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lewellenfawr

Theory of Use - New German Destroyers

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In a PvE setting, I was thinking about how to use the new German Destroyers. If there really is no role then should I push to acquire them in early access? The description suggests that they will not do well-contesting caps with other destroyers early on in the game. If yne could infiltrate behind the first wave of red destroyers they may have a use against the following cruisers with their guns and then with torps against the battleships. It seems a bit overspecialized to me at this point.

I'm really asking if any of our PvE mains have thought about this?

Enjoy tomorrow... update day.

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It shouldn't be difficult to grind the new German DDs. So far I have done Z-52, Harugumo and Kleber all in Co-op.

 

 

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From the release article

Good armor for their type, which effectively protects against HE shells of most destroyers (unless they have mastered the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill)

I don't think that the bots have IFHE (although I have seen some with Last Stand) so they may be surprisingly useful against DD's if you are good at torp dodging without hydro.

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I mean, regardless of performance in PvP, just having torpedoes with reasonable alpha makes the ships workable in PvE

Considering the bots tend to often automatically angle whenever shot at with AP, maybe the improved angles will help at that. Finally the built in IFHE is guaranteed to allow you to get damage on every class you encounter. 

Bottom line, while I believe the new German DDs are much better in PvP, you shouldn't have trouble in PvE.

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from the description, large detectable cruiser with dd (150mm) guns and that how you would like to play it in Coop

:Smile_sceptic:

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It's a little tricky to imagine how effective these new DDs will be in co op because the bot behavior tends to always move towards the DDs bow on regardless if you are spotted or not.

 

So in theory, you may not even get much opportunities to get broadside shots into the cruisers that may likely be heading towards you bow on.

 

However when the bot cruisers do present broadsides, then it's farming time.

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Think Z39, or Z23 with 150mm guns, but has slower torps and better AP bounce angle... and no hydro, lol. :Smile_trollface:

Or so I would think... lel. :Smile_hiding:

Maybe I should dust off my Z39 and play some games in her tonight, to get a "feel" for it... maybe, lul. :Smile_hiding:

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1 hour ago, Vladeshi said:

From the release article

Good armor for their type, which effectively protects against HE shells of most destroyers (unless they have mastered the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill)

I don't think that the bots have IFHE (although I have seen some with Last Stand) so they may be surprisingly useful against DD's if you are good at torp dodging without hydro.

In a PVE setting, it's not Bot DD guns that are the danger to player DDs.  It's Cruiser and Battleship gunfire.  The red Bot DDs die quickly so that they're never a threat.  If "good DD armor vs DD guns" is the selling for these new Destroyers, then to me they're DOA since I have Tech Tree German DDs all the way thru Z-52 already.

 

Anyways, a click glance through these DDs and some hot takes:

Old vs New German DDs.

Tier VIII Z-23 vs GJM

+ Better HP pool for the new DD.

+ 150mm HE has 38mm HE Penetration, farm those High Tier USN BBs anywhere but the armor belt.

+ Improved AP bounce angles.

+ Significantly better torpedo ranges than Z-23.  However, long range torpedoes have a lot less value in Co-Op than it does in PVP.

+ Better torpedo damage than Z-23.

- No Hydro for the new DD.

- Worse concealment.

- Worse speed, worse rudder shift time, worse turning circle radius.

- The 150mm guns have significantly less DPM (HE, AP doesn't matter) than the 128s on Z-23.

- Worse turret traverse, Cruiser levels due to Cruiser Guns.

- Very slow torpedo speed at 50kts while Z-23 fish are 66kts.  This is important because unless you're point blank, a bot ship can still easily evade these.

 

Tier IX Z-46 vs Felix Schultz

+/- All the good and bad points repeat as before, just amplified to Tier IX.

+ FS has Defensive Fire access.

 

Personally, FS had to be really good to stand out to me because Z-46 is my favorite German DD.  FS doesn't impress.

 

Tier X Z-52 vs Elbing

+/- Patterns repeat from prior tiers.

+ Elbing has a significantly higher HP pool of 30.9k, which is absurd on a DD.  Kleber has 21.9k and Khabarovsk has 22.5k!  If Elbing takes SE trait, her HP pool balloons to 34.4k!

 

Late edit:  Just realized, not only do these new German DDs lack the Hydro that the old ones have, but they also lack Engine Boost.

 

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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One issue will be bigger guns mean a larger smoke firing penalty. This is magnified by the lack of hydro, so you might not see them closing in. Not unique to these ships but the bots do tend to charge DDs. So you may find yourself spotted in   your smoke more often. Their limited agility may be a factor if caught off guard sitting in smoke.  Probably no worse than some smokey cruisers and at least you don't have a citadel if caught broadside.

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19 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Very slow torpedo speed at 50kts while Z-23 fish are 66kts.  This is important because unless you're point blank, a bot ship can still easily evade these.

I've found slooooow, long range torps are a much greater danger for team kills. The bots have little trouble dodging them but friendlies do. Its very hard to determine what green ships might stray into your sea mines path when those ships may be going faster than your torps. 

Edited by Sabot_100
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Forgot to take a look at the Tier VII.  It's important because it's eligible for Operation Narai.  Tier VII is where the German DD Split starts.

 

Tier VII Maass vs Z-31

+ Better HP pool than Maass.

+ An unusual reversal compared to the High Tier New German DDs is that Z-31 is stealthier than the old DD.

+ 9.9km torpedoes > Maass' 8.49km torpedo range.

- Maass has Hydro and Z-31 does not.

- Slower, worse turning circle radius, but the same rudder shift time.

- Only 4 guns compared to the 5 of Maass.

- 8 seconds reload is the slowest of the new DDs.  The damage output of the guns look terrible.  4 guns at 8 seconds reload on a DD stinks.

- Another reversal compared to the High Tier New German DDs is that Z-31 has worse torpedo damage than the old fish from Maass.  Significantly worse torpedo reload speed of 120 seconds vs Maass' 90.  Significantly slower 50kt torp speed vs 65 of Maass.

 

IMO, for the reality of Operation Narai, Z-31 is workable.  She's not the worst DD in this tier for Narai.  That dishonor goes to Skane and her Wet Noodle Torpedoes.  But Z-31 can still lay in decent damage with her torps against Missouri.  Maass is better for Narai, but -31 can work.  For a Smoke-capable DD in Narai, there are plenty of good choices, so Z-31 is going to get lost in the mix.  But again, she's workable.

======

Personally, these new German DDs seem pretty meh, but the Tier X is the one that looks at least somewhat interesting solely because of her ridiculous HP levels and that her torpedo alpha is better than Z-52's.  There's nothing that flashy about these DDs but it should not be a pain to grind.  They have Smoke after all, whereas the IKEA and FR DDs, you actually need to work it hard.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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9 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

I've found slooooow, long range torps are a much greater danger for team kills. The bots have little trouble dodging them but friendlies do. Its very hard to determine what green ships might stray into your sea mines path when those ships may be going faster than your torps. 

Yeah, I've had that happen.  Especially if you're off to the side taking broadside torp launches.  Green ships may end up in the line of fire despite them being nowhere in the field of vision when you launched.

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Especially if you're off to the side taking broadside torp launches.  Green ships may end up in the line of fire despite them being nowhere in the field of vision when you launched.

The one torp that misses on your perfect drive by sails off to nail a friendly far, far away quite often. Or when the red ship has the audacity to sink before your torps arrive so a whole rack goes sailing by the dead targets bow because of the lead you need to hit a fast target. It would be nice if WG included a torp destruct button for long range torps.

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Something I missed on my initial views of these new ships:  Not only do they lack the Hydro that the Old German Tech Tree DDs have, but they also lack Engine Boost.

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1 hour ago, Blorgh2017 said:

@HazeGrayUnderway, how about... Z39 vs Z31? LOL. :Smile_trollface::Smile_teethhappy:

Just curious... lel. :Smile_hiding:

Premium Z-39 vs Z-31

+/- Technically Z-39 has more HP than -31 but the advantage is very minor.

+/- Both have pretty mediocre AA.  Max AA range is awful at 3.5km for both.  Z-39 has better Medium Range AA DPS and worse Short Range AA DPS.  Z-31 reverses the values.

+/- Both have the same 38mm HE Pen.

+ Z-31 is significantly stealthier. - I'm actually wrong in this regard.  Z-39 is actually stealthier despite that she has worse stock concealment levels than -31.  The reason is simple.  Z-39 is only the 2nd of two possible ships in Tier VII that has access to Slot 5 upgrades, i.e. CSM1.  Z-39 and Belfast are the only two Tier VII ships that can actually adopt a true, Full Stealth Build.  With Full Stealth Build, Z-39 has 6.08km surface detection.  Z-31 doesn't have that luxury and so the best she can get is 6.2km.

+ Speed, turning circle radius are the same but Z-31 has slightly better rudder shift time.

+ Both have the same AP damage values but Z-31 has better bounce angles.  Fuse times are the same.

+ 9.9km torpedo range > Z-39's 8.49km fish.

- Z-39 shoots faster, 7.5 seconds reload vs 8 of Z-31.

- Z-39 has better 2.2k HE damage vs 1.7k of Z-31.

- Z-39 has better 12% Fire Chance vs 8% of Z-31.

- Z-31 torpedoes have lower damage, worse speed, worse reload.  It's a repeat of Maass vs Z-31 because Z-39 has Maass' torpedoes.

- Z-31 has terrible Consumables choice compared to Z-39.  -39 has DCP / Smoke / Engine Boost / German Hydro.  Z-31 only has DCP / Smoke.

 

IMO, Z-39 is superior.  Even for the considerations of Narai where torpedo lethality is more important than torpedo range, -39 comes out better, and is overflowing with tools.  Another major plus is Z-39 is a Premium Ship and you can swap in whatever favored German DD captain you want, while Tech Tree Z-31 will be limited in captain selection since she's a tech tree ship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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12 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Premium Z-39 vs Z-31

+/- Technically Z-39 has more HP than -31 but the advantage is very minor.

+/- Both have pretty mediocre AA and their strengths are the reverse of each other.  Max AA range is awful at 3.5km for both.  Z-39 has better Medium Range AA DPS and worse Short Range AA DPS.  Z-31 reverses the values.

+/- Both have the same 38mm HE Pen.

+ Z-31 is significantly stealthier.

+ Speed, turning circle radius are the same but Z-31 has slightly better rudder shift time.

+ Both have the same AP damage values but Z-31 has better bounce angles.  Fuse times are the same.

+ 9.9km torpedo range > Z-39's 8.49km fish.

- Z-39 shoots faster, 7.5 seconds reload vs 8 of Z-31.

- Z-39 has better 2.2k HE damage vs 1.7k of Z-31.

- Z-39 has better 12% Fire Chance vs 8% of Z-31.

- Z-31 torpedoes have lower damage, worse speed, worse reload.  It's a repeat of Maass vs Z-31 because Z-39 has Maass' torpedoes.

- Z-31 has terrible Consumables choice compared to Z-39.  -39 has DCP / Smoke / Engine Boost / German Hydro.  Z-31 only has DCP / Smoke.

 

IMO, Z-39 is superior.  Even for the considerations of Narai where torpedo lethality is more important than torpedo range, -39 comes out better, and is overflowing with tools.  Another major plus is Z-39 is a Premium Ship and you can swap in whatever favored German DD captain you want, while Tech Tree Z-31 will be limited in captain selection since she's a tech tree ship.

Mmm, I see. Thanks for that... lol. :Smile_great::Smile_teethhappy:

Guess I'll try to play few games in Z39 tonight, without using the hydro and the speed boost... lel. :Smile_teethhappy::Smile_hiding:

It might be interesting... or flat out bonkers, lul. :Smile_trollface:

Edited by Blorgh2017

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49 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Mmm, I see. Thanks for that... lol. :Smile_great::Smile_teethhappy:

Guess I'll try to play few games in Z39 tonight, without using the hydro and the speed boost... lel. :Smile_teethhappy::Smile_hiding:

It might be interesting... or flat out bonkers, lul. :Smile_trollface:

I noticed late that the HE shells are heavier on Z-31.  I wondered if they had better shell flight characteristics due to that.  Turns out they do.  -39's HE shells float a lot more than -31s.

Max gun ranges:  -39 is 11.8km, -31 is 11.5km.

shot-21-02-12-02-22-41-0196.jpg

Edit:  @Blorgh2017 Check my prior post, there was something I forgot regarding concealment that Z-39 is actually better in than Z-31.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Something I missed on my initial views of these new ships:  Not only do they lack the Hydro that the Old German Tech Tree DDs have, but they also lack Engine Boost.

OK. You can make anything work in coop (some ships are definitely better than others in OPS) but I'm wondering why you would bring these new DDs over the old line. Their advantages are marginal but their disadvantages are significant. 

Generally I have found the current mid-tier  German DDs not as good (for COOP) as most other lines with smoke. They aren't horrible by any means, I just enjoy some other lines more.   Smoke is king in coop so a smoky DD is always easier to make work than  smokeless. 

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

OK. You can make anything work in coop (some ships are definitely better than others in OPS) but I'm wondering why you would bring these new DDs over the old line. Their advantages are marginal but their disadvantages are significant. 

Generally I have found the current mid-tier  German DDs not as good (for COOP) as most other lines with smoke. They aren't horrible by any means, I just enjoy some other lines more.   Smoke is king in coop so a smoky DD is always easier to make work than  smokeless. 

Here's another thing with these upcoming DDs is their armor.  In WG's own description:

"Good armor for their type, which effectively protects against the HE shells of most destroyers (unless they have mastered the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill), and large HP pools. Combined with effective artillery, this results in special gameplay for the new German destroyers. They are essentially agile ships with powerful AP shells that primarily focus on lone targets—light cruisers particularly."

 

WG's idea for these new DDs is to angle out and show a lot of the ship so they can use all their guns and overwhelm a rival DD that way.  They have 25mm armor... Covering only a small part of the mid section of the hull.  I have the tech tree extender mod, so here's the armor profiles of the upcoming DDs.  A lot of the hull is still normal DD levels of armor.  I also know that DD players can and still aim at the superstructure of another DD, i.e. they quickly learned to do this against Khabarovsk because of her 50mm armor sections on the hull.  The DDs are shown below with an angle that looks like where all guns can be presented against you the viewer.

shot-21-04-13-19-46-32-0189.jpgshot-21-04-13-19-45-56-0643.jpgshot-21-04-13-19-46-58-0160.jpg

The above 3 have huge areas on the hull where DDs can still hit.  Below is the Tier X.

shot-21-04-13-19-47-32-0677.jpg

 

Here's the Artillery Chart for the 4 upcoming DDs, to include French Tier VIII Le Fantasque with the 139mm guns.  Why the FR DD?  Because these new German DDs aren't the first time WG tried promoting a DD Line with strong AP meant to harm Cruisers.  The High Tier FR DDs have increased AP performance compared to the ships in their own line from Tier VII and below. 

For the chart below, the new German Tier VII & VIII overlap:  They have the exact same shell performances in flight and AP Penetration.

Tech Tree FR DDs in High Tier, to include VIII Premium DD Le Terrible, share the same shell flight characteristics and AP Penetration as VIII Le Fantasque.

shot-21-04-13-19-45-56-0643.jpg

 

WG actually missed out on an opportunity here for these German 150 DDs.  They didn't push out a Tier VI one with AP performance like above.  Coupled that with Smoke that these DDs have, it would be pretty nice in Tier VI Operations, particularly in Aegis.

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10 hours ago, Vladeshi said:

From the release article

Good armor for their type, which effectively protects against HE shells of most destroyers (unless they have mastered the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill)

I don't think that the bots have IFHE (although I have seen some with Last Stand) so they may be surprisingly useful against DD's if you are good at torp dodging without hydro.

Every ship now has 20% engine power without the skill.

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22 hours ago, lewellenfawr said:

In a PvE setting, I was thinking about how to use the new German Destroyers. If there really is no role then should I push to acquire them in early access? The description suggests that they will not do well-contesting caps with other destroyers early on in the game. If yne could infiltrate behind the first wave of red destroyers they may have a use against the following cruisers with their guns and then with torps against the battleships. It seems a bit overspecialized to me at this point.

I'm really asking if any of our PvE mains have thought about this?

Enjoy tomorrow... update day.

Well, I have had no interest in these DD's whatsoever. They have looked awful from day one (did they get smoke added last second or something - thought they were no smoke like French and EU???). Big, slow, horrible concealment, etc... and the whole kill Cruisers with them thing WG put out there made me LOL. It all just turned me off. BUT, as I always do every line to T10 whether I like it or not I decided to see if I would have any luck getting the T9 to drop in the bundles to save grinding.

Well surprise surprise but it dropped really early and I also got the 3000 Token drop very early too. So I have the T9 and I got enough tokens so I could get the T7 and T8. I think I might be able to get enough tokens from missions and stuff, hopefully, to get the perma for the T9 but I won't spend more to get them for the T10 as much as I would like it. Too $$$ so I will just get the reg perma instead.

Honestly I am surprised they are as good as they are. Not great (man they are BIG for DD's) but not the horror show I expected. Having smoke definitely makes a difference. And I was shocked at how hard the AP hits. I mean really hard. If a Cruiser gives you broadside you can citadel it pretty easy and the AP is brutal against upper belts and superstructure. Torps are sea mines they are so slow but long range and fast reload. They seem pretty tough too for a DD with big HP pools and some armor. 

I can honestly say that I expected the Italian BB's to be crap upon release and these DD's to be crap on release. The Italians are major crap and fully met all expectations :Smile_veryhappy: but these aren't as bad as I thought. They can work in Co-op.

T7.jpg

T8.jpg

T9.jpg

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These DDs are pretty mediocre but the fact that:

1.  Their torpedoes hit decently hard.

And

2.  They got Smoke.

 

Means they're easy to work with in Co-Op.  Even the Tier VII will work just fine in Operation Narai, because the worst DD in Tier VII is Skane, without a doubt.  Standard Co-Op DD tactics will work with these.  The non-smoke DD Lines, FR & IKEA, those are the ones you actually have to play smarter, differently compared to the "normal" smoke DD Lines.  The FR DDs can smash faces pretty good with smart play and proper map use, but any mistakes and they're in big trouble.  No smoke to bail them out.

 

The new German DDs do have smoke.  One thing to remember is that their gun bloom from smoke isn't as bad as CRUISER CL guns, but they are worse than typical DD size guns.

Smoke Gun Bloom RangesBold ones are the new German DDs.

VII Z-31 150mm, 3.09km

VII Maass 128mm, 2.92km - Has Hydro with 4km ship detection range.

 

VIII GJM 150mm, 3.49km - Substantially worse than even the Tier VII.

VIII Z-23 128mm, 2.99km - Has Hydro with 5km ship detection range.

 

IX FS 150mm, 3.54km - It actually got worse!

IX Z-46 128mm, 2.83km - It actually went lower!  Has Hydro with 5km ship detection range.

 

X Elbing 150mm, 3.62km - Easily the worst gun bloom in smoke out of all these new 150mm armed German DDs.

X Z-52 128mm, 2.92km - It went worse than IX Z-46 but still better than VIII Z-23.  Has awesome Hydro with rocking 6km ship detection range!

 

And several USN DDs found in the same tiers.

VII Mahan, VIII Benson, IX Fletcher 127mm, 2.75km

X Gearing 127mm, 2.83km

 

The gun bloom in smoke is something to be aware of.  With normal smoke DDs when gunning down a bot DD, they sometimes still get close enough with my 127mm armed DDs that they spot me due to gun bloom.  They don't live much longer typically for it to be a concern.  The worry for these new German DDs is that they'll be spotted in their own smoke earlier than the 127mm, 128mm armed DDs.  I'm willing to bet that due to the slower firing 150mm DD guns, bot DDs will push in a lot of times to get the new German DD spotted.  You still don't want a bot Shimakaze getting close enough to drop 15 fish into you, and your guns are too slow to stop it from doing that.  Friends in the area shooting the bot DD up will mitigate risks, but if you're alone, it's something you have to be prepared in dealing with.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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As I figured, the new German DDs runs into the problem of having the bots go bow in to you often thus you don't get much broadside cruisers to shoot at, but when you do get broadsides, those AP shells will tear them apart.

 

shot-21_04.14_13_35.37-0127.jpg.0ad47c181490920bb005869288516a1e.jpg

 

Just need to have more target selection of cruisers to farm on.

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1 hour ago, Vader_Sama said:

As I figured, the new German DDs runs into the problem of having the bots go bow in to you often thus you don't get much broadside cruisers to shoot at, but when you do get broadsides, those AP shells will tear them apart.

 

shot-21_04.14_13_35.37-0127.jpg.0ad47c181490920bb005869288516a1e.jpg

 

Just need to have more target selection of cruisers to farm on.

IMO, this is one of those DD lines, like the IKEA DDs, that are more suited for PVP.  PVP games go a lot longer, there's way more into a match that merits maneuvering, positioning.  Random Battles also have more possible targets to shoot at.  But it's also way more unforgiving.

 

Really, if this new Line started at Tier VI, imagine what those "new" German DD guns would do in Aegis, Killer Whale, Raptor Rescue.

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