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zubalkabir

So how does secondary accuracy really work?

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My assumption is that secondary accuracy basically starts out at 100%, meaning the AI will aim at the perfect spot to hit a target based on its current range, course, and speed at the time the gun is fired.  After that the accuracy is impacted (heavily) by dispersion, sigma, and any maneuvering or speed changes the target does.  Or is there also an accuracy penalty baked in that simulates gunners not aiming straight in the first place?

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2 hours ago, zubalkabir said:

My assumption is that secondary accuracy basically starts out at 100%, meaning the AI will aim at the perfect spot to hit a target based on its current range, course, and speed at the time the gun is fired.  After that the accuracy is impacted (heavily) by dispersion, sigma, and any maneuvering or speed changes the target does.  Or is there also an accuracy penalty baked in that simulates gunners not aiming straight in the first place?

secondary guns have good intention and aim properly then dispersion and sigma kick in and basicaly turn them into this

 

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10 hours ago, zubalkabir said:

My assumption is that secondary accuracy basically starts out at 100%, meaning the AI will aim at the perfect spot to hit a target based on its current range, course, and speed at the time the gun is fired.  After that the accuracy is impacted (heavily) by dispersion, sigma, and any maneuvering or speed changes the target does.  Or is there also an accuracy penalty baked in that simulates gunners not aiming straight in the first place?

I assume that the AI accuracy is 100%.

With dispersion, sigma, and target maneuvering, coding in a random aim point seems like extra work for nothing.

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Secondary Batteries have dispersion, Sigma values like your Main Batteries.  Here's North Carolina and Bismarck as examples.  A big key is the 1.0 Sigma value.  So think about how your BB guns are with 1.5, 1.6, 1.8 Sigma.  Now imagine if they were 1.0.  That's a big reason why Secondary Batteries are less accurate.  Dispersion values play a big role, also.  The ring where your shells can possibly land.  Reload is also a thing because faster firing guns can help mask the accuracy issues.  Roll the dice again sooner, rather than later.

 

North Carolina 127mm at 6.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 407m dispersion, 6 seconds reload.

- This is awful.  The range is shorter, not surprising compared to the German BB, but the dispersion is bad.  She also has a slow 6 seconds reload, so that doesn't help matters.

 

Bismarck 105mm at 7.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 361m dispersion.  3.3 seconds reload.

- Good balance compared to North Carolina.  Fast firing, more accurate (better dispersion), better range, not to mention better Pen.

Bismarck 150mm have the same range, Sigma, dispersion as the 105mm guns, but the reload is 7.5 seconds.

- Could be better, especially with the fancy 38mm HE Pen, but the reload holds the 150s back.

 

Here's Massachusetts, who has built in extra accuracy.  127mm at 7.5km, 1.0 Sigma, 271m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- Gimmicked up accuracy.  Without upgrades the range is only 0.1km shorter than Bismarck, but the dispersion at basically the same range is much better than even the German BB.  Reload is a good compromise, much faster than North Carolina and only 0.7 seconds slower than Bismarck.  However, does not have Bismarck's superior HE Pen.

- Exact same model of guns and turret mounts as North Carolina, but magically better.

raw

 

Decided to throw in another "Normal Secondaries" BB from the same tier, this time Amagi.

127mm secondaries have the exact same range, Sigma, dispersion, and even reload speed as NC's 127mm.

- Just like on NC, this is awful.

Here's where it gets a little interesting.  Her 140mm guns.  Same range, same Sigma as the 127s.  Dispersion is 248m, which is very small.  However, the 140s have a terrible 8 seconds reload.  Like Bismarck's 150s, there was potential here, but let down by terrible reload.

 

Here is Lepanto from Tier IX.  She has 152mm and 90mm secondaries.

90mm at 6.9km, 1.0 Sigma, 260m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- She's a tier higher than the above, but you can see the dispersion of the 90mm guns is very low.  Reload is the same as Massachusetts.  These are actually accurate and fast firing secondaries.  But they have horrendous HE Penetration.  Unless you get lucky and set fires, you can't count on the 90mm guns.

152mm have same range, Sigma as the 90mm guns.  Dispersion is 427m and reload is 8 seconds.

- Bad dispersion, terrible reload, you cannot count on her 152s.

Of interest is Vittorio Veneto in Tier VIII doesn't have 90mm secondaries with extra accuracy as found on Lepanto a tier higher.

 

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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35 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Secondary Batteries have dispersion, Sigma values like your Main Batteries.  Here's North Carolina and Bismarck as examples.  A big key is the 1.0 Sigma value.  So think about how your BB guns are with 1.5, 1.6, 1.8 Sigma.  Now imagine if they were 1.0.  That's a big reason why Secondary Batteries are less accurate.  Dispersion values play a big role, also.  The ring where your shells can possibly land.  Reload is also a thing because faster firing guns can help mask the accuracy issues.  Roll the dice again sooner, rather than later.

 

North Carolina 127mm at 6.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 407m dispersion, 6 seconds reload.

- This is awful.  The range is shorter, not surprising compared to the German BB, but the dispersion is bad.  She also has a slow 6 seconds reload, so that doesn't help matters.

 

Bismarck 105mm at 7.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 361m dispersion.  3.3 seconds reload.

- Good balance compared to North Carolina.  Fast firing, more accurate (better dispersion), better range, not to mention better Pen.

Bismarck 150mm have the same range, Sigma, dispersion as the 105mm guns, but the reload is 7.5 seconds.

- Could be better, especially with the fancy 38mm HE Pen, but the reload holds the 150s back.

 

Here's Massachusetts, who has built in extra accuracy.  127mm at 7.5km, 1.0 Sigma, 271m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- Gimmicked up accuracy.  Without upgrades the range is only 0.1km shorter than Bismarck, but the dispersion at basically the same range is much better than even the German BB.  Reload is a good compromise, much faster than North Carolina and only 0.7 seconds slower than Bismarck.  However, does not have Bismarck's superior HE Pen.

- Exact same model of guns and turret mounts as North Carolina, but magically better.

raw

 

Decided to throw in another "Normal Secondaries" BB from the same tier, this time Amagi.

127mm secondaries have the exact same range, Sigma, dispersion, and even reload speed as NC's 127mm.

- Just like on NC, this is awful.

Here's where it gets a little interesting.  Her 140mm guns.  Same range, same Sigma as the 127s.  Dispersion is 248m, which is very small.  However, the 140s have a terrible 8 seconds reload.  Like Bismarck's 150s, there was potential here, but let down by terrible reload.

 

Here is Lepanto from Tier IX.  She has 152mm and 90mm secondaries.

90mm at 6.9km, 1.0 Sigma, 260m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- She's a tier higher than the above, but you can see the dispersion of the 90mm guns is very low.  Reload is the same as Massachusetts.  These are actually accurate and fast firing secondaries.  But they have horrendous HE Penetration.  Unless you get lucky and set fires, you can't count on the 90mm guns.

152mm have same range, Sigma as the 90mm guns.  Dispersion is 427m and reload is 8 seconds.

- Bad dispersion, terrible reload, you cannot count on her 152s.

Of interest is Vittorio Veneto in Tier VIII doesn't have 90mm secondaries with extra accuracy as found on Lepanto a tier higher.

 

This, all of this! Thanks for doing the explanation, I was gonna do it myself, but you've already covered basically all the points : )

Fun tidbit though: Massachusetts' secondaries are actually more historically accurate lols BECAUSE they fire faster than 6s reload base! Which actually leads to the question of WHY the iconic 5"/38 mounts have this standard weak 6s reload....they should be 5s base, and it wouldn't even mess up balance in the slightest. It'll just be "corrected", honestly. Massachusetts' secondaries will still be faster and more accurate, anyways.

Just a thought!

 

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9 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

secondary guns have good intention and aim properly then dispersion and sigma kick in and basicaly turn them into this

 

No, it's more like this:

Police Accuracy - Family Guy GIF - FamilyGuy Police Shotgun - Discover &  Share GIFs

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Secondary Batteries have dispersion, Sigma values like your Main Batteries.  Here's North Carolina and Bismarck as examples.  A big key is the 1.0 Sigma value.  So think about how your BB guns are with 1.5, 1.6, 1.8 Sigma.  Now imagine if they were 1.0.  That's a big reason why Secondary Batteries are less accurate.  Dispersion values play a big role, also.  The ring where your shells can possibly land.  Reload is also a thing because faster firing guns can help mask the accuracy issues.  Roll the dice again sooner, rather than later.

 

North Carolina 127mm at 6.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 407m dispersion, 6 seconds reload.

- This is awful.  The range is shorter, not surprising compared to the German BB, but the dispersion is bad.  She also has a slow 6 seconds reload, so that doesn't help matters.

 

Bismarck 105mm at 7.6km, 1.0 Sigma, 361m dispersion.  3.3 seconds reload.

- Good balance compared to North Carolina.  Fast firing, more accurate (better dispersion), better range, not to mention better Pen.

Bismarck 150mm have the same range, Sigma, dispersion as the 105mm guns, but the reload is 7.5 seconds.

- Could be better, especially with the fancy 38mm HE Pen, but the reload holds the 150s back.

 

Here's Massachusetts, who has built in extra accuracy.  127mm at 7.5km, 1.0 Sigma, 271m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- Gimmicked up accuracy.  Without upgrades the range is only 0.1km shorter than Bismarck, but the dispersion at basically the same range is much better than even the German BB.  Reload is a good compromise, much faster than North Carolina and only 0.7 seconds slower than Bismarck.  However, does not have Bismarck's superior HE Pen.

- Exact same model of guns and turret mounts as North Carolina, but magically better.

raw

 

Decided to throw in another "Normal Secondaries" BB from the same tier, this time Amagi.

127mm secondaries have the exact same range, Sigma, dispersion, and even reload speed as NC's 127mm.

- Just like on NC, this is awful.

Here's where it gets a little interesting.  Her 140mm guns.  Same range, same Sigma as the 127s.  Dispersion is 248m, which is very small.  However, the 140s have a terrible 8 seconds reload.  Like Bismarck's 150s, there was potential here, but let down by terrible reload.

 

Here is Lepanto from Tier IX.  She has 152mm and 90mm secondaries.

90mm at 6.9km, 1.0 Sigma, 260m dispersion, 4 seconds reload.

- She's a tier higher than the above, but you can see the dispersion of the 90mm guns is very low.  Reload is the same as Massachusetts.  These are actually accurate and fast firing secondaries.  But they have horrendous HE Penetration.  Unless you get lucky and set fires, you can't count on the 90mm guns.

152mm have same range, Sigma as the 90mm guns.  Dispersion is 427m and reload is 8 seconds.

- Bad dispersion, terrible reload, you cannot count on her 152s.

Of interest is Vittorio Veneto in Tier VIII doesn't have 90mm secondaries with extra accuracy as found on Lepanto a tier higher.

 

Okay, that sounds a lot like what the guns feel like they're doing.  Thanks for the in-depth explanation.  Basically, anything less than 5" is pretty useless at anything except arson due to lack of pen (except some German 105mm).  A bit disappointing about all the 150mm and larger useless secondary guns.  I didn't play BBs much prior to WG converting all the secondaries to HE only, but I'm wondering if 6" AP secondaries actually did better.

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1 minute ago, zubalkabir said:

Okay, that sounds a lot like what the guns feel like they're doing.  Thanks for the in-depth explanation.  Basically, anything less than 5" is pretty useless at anything except arson due to lack of pen (except some German 105mm).  A bit disappointing about all the 150mm and larger useless secondary guns.  I didn't play BBs much prior to WG converting all the secondaries to HE only, but I'm wondering if 6" AP secondaries actually did better.

Also keep in mind that Japanese 100mm secondaries DO have improved pen (like 30mm pen lols) BUT since they don't have improved secondaries dispersion in any form, and secondaries accuracy in general is trashed due to the huge Manual Secondaries nerf for Tier 7 and up BBs, it's a bit of a booby prize currently. Shikishima would have been amazing, but alas, it can't hit anything reliably with its secondaries...it's pretty unfortunate, because the rate of fire for Japanese 100mm mounts are pretty darn fast.

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