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OuijaApologist

Dev response on RU forum to 'correcting misinformation regarding secondary accuracy' post

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Lol, you beat me by 3 minutes...

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Ok, so basically they are saying the 4 point commander skill that reduces the ships reload when in range of the secondary battery balances out the reduced accuracy. 

But they are also saying they need more data, 

So with that said, we need BB's to get in close and use their secondaries to help fill their spreadsheet with data so they can see they are/are not effective. 
Moar Data Required!

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Well after they changed the deadeye skill after a lot of complaining, i truly believe that with a lot of noise they will make secondaries great again, we just need to keep annoying then and ignoring those "same sh*t different story" as you said

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So basically their argument is that secondaries shouldn't be used for memes, but a tool to buff main battery. 

And of course because of the higher reload afforded by the main battery you get similar overall damage as before the skill rework.

As someone put it on the EU forum thread, I didn't know accountants were balancing the game.

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13 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

So basically their argument is that secondaries shouldn't be used for memes, but a tool to buff main battery. 

And of course because of the higher reload afforded by the main battery you get similar overall damage as before the skill rework.

As someone put it on the EU forum thread, I didn't know accountants were balancing the game.

If one were inclined to be less pessimistic you could see it this way.

Secondary battery guns were always intended to be secondary to the main armament, the old skill system encouraged putting too many points into the secondary battery, at the expense of the main battery. The current system is attempting to balance the national flavour of "strong secondary battery", with a focus on the main battery. More data will be collected to ensure the balance between main and secondary weapon systems is effective and fun. 

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36 minutes ago, VeatherVitch said:

If one were inclined to be less pessimistic you could see it this way.

Secondary battery guns were always intended to be secondary to the main armament, the old skill system encouraged putting too many points into the secondary battery, at the expense of the main battery. The current system is attempting to balance the national flavour of "strong secondary battery", with a focus on the main battery. More data will be collected to ensure the balance between main and secondary weapon systems is effective and fun. 

Personally I don't have a horse in this race; most of the BBs I play aren't sec specced since I enjoy mid range engagements more. 

That said, considering one of the goals of the rework was to reduce cookie cutter builds, people could be given a choice to go a full meme secondary build that sacrifices some main battery efficiency, and the balance of main-sec battery you describe. 

WG using total damage stats as a justification for the arguments and facts shown by the community isn't a good response in my opinion. 

To add an example that I notice constantly are Mass players. Pre-rework getting within 7-8km of a Mass in a DD while spotted was asking for trouble; now I can move around like it's nobody's business. The owner of the ship bought it for the excellent and accurate secondary suite. However in the current scenario that suite is used to boost the main battery which wasn't anything crazy to begin with. The Mass player due to the rof bonus may be getting the damage figures he normally does, but the character of the ship he bought is different now.

Edited by warheart1992
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So, according to WG, the only way secondaries are viable are if you focus on your main guns.

I mean the whole reason to take a secondary specc'd battleship is to use the secondaries.  To do so, you need things like concealment and FP to get in range.  So now instead of using those secondaries, (and having manual fire control as your 3rd, 4 point skill), you should just focus on your main gun reload.  

Seems like a terrible thought process from WG on this one.

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52 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

 

As someone put it on the EU forum thread, I didn't know accountants were balancing the game.

I did.

Pommern will likely be the last secondary based ship I will get.  And that is only because its coal, it's tier 9, and I have the Odin already with a 21 pt captain.

They can point out whatever numbers they want, but the gameplay isn't the same.

 

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Secondaries were overtuned so they nerfed them across the board, simple. I can't say I disagree. 

It is a detriment in terms of variety, but I never liked the mechanic in the first place. Raking 70-80k damage without any input from the player is even dumber than CVs. 

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

Should WG balance via some players feelings or data?

The problem with data as so many statisticians have pointed is that it can show you a lot of the things you want it to show you disregarding if its right or wrong. ( Some have said it much better then me).

Examples:

1. Right now you could introduce a class into WoWs that simply has an aoe effect. IE every 10 seconds it has a pulse that damages all enemy ships by 100 hp within 25km of the source ship.  That specific number might not be right but you can sure as hell tune it so that it looks good on a spread sheet.

2. OR WG could make a class that shoots self guided rockets.  Every minute the thing reloads a missile that does  10k damage.   You could again just tweak the value of damage and reload to make a class that works on the spreadsheet.

2.  In the real world if all a bank ever did was look at the spreads sheets and raw data then they would not be able to tell the difference between a successful drug dealer and a perfume store.  Hell just from the raw spreadsheet they wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a contractor for renovations or one for murder.

 

What I am saying context is always important and considering that a lot of players feelings are based on the actual in game experience they provide context. 

 

 

 

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20 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Secondaries were overtuned so they nerfed them across the board, simple. I can't say I disagree. 

It is a detriment in terms of variety, but I never liked the mechanic in the first place. Raking 70-80k damage without any input from the player is even dumber than CVs. 

THAT  is where I agree on the problem with secondaries. Just as I have a problem with AA.  Its a no input thing, PVE mechanics in a PVP game.  Which is why secondaries and AA are so much more satisfying in the game that shall not be named. 

Edited by eviltane
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It's always interesting to see how different people pick and choose what someone has said, then insert their own meaning into it to present that as what was said.  I've seen it all throughout the years in this and other games, and it seems a human constant whenever there is a public forum.  

 

Just reading what was said, in no way did WG say that secondaries were only a way to buff the main battery, nor that they are only viable if you focus on the main battery.  What they said was that the secondaries can't be taken separate from the other weapons on the ship in deciding how to balance a ship and that they provided an option to make the main battery work in tandem with the secondaries for those players who choose to spec their captain for short-ranged combat, as an additional skill that came with the changes (not necessarily complete nerfs, which they were not) to secondaries and secondary captains skills.  

 

Think for a moment.  If you buff the secondaries on a battleship such that they become notably more effective but leave every other system on it untouched, does that skill become game-changing against those captains in the same ship that don't take it?  Do you leave that situation unchanged when you see it?  Would the players accept that situation or themselves call for it to be changed?  Why then would anyone ask for improvements to their secondaries that were significant without accepting downsides?  What WG is saying is that they considered the entire Battleship when selecting what changes to make, and not just one part of the ship.  That -IS- what players want them to do, yes?

 

And what are the downsides right now?  In the old Secondary captain skill the downside was that your non-facing secondaries didn't fire.  Now, they do.  In the old Secondaries, some may have been more accurate, but some of those were also shorter ranged.  Sounds like an adjustment rather than a straight out nerf to me.  

 

What I can see is that a meta people got used to was changed, and that those who relied upon it are not happy.  Fair enough.  But be truthful in your dislike and comments.  Don't insert meaning that was obviously not what was meant into someone's words.  We get too much of that in the kind of spin media that has people believing the Earth is flat and that the moon landings were faked.  Don't feed that kind of untruth.

 

My two cents.

 

 

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1 hour ago, DrHolmes52 said:

I did.

Pommern will likely be the last secondary based ship I will get.  And that is only because its coal, it's tier 9, and I have the Odin already with a 21 pt captain.

They can point out whatever numbers they want, but the gameplay isn't the same.

 

How is the gameplay not the same? 

Secondaries engage sooner now, they just arent as accurate at range. However in a battleship on battleship brawl you still get plenty of hits, especially the closer the range. 

The only thing you cant do is farm free damage on a destroyer 10km while shooting your primary target with the main battery. Now you get to use both secondary sets at once though, on both sides of the ship.

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1 minute ago, Skuggsja said:

How is the gameplay not the same? 

Secondaries engage sooner now, they just arent as accurate at range. However in a battleship on battleship brawl you still get plenty of hits, especially the closer the range. 

The only thing you cant do is farm free damage on a destroyer 10km while shooting your primary target with the main battery. Now you get to use both secondary sets at once though, on both sides of the ship.

Playing coop (like I do), you specified the differences.

It may be better for the PVP game that you can't click kill DDs, but the investment in captains points for what I now get out of them isn't the same.

Hell, the main reason I got them was to do secondary hit missions.  Now they take longer (probably another reason for the changes).

I have enough ships that can do secondary hit missions.  There isn't a reason to get more.

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People want to spec secondaries for effective secondaries...not a faster reload on the main guns...

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2 hours ago, Boily_Boi said:

Ok, so basically they are saying the 4 point commander skill that reduces the ships reload when in range of the secondary battery balances out the reduced accuracy. But they are also saying they need more data...

They obviously don't care about the impact of the survivability loss that the skill change (even with 2 more points for the captains,) has on the ships. It really only shows itself at higher tier, and with the way that so many players seem to have little interest in actually tanking damage (the majority think it is all about either hiding at the back & dodging, or just YOLO death in dramatic fashion...) I fear that the share of us who actually appreciated the subtle art of secondary ships at high tier will either just have to accept WG doesn't know their game well enough to see what they actually did. :-/ 

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I'm a dd main and used to speed boost away from high tier secondary builds. 

Not anymore.    Now I stay at 9-12km, rock back and forth and farm until the big guns are turning my way.  IMO the secondary nerf was too much. I should at least feel some degree of threat.  

The ships I played next most were secondary build battleships. Not anymore.  

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14 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

However in a battleship on battleship brawl you still get plenty of hits, especially the closer the range. 

If your enemy lacks screeners to torp you to death, if your enemy is fool enough to close to point blank range (~5km at high tiers, closer for low), if you aren’t blapped by crossfire as you close the range or as you angle to get secondaries on target... if it’s that 1 game in 10 where your secondaries are viable you can still get plenty of hits.

 

As for WG, I have to question the logic that survivability or main battery capabilities are going to make French BBs brawl better. No amount of survivability makes up for squishy armor. And shaving a few seconds off of MB reload doesn’t help guns that even at close range struggle to hit and penetrate hard targets (if they aren’t already broken by enemy fire).

And even if the spreadsheet says it’s just as effective, it’s a lot less fun.

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53 minutes ago, Telastyn said:

If your enemy lacks screeners to torp you to death, if your enemy is fool enough to close to point blank range (~5km at high tiers, closer for low), if you aren’t blapped by crossfire as you close the range or as you angle to get secondaries on target... if it’s that 1 game in 10 where your secondaries are viable you can still get plenty of hits.

That sounds more like an issue of trying to push in and use secondaries way too soon or trying to use them on someone you shouldnt.

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1 hour ago, DrHolmes52 said:

Playing coop (like I do), you specified the differences

In Co-op every enemy boat pushes forward immediately. I dont understand how that's somehow worse. In fact you're more likely to be able to engage with both sides as a group charges forward at you.

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5 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

That sounds more like an issue of trying to push in and use secondaries way too soon or trying to use them on someone you shouldnt.

And what percentage of post-rework random games do you get “plenty of hits” with your secondaries? With say, an Alsace?

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1 hour ago, TheArc said:

I fear that the share of us who actually appreciated the subtle art of secondary ships at high tier will either just have to accept WG doesn't know their game well enough to see what they actually did. :-/ 

I'm fairly sure they understand well enough what they did, they just didn't like very much what you were doing... farming absurd levels of automated damaged.

TBH, it was their fault to begin with. To sale a gimmicky ship line with over tuned automated abilities then nerf it to standard reasonable levels to make room for the new gimmicky over tuned ship line. A normal day at the office.

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1 hour ago, cmdr_bigdog said:

I'm a dd main and used to speed boost away from high tier secondary builds.  Not anymore.    Now I stay at 9-12km, rock back and forth and farm until the big guns are turning my way.  IMO the secondary nerf was too much. I should at least feel some degree of threat.  The ships I played next most were secondary build battleships. Not anymore.  

Agreed 100% and if WG wanted to make DDs effectively immune to secondaries, they've succeeded. The only time you can hit DDs with secondaries is if they're stationary from beaching or just well... licking their monitor. DDs at speed and range always were (and IMO should've been,) immune from secondary hits. But having a high tier fully spec'd ship was a very effective way from keeping a smart DD player from trying the 2km YOLO torp that works so well against the brain dead bots of co-op.

1 hour ago, Skuggsja said:

How is the gameplay not the same? Secondaries engage sooner now, they just arent as accurate at range. However in a battleship on battleship brawl you still get plenty of hits, especially the closer the range. 

The only thing you cant do is farm free damage on a destroyer 10km while shooting your primary target with the main battery. Now you get to use both secondary sets at once though, on both sides of the ship.

The fact that you state what you stated says you're just not aware of the facts about how the skill rework actually impacted it. And as there have been plenty of discussions showing those facts, you are either incapable or unwilling to educate yourself about it.

2 hours ago, Jakob_Knight said:

Just reading what was said, in no way did WG say that secondaries were only a way to buff the main battery, nor that they are only viable if you focus on the main battery.  

---

And what are the downsides right now?  In the old Secondary captain skill the downside was that your non-facing secondaries didn't fire.  Now, they do.  In the old Secondaries, some may have been more accurate, but some of those were also shorter ranged.  Sounds like an adjustment rather than a straight out nerf to me.  

I'm not sure anyone said that it was the "only" way that WG is misunderstanding how things work now, but I guess that's what cherry picking your information is impacting what you're reading.

At high tier, the downside definitely is a straight out nerf to secondaries. It impacted the accuracy (even with both sides firing now vs one side in the past,) but it also impacted the survivability of the ship, by changing the survival skill choices and eliminating the past bonus of AA & secondary improvements being paired together. Also it takes another 1.2M captain skill points to get the lower secondary quality ship in the rework now.

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