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Zaydin

Uncap Italian BB SAP damage against DDs, WG

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Yes, this again. Almost uniquely among BBs, Italian BBs are highly vulnerable to destroyers as both their ammo types are capped to 10% of their max damage against destroyers and their secondaries are even more useless than normal since the 90mm guns that make up the bulk of their secondaries only have 15mm of penetration while most DDs have at least 16mm hulls.

Either uncap their SAP Shells to give DDs something to be afraid of or drastically boost the accuracy and penetration of their secondaries.

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I've tried the IL BBs (T4-6) while Early Access and had no trouble with DDs because it's a simple matter of ripple fire, not full broadside.

Can't say the mid and high-tier ones really bothered me at my preferred tiers though. They do hit, just not enough to be a threat.

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What?  SAP 10% of DD hps.  24k dd  (Tier 9 Russian Neushimy (sp))  2400 hps, per shell?

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2 minutes ago, Nachoo31 said:

What?  SAP 10% of DD hps.  24k dd  (Tier 9 Russian Neushimy (sp))  2400 hps, per shell?

You left out just how garbage Italian BBs accuracy and reload are.

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Honestly, if a DD gets slapped by a BB SAP shell it deserves to feel it. Right now SAP feels anemic to destroyers. 

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Just now, Dr_Venture said:

Honestly, if a DD gets slapped by a BB SAP shell it deserves to feel it. Right now SAP feels anemic to destroyers. 

I thought you love SAP on the Cruisers... 

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3 minutes ago, Nachoo31 said:

What?  SAP 10% of DD hps.  24k dd  (Tier 9 Russian Neushimy (sp))  2400 hps, per shell?

no 10% of the shell damage...     so in FC for example its 12500/1250 damage for SAP and AP is 12000/1200 i think...

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1 minute ago, SKurj said:

no 10% of the shell damage...     so in FC for example its 12500/1250 damage for SAP and AP is 12000/1200 i think...

Thank you for clearing that up.

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33% is too high a number to be honest, especially considering C.Colombo having 16 rifles.

Something like 15-17% would be somewhat higher than your average HE value, with the caveat of being unable to set fires and damage modules. 

Alas, not to be.

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5 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

33% is too high a number to be honest, especially considering C.Colombo having 16 rifles.

Something like 15-17% would be somewhat higher than your average HE value, with the caveat of being unable to set fires and damage modules. 

Alas, not to be.

Can we stop balancing lines around the tier 10 and instead balance each ship based on the tier it's at?

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8 minutes ago, SKurj said:

no 10% of the shell damage...     so in FC for example its 12500/1250 damage for SAP and AP is 12000/1200 i think...

Just wondering, how much damage would a15" HE shell do? In addition to breaking more modules and possibly causing a fire.

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Just now, Zaydin said:

Can we stop balancing lines around the tier 10 and instead balance each ship based on the tier it's at?

I don't disagree one bit, but this seems to be the direction taken by WG since the soviet BBs. Makes grinding to tier X or spending money more attractive. 

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Just now, Sabot_100 said:

Just wondering, how much damage would a15" HE shell do? In addition to breaking more modules and possibly causing a fire.

i think it's not alot more but the taking out the engine and torps of an attacking dd is the biggest bonus to HE... and lets also consider the guns with the least chance of hitting a DD are the only one's firing SAP...

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Just now, SKurj said:

i think it's not alot more but the taking out the engine and torps of an attacking dd is the biggest bonus to HE... and lets also consider the guns with the least chance of hitting a DD are the only one's firing SAP...

You're also setting fires on the DD, worsening their concealment temporarily.

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thankfully at least FC has decent torp protection

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The weirdness is that the shells do less to a DD than those of Venezia, and are much closer in alpha to a Paolo Emilio's pen damage than the Cruisers' 203's.  
(seriously, its like 1100, 1250, and 1730)

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8 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Just wondering, how much damage would a15" HE shell do? In addition to breaking more modules and possibly causing a fire.

Usually an HE pen works out to about 20% more than an AP overpen. (varies by nation)

I wonder if part of the issue is that WG can't change damage% for individual ships.

DDs don't really have changed values, just a pen is replaced by an overpen.

Maybe the only thing they could do with the current 10% is put it back to 33% for a particular ship, which is too much.

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8 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

Maybe the only thing they could do with the current 10% is put it back to 33% for a particular ship, which is too much.

Hopefully they would incrementally increase it in steps until they get it right over a couple of updates. Maybe 15% would be enough. Past experience shows WG prefers the axe to the scalpel unfortunately.

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Barely any DDs in games want to push in or cap as it is, and we're looking to increase the damage they take? 

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31 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Hopefully they would incrementally increase it in steps until they get it right over a couple of updates. Maybe 15% would be enough. Past experience shows WG prefers the axe to the scalpel unfortunately.

That's what I'm saying though. Maybe there are only 3 possible states. (every penning shot has to be a pen, overpen, or citadel)

If that's the case, bumping RM BBs' DD overpens up to 15% would mean all BBs' DD overpens are 15%.

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16 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

That's what I'm saying though. Maybe there are only 3 possible states. (every penning shot has to be a pen, overpen, or citadel)

If that's the case, bumping RM BBs' DD overpens up to 15% would mean all BBs' DD overpens are 15%.

Cruiser SAP has a value much greater than overpen vs DDs so there must be a fourth option. Using that same formula BB SAP would devastate a DD so WG dialed it back. Just went a bit too far.

Then again that fourth SAP option may also be an either/or so it always uses the cruiser formula. Meaning WG had to choose the either SAP or overpen formula and went with the overpen.

At least that is what I assume.

Edited by Sabot_100

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1 hour ago, Zaydin said:

Can we stop balancing lines around the tier 10 and instead balance each ship based on the tier it's at?

Good point. T10 isn't the only tier here. WG can balance guns tier for tier; just like Small to medium caliber HE.

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16 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Cruiser SAP has a value much greater than overpen vs DDs...

That's right, they get full pens.

What I'm saying is that I don't believe that BB AP pens were adjusted from 33% to 10%, just turned into 10% overpens. Mechanic wise, that would mean that, just like no ship can achieve the 100% damage state against DDs, BBs cannot achieve the 100% or the 33%.

IOW, you have 3 options for damage, 10%, 33%, or 100%, and it's universally applied.

But yeah, it's entirely possible that they could add further damage "profiles" without much hassle. 

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1 hour ago, Nachoo31 said:

I thought you love SAP on the Cruisers... 

Cruiser and Battleship SAP behave very different against DDs.  The Battleship SAP have a hard cap to them against DDs, 10%.

 

Also, the Italian Cruisers got high velocity shells, flat arcs (at least Tier VII+), and can land multiple hits on a DD, so Cruiser SAP is very strong against them.

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2 hours ago, Nachoo31 said:

What?  SAP 10% of DD hps.  24k dd  (Tier 9 Russian Neushimy (sp))  2400 hps, per shell?

 

2 hours ago, SKurj said:

no 10% of the shell damage...     so in FC for example its 12500/1250 damage for SAP and AP is 12000/1200 i think...

 

1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

Just wondering, how much damage would a15" HE shell do? In addition to breaking more modules and possibly causing a fire.

Yamato is 7800, Montana is 5700, and GK iis 4800.

The nerf is justified but they really overdid it and 33% would have been more reasonable.

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