceles triangle.   That is, the line is the solution of points where the two lines of the triangle meet.  Taking into account terrain, detection rings, and the base of the triangle, you can often narrow the line down to a square or two.  The enemy ship using RPF is in those squares.  Click 'em  on the minimap for team SA. 

 

Edited by Soshi_Sone
  • Cool 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,780
[CLUMP]
Members
2,051 posts
2,424 battles

Me trying to understand @Soshi_Sone theory :Smile_amazed:

ur7dOyV.gif

But seriously this is very interesting however this would require serious teamwork which is none existent most of the time :Smile_hiding: 

 

Edited by LastRemnant
  • Funny 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
486
[GOCRY]
Members
1,004 posts

You don’t need another player to announce that they’re located to use this trick as long as you have RPF. You just pick the ship that is most likely the closest ship when your located icon appears or disappears.

Edited by SeaGladius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,148
[A-I-M]
Members
4,084 posts
15,213 battles
11 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

First player announces RPF detect.  Note who announced it.  Then continue with your actions.  Sooner or later that person's RPF will drop and someone else will pick it up.  If that someone is you, mentally draw a line (on the minimap) between you and the person who just lost it. This line is the base of an Isosceles triangle.   Mentally complete the Isosceles triangle on the minimap.   In general, this will be a line extending at right angles to the base and toward the enemy.  In essence, the line of solutions to the isosceles triangle.   That is, the line is the solution of points where the two lines of the triangle meet.  Taking into account terrain, detection rings, and the base of the triangle, you can often narrow the line down to a square or two.  The enemy ship using RPF is in those squares.  Click 'em  on the minimap for team SA. 

 

It is fundamentally flawed to presume that an enemy ship is along the perpendicular bisector of a line between yourself and another ship with RPF.

Further, your describe one teammate as essentially “losing the fix” on the enemy, and that someone else on the team will pick it up when that happens.

RPF can be triangulated, but not in the manner you describe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,179
[WOLF5]
Supertester
5,233 posts
4,348 battles

While theoretically you can do it that way, that requires pretty good communication. It's incredibly useful if you are the one located. Take a look at where your teammates are, that usually gives you a good idea where the enemy locating you has to be. Take into account last known positions, terrain, and other factors (caps flipping, smoke) and you get an even more precise location. Combined with the detection icon you can often get a very good idea of where the enemy is. RPF is useful for the person running it, but it has a downside that someone who knows what they're doing can get almost as much information about you from the located icon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
486
[GOCRY]
Members
1,004 posts
14 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

It is fundamentally flawed to presume that an enemy ship is along the perpendicular bisector of a line between yourself and another ship with RPF.

Further, your describe one teammate as essentially “losing the fix” on the enemy, and that someone else on the team will pick it up when that happens.

RPF can be triangulated, but not in the manner you describe.

He’s not assuming that either you or the other ship has RPF.  The enemy is at the bisector at the moment that the located icon shifts between ships.  Obviously, as time passes, the enemy can move farther and farther from the bisector.  You’re correct, that technically you haven’t triangulated the enemies location using his method - unless you have RPF too.  Then the intersection of the bisector and your direction indicator is the solution.

Whenever you are located, whether you have RPF or not, you can use bisectors to eliminate areas that the enemy cannot be, because then another ship would be closer to them.

Edited by SeaGladius

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,180
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,521 posts
41 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Had a discussion with a fellow captain about using RPF detection to triangulate.  

 

The problem is that multiple ships on the enemy team could have RPF. That's not saying that it's not good to announce when you are located. If I know the enemy has RPF I'm going to change my DD strategy significantly, especially if they also have a CV.  It's hard to flank unnoticed in a DD if the enemy has a vector on you and the team should be aware of this. That is, if they speak English, are looking at Chat, actually know something about the game's mechanics, and are not the type that couldn't care less about team communication and coordination. Your idea might work for a three-person division with voice chat though.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,824
[PVE]
Members
8,822 posts
25,144 battles
17 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

It is fundamentally flawed to presume that an enemy ship is along the perpendicular bisector of a line between yourself and another ship with RPF.

Further, your describe one teammate as essentially “losing the fix” on the enemy, and that someone else on the team will pick it up when that happens.

RPF can be triangulated, but not in the manner you describe.

RPF will always change to the next closest target if the 1 that was closest gets further away & can be used against you to triangulate approximate location...by the red team if the data is shared...or at least by the 2 ships that were located if they can guess correctly who the last person located was...but the ship using it may be all the way at their spawn still so inless there's team communication the exact location may be hard to triangulate when just trying to guess who was located last)...if the person being located knows how to do what Soshi explained...especially at the start of a match while everybody is heading forward from spawn.

That's why I let the team know at the start if I am located (not for the purposes of triangulating myself...I don't care.. but so somebody else can use the data if they get located after me).

I use this announcement though:

I'm located...I feel special

...to let other players know how much of a waste of 4 points the skill is IMO. It has it's uses later in the game...if there's no CV spotting everybody...but at the start it's definitely a waste...

There's a DD heading to contest the cap...thanx captain obvious skill user.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7,979
[WORX]
Members
14,151 posts
20,608 battles

I dont care what math theory Soshi is using in game to find the reds... MY only concern was its never a dumb, stupid nor worthless to project or announce to your teammates, that bit of information.

Though its not useful to him... IMO its valuable for me...

Some marry Shamu because they see value in doing so...

Withholding information is a crime against team play...

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,148
[A-I-M]
Members
4,084 posts
15,213 battles
1 hour ago, SeaGladius said:

He’s not assuming that either you or the other ship has RPF. 

You’re right. I’m a bit slow on the uptake tonight. Ive been working night shift, 12-hour shifts, Im coming off it tonight, and Im not too sharp. I saw “announce RPF detect” and he was talking about using it on their own ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
380
[-ARM-]
Beta Testers
1,018 posts
12,232 battles

Here's an illustration that I whipped up in MS paint, as far as I can make sense of Soshi's theory. It should also note that this method is only good for the moment the RPF switches between the ally and you.

Soshi theory illustration.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,180
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,521 posts
18 minutes ago, sulghunter331 said:

Here's an illustration that I whipped up in MS paint, as far as I can make sense of Soshi's theory. It should also note that this method is only good for the moment the RPF switches between the ally and you.

Soshi theory illustration.png

I suppose that you wouldn't even need to communicate with your nearest teammate if you assumed that when you went un-located that they we them located and just plotted a line perpendicular to one between you and them. Of course, the way to check this out would be to have RPF yourself. If your RPF pointed in the same direction as your calculated line then you would know the method works. The very best way to test this would be to get several people to coordinate a test in the Training Room.

Edited by Snargfargle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
610
[WOLFH]
Members
1,290 posts
43 minutes ago, Snargfargle said:

I suppose that you wouldn't even need to communicate with your nearest teammate if you assumed that when you went un-located that they we them located and just plotted a line perpendicular to one between you and them. Of course, the way to check this out would be to have RPF yourself. If your RPF pointed in the same direction as your calculated line then you would know the method works. The very best way to test this would be to get several people to coordinate a test in the Training Room.

Several people are not needed to coordinate a test of RDF triangulation any more than several people are needed to test whether 2+2=4.

RDF triangulation only directly shows a line on which an enemy is located.  Other factors like detection distances (just use the smallest one for enemy ships) can refine triangulation to a very good locator.  The drawing below has red circles that show the detection range of the enemy's least detectable ship.  The enemy can only be along the RDF percendicular outside the red detection circles.

1353714629_RDFwithdetection.jpg.7b0fff16c834eb8df4d3c927f631ddb2.jpg

And you often don't need to communicate with anyone if you are on a flank with only an ally or two.  It is often obvious which ally was "located" when you ceased to be.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,180
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,521 posts

I can think of several reasons why this "triangulation" method wouldn't work. The first, which I've already mentioned, would be when the enemy has more one ship equipped with RPF. Another would be the case where your ally moved up to where it was now closer to the RPF ship than you.

The enemy RPF ship is in red, you are green with a black circle. Its RPF vector on you is the red line. However, then your ally moves up to where it is now the closest to the RPF ship. The enemy ship's RPF now shows the green line as being the vector to the nearest of your team's ships. However, if you "triangulate," as mentioned, your vector to the enemy RPF ship is way off.

image.thumb.png.189991c4654c5830c6ad6b614ab2e61c.png

Edited by Snargfargle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,107
[WPORT]
Members
11,000 posts
15,489 battles
1 hour ago, Snargfargle said:

I can think of several reasons why this "triangulation" method wouldn't work. The first, which I've already mentioned, would be when the enemy has more one ship equipped with RPF. Another would be the case where your ally moved up to where it was now closer to the RPF ship than you.

The enemy RPF ship is in red, you are green with a black circle. Its RPF vector on you is the red line. However, then your ally moves up to where it is now the closest to the RPF ship. The enemy ship's RPF now shows the green line as being the vector to the nearest of your team's ships. However, if you "triangulate," as mentioned, your vector to the enemy RPF ship is way off.

image.thumb.png.189991c4654c5830c6ad6b614ab2e61c.png

Assuming for the sake of discussion, that players were communicating and tracking the information, then drawing an "average" between the first "located" map plot and the second "located" map plot (where the allied ship moved-up and become the "located" ship) might lead to the approximate vector of the opposing ship equipped with Radio Direction Finding.
image_2021-04-17_061932.thumb.png.0ad7bac87003a830aaee14e56bd54a8f.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,107
[WPORT]
Members
11,000 posts
15,489 battles

I'd like to take a moment to thank everyone for starting and contributing to this discussion.

I feel the concept is useful and beneficial.

Sure, there are factors which may affect the equation and the result derived from the math.  And yes, it is a "snapshot" of the situational awareness which can change as the ships move on the map and a battle progresses.

Bottom line, it is a good idea to communicate and share this "intelligence data" with one's allies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,107
[WPORT]
Members
11,000 posts
15,489 battles
6 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Had a discussion with a fellow captain about using RPF detection to triangulate.   Issue came up when a teammate announced RPF detect.  Someone complained in chat that the annoucement was worthless.  Someone else and myself said you could use that info to triangulate.  Someone was adamant that you couldn't triangulate.  I didn't have time to explain in chat with the naysayer...so I'll explain it here for those who don't know the trick.

First player announces RPF detect.  Note who announced it.  Then continue with your actions.  Sooner or later that person's RPF will drop and someone else will pick it up.  If that someone is you, mentally draw a line (on the minimap) between you and the person who just lost it. This line is the base of an Isosceles triangle.   Mentally complete the Isosceles triangle on the minimap.   In general, this will be a line extending at right angles to the base and toward the enemy.  In essence, the line of solutions to the isosceles triangle.   That is, the line is the solution of points where the two lines of the triangle meet.  Taking into account terrain, detection rings, and the base of the triangle, you can often narrow the line down to a square or two.  The enemy ship using RPF is in those squares.  Click 'em  on the minimap for team SA. 

 

 

3 hours ago, sulghunter331 said:

Here's an illustration that I whipped up in MS paint, as far as I can make sense of Soshi's theory. It should also note that this method is only good for the moment the RPF switches between the ally and you.

Soshi theory illustration.png

 

2 hours ago, C14Alpha said:

Several people are not needed to coordinate a test of RDF triangulation any more than several people are needed to test whether 2+2=4.

RDF triangulation only directly shows a line on which an enemy is located.  Other factors like detection distances (just use the smallest one for enemy ships) can refine triangulation to a very good locator.  The drawing below has red circles that show the detection range of the enemy's least detectable ship.  The enemy can only be along the RDF percendicular outside the red detection circles.

1353714629_RDFwithdetection.jpg.7b0fff16c834eb8df4d3c927f631ddb2.jpg

And you often don't need to communicate with anyone if you are on a flank with only an ally or two.  It is often obvious which ally was "located" when you ceased to be.

I think that the above paragraphs & illustrations help teach the concept wonderfully.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,403
[-BCO-]
Members
2,940 posts
5,063 battles
7 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Had a discussion with a fellow captain about using RPF detection to triangulate.   Issue came up when a teammate announced RPF detect.  Someone complained in chat that the annoucement was worthless.  Someone else and myself said you could use that info to triangulate.  Someone was adamant that you couldn't triangulate.  I didn't have time to explain in chat with the naysayer...so I'll explain it here for those who don't know the trick.

Well....I tend to announce "RPF located" because for others on my team ( specifically DD's) could be a  useful information. i use it myself a lot, so...

7 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

First player announces RPF detect.  Note who announced it.  Then continue with your actions.  Sooner or later that person's RPF will drop and someone else will pick it up.  If that someone is you, mentally draw a line (on the minimap) between you and the person who just lost it. This line is the base of an Isosceles triangle.   Mentally complete the Isosceles triangle on the minimap.   In general, this will be a line extending at right angles to the base and toward the enemy.  In essence, the line of solutions to the isosceles triangle.   That is, the line is the solution of points where the two lines of the triangle meet.  Taking into account terrain, detection rings, and the base of the triangle, you can often narrow the line down to a square or two.  The enemy ship using RPF is in those squares.  Click 'em  on the minimap for team SA.  becasu

Hmm.....triangulating... It could be done but is kinda  situational. Remember the red ships are also moving. Nevertheless, if LOS detection is paired with it, could give a strong indicator especially if is on an "islanded" map.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,180
[PSP]
[PSP]
Members
15,521 posts
3 hours ago, Wolfswetpaws said:

Assuming for the sake of discussion, that players were communicating and tracking the information, then drawing an "average" between the first "located" map plot and the second "located" map plot (where the allied ship moved-up and become the "located" ship) might lead to the approximate vector of the opposing ship equipped with Radio Direction Finding.
image_2021-04-17_061932.thumb.png.0ad7bac87003a830aaee14e56bd54a8f.png

I think that the pointing to the RPF ship from a line perpendicular to where the second-located allied ship once was is only a coincidence due to how I drew my diagram. The second-located allied ship could have been anywhere behind the first-located allied ship before it finally sailed to a position where it was detected. I think that this method could work, but only under specific circumstances. That's why it would be interesting to have at least three people set up a Training Room scenario to test this.

image.thumb.png.370e7d98ee014a7c19405c797d39ae95.png

 

Edited by Snargfargle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,292
[BWC]
Beta Testers
2,212 posts
8,470 battles

This method can help get an approximate location, but the thing to remember is that the enemy with the RPF is also getting more valuable information in return.  They are learning the reverse bearing on -two- ships, and knows that one has closed the distance more than the other.  From this, they can readily infer the location of both ships, since they have a much more accurate bearing on each, as they have been tracking each and noted their bearing changes.

 

The bottom line, as always, is that RPF is really only useful for players who know how to use it.  Those who don't will always consider it a waste of 4 points of commander's skills, and for those players it is.  The adroit commander will use the information it gives, along with the knowledge that the enemy is seeing that they are being tracked, to their advantage, and that advantage can be devastating.

 

Communication is a powerful tool as well.  Those who don't want to be bothered knowing when ships are being pinged by RPF, again, don't have the talent to use that information.  And, unless you have two players who know how to coordinate, knowing that information is really only something a player can use in their own decisions.  Others will continue playing their game, and you can't do more than give them the info.  It's on them how they use it.

 

For myself, I always factor in that the enemy is aware I am tracking them, and I expect them to seek me out.  I always have my weapons ready for the confrontation, and let the better team win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,068
[SHOOT]
[SHOOT]
Beta Testers
4,347 posts
13,086 battles
11 hours ago, LastRemnant said:

Me trying to understand @Soshi_Sone theory :Smile_amazed:

ur7dOyV.gif

But seriously this very interesting however this would require seriously teamwork which no existent most of the time :Smile_hiding: 

 

Not really. It only requires two ships with RPF and a little bit of chat text.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
676
[NSEW]
Members
2,554 posts
12,098 battles

All excellent illustrations and descriptors.  

What would I do?  Play/Ask a CV to find the culprit, let the DD spot,  or use my ship detection + Radar + RPF = Gotcha Sucka.   

 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,620
[SALVO]
Members
3,664 posts
7,531 battles

Loving picture time !!!  one of the best convos in a long time. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
486
[GOCRY]
Members
1,004 posts
9 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

You’re right. I’m a bit slow on the uptake tonight. Ive been working night shift, 12-hour shifts, Im coming off it tonight, and Im not too sharp. I saw “announce RPF detect” and he was talking about using it on their own ship.

No worries!  I actually realized I misunderstood part of his post after reading your response and had to edit my own post.  Geometry is hard without pictures.

(I’m also a shift worker, coming off 12 hour night shifts, so I know exactly how you were feeling, BTW)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×