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Pan European DD Line Part Deux, Take Two: Now With 100% Less Dutch!

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The Netherlands is getting it's own tech tree! 

And there was much rejoicing | The words of a very minor prophet

I have to start all over again coming up with an alternative line split for Pan-European destroyers!

James Van Der Beek Talks Viral Meme from 'Dawson's Creek' - PureWow

For those readers out there who remember my last attempt to create a 2nd branch of Destroyers for Europe, recall that my purpose was to get Dutch destroyers shoehorned into a cohesive line without resorting to using overtly fake ships or the Holland-class. It wasn't my best work IMO, but I do believe it was cohesive with the information I had at the time. Now though, things have changed. Not only will The Netherlands be a real boy Tech Tree,  but I now have more information on possible replacements for those gaps, including a precious tier X candidate! Big h/t to @Kingpin61 whose own work on the Pan European lines is highly anticipated by yours truly! 

First thing's first though, a little preface. As I had mentioned in the other thread, the main reason I used the Dutch as a starting point was because they would have similarities in capability to the Swedish DDs we already have in game. While still be unique enough to warrant a distinctive playstyle change. I had also mentioned that outside of Sweden, there wasn't really any other nation that could create a full (or nearly) full line of ships in a similar manner. Well... that too has changed. Enter; Spain.

Now, tobefaaaaaair... Spain in theory! might, and I do stress might have enough designs and real ships to warrant becoming it's own nation in WoWs someday as well. Spain is the only other Major/Minor navy to have any significant amounts of ships of all relevant classes but at least insofar as I can see, there are still gaps that need to and can be filled, so off to Europe they go. So, the important question to you is "whell TW, what changed from last time"? Let's find out!

So immediately, we have a problem: Do we start at tier II or do we branch off from the Swedish line somewhere? Whelp, I'm going to leave that up to you dear reader! The following are 3 2 different candidates for tier II destroyer. They are:

(Spain) Alsedo-class

<i>Alsedo </i>1944

(Greece) Aetos-class

<i>Aetos </i>1914

Really the only thing that has changed here is me dropping the Triglav-class torpedo boats from Yugoslavia (ex. Italian). If you want more background information on the ships, check out the old post. Now then, tier III presents an... interesting possibility. One the one hand we have my original suggestion of the Norwegian Gyller, one of the excellent Sleipner-class torpedo boats seen here:

<i>Sleipner </i>1955

The other option could be the Spanish (again ex. Italian) destroyer Huesca:

<i>Teruel </i>1938

This ship was an old "esploratori" DL type DD from WWI that was basically gifted to the Nationalists during the Civil War. Despite their age and poor condition, the Spanish, for lack of anything better got the most out of them. Armament would consist of 5x1 4" guns and 2x2 18" torpedoes which is a modest step up from the previous tier, despite being a much larger ship. What makes this an intriguing alternative is the fact that it has the potential to skew into a 3rd line of European DDs! One based on Italian and French designs that would incorporate a fair bit of small nations. However, given the distinctively British nature of the designs we're working with, it isn't the most natural choice.

Tier IV would continue in a similar manner to the previous lineup:

(Norway) Ålesund-class

Royal Norwegian Navy in WW2

Again, a departure from the British derived designs that will come later, but should still make for a perfectly cromulent option. Tier V comes with a few different-but-not-really options here. Two Spanish, one Portuguese! You can take your pick of the Almirante Antequera-class, a derivative of the excellent Churucca-class:

<i>Almirante Antequera </i>1936

The similar, and anachronistic Álava-class:

<i>Álava </i>1951

Or the Portuguese Douro-class:

<i>Vouga </i>1933

The main difference between these ships primarily comes down to displacement and torpedo tubes carried (either 2 sets of 3 or 4 depending on the class). The Churucca's based on the Scott-class DL of WWI vintage were considered one of, if not the best destroyer in the world at the time, whereas the Douro's were based on a similar but slightly newer Ambuscade design. Otherwise both had 4x1 4.7" QF guns, in the traditional A-B-X-Y positions, some AA, some DCR and DCTs mounted and capable of 36kts. That being said, both the Álava and Douro do have some, rather unique histories that could count against their inclusion into the Pan European line altogether. With Álava, it simply comes down to the fact that she was built in the 1950s! Especially when you consider that she was already a repeat of the Almirante Antequera-class, would make her redundant. Douro is a bit more interesting. The first 2 ships of the class being built for Portugal got sold to Colombia and entered service as the Antioquia-class, so these ships could instead end up in the LATAM dd line, again making it's European counterpart theoretically redundant. 

Tier VI would naturally follow as the original Churucca-class:

<i>Lepanto </i>1936

The only real difference here is the 5th 4.7" guns mounted amidships. Not the most exciting ship, and truthfully it's a ship that also falls into the redundant trap as the Argentine Navy also used the ship as the Cervantes-class and likely would make an appearance in the LATAM dd line. This means we'll need to find an alternative just in case. And wouldn't you know it! I just happen to have one! 

(Greece) Vasilefs Georgios I-class

<i>Vasilefs Georgios I </i>1940

These ships were basically just G-class destroyers built for Greece... but fitted for German 12.7cm guns and AAA. Two ships were completed, with the lead ship actually being attacked, scuttled, raised and repaired, sent back out under a German flag and then sunk in 1943! This is a really interesting DD and one that dovetails well with the fact that the Spanish also use German AA guns on their older British derived warships. And since the G-class is already well established in the game, this is almost a no-brainer to add to our line. Almost. Because, if we were interested in keeping with our Spanish ships at tier VI, might I interest you in this instead:

Imagen

What you are looking at is a drawing of Project 113. A design from the mid 1930's for a very high speed torpedo destroyer. Capable of 38kts and armed with 2x2 now 4.7" guns and 2x5(!) TTs. Now, it should be known that these may or may not be DP main guns, and her estimated displacement was only around 1600 tonnes. But even so, I could easily see this ship climb higher on torpedo strength alone and/or with some kind of refit. Bearing that in mind, I'd prefer the real Greek ship to the paper Spanish one but this ship could work up at tier VII. Speaking of which...

(Poland) Grom/ Huragan-class

<i>Grom</i> 1939

Yup, this again. Only now I don't really have the N-class ship to fall back on. That being said,  there is still one optional LL DD that I can theoretically call upon:

(Yugoslavia) Kotor-class

<i>Kotor</i> 1965

These were Ex- W-class ships handed over to the Yugoslavs in the mid 1950s. The main armament was still just 4x1 4.7" guns but in high(er) angle mounts, so theoretically it could shoot at aircraft? It also gets 2x4 torpedoes and the usual western AAA compliment. Not a bad ship in and of itself, but when you start to compare it to the Proj. 113 above, suddenly moving that up a tier starts to make much more sense.  And that's still 3 guns less than Grom! However tier VII shapes up, mercifully tiers VIII-X are relatively straightforward! And are all paper(ish). Starting with tier VIII:

Imagen

Welcome readers, to Project 115. A large, gunboat DD that is essentially the inverse of what 113 was. Here, instead of getting 4 guns and 10 torpedoes, you get double the guns and half the torpedoes! Top speed was supposed to be 37 kts and around 2600 tonnes of displacement. These should be the exact same mountings as on 113, just more. Truth be told, having the 113 in the lineup, even as an alternate is difficult to see when confronted with Spain's high tier ships. They are going to be large, gunboat-y types with more limited torpedo armament, so even if 113 was in somewhere it'd be a massive shift in playstyle which is why I'd be reluctant to put it in in place of other ships, especially other existing ones. As for tier IX:

14875037331_10d16527af_b.thumb.jpg.70cade9d1034a17eb3c13cd4c80571f7.jpg

Good ol' Project 155. I.E: what the Oquendo-class was originally supposed to be... except not quite. The drawing you see above is her from the 1940's with 8x2 10.5cm guns of German design. Later these were changed to a new 4.7" gun in a fully enclosed, fully DP mounting developed in Spain. Still 8x2 and still the odd torpedo arrangement you see above. I also had this in my original submission and it is still the only non Fletcher option for European destroyers thus far. And finally, we get to the end with:

Imagen

This rather attractive looking design is Project 148A. (Yes there was a just 148 version, I'll get to that). This ship was based on the hull design of the Mogador-class, which sounds strange until you realize that copying designs from the French during the war was a rather 'in vogue' thing to do in Spain. After all, the Oquendo's hull is based on the Le Hardi-class. Anyway, the ship is armed with the same automatic, DP twin mounts as the Oquendos but she does get more torpedoes (4x2, two on either side of the beam). By contrast the original earlier design (the 148) had the older mounts of the 115, and 2x4 TTs on the centerline (maybe?). It's also unclear if that ship was based on Mogador or not, but it's this ship that we have design schematics and blueprints for so that's what we're using. 

Overall, Spain has a pretty solid line up of ships and with a little help from some friends, a perfectly cromulent alternative line up for the European tree. Interestingly enough, this may not even be the whole story! As I mentioned, the long, drawn out development cycle of the Oquendo-class lends itself to premiumification, as does (in my opinion) the Proj. 113 as a fun torpedo answer to the Swedish side of the tree! Then there's the Italians, with whom we know quite a bit about their plans for large capital ships and cruisers but have yet to find any information pertaining to whether or not Italian derived DDs were ever on the table. I'd sure love to find out though! As always, comments and suggestions are welcome!

Now, about those Dutch destroyers...

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There is still potential for 2 mixed EU DD lines, in addition to one Dutch and a full spanish line+split. 

spain-1.thumb.png.6ea2f3752216b8de11345e5e3257e1d1.png       

1574096838_shipproposals-1.thumb.png.d7d9b7e2574bb6b146be407bd1aae01d.png

 

(slightly older version, but you get the idea).

 

and yes, i'm absolutely mad about the Dutch mid tier cruisers

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Kingpin61 said:

There is still potential for 2 mixed EU DD lines, in addition to one Dutch and a full spanish line+split. 

spain-1.thumb.png.6ea2f3752216b8de11345e5e3257e1d1.png      

 

and yes, i'm absolutely mad about the Dutch mid tier cruisers

 

 

Am I understanding that correctly? You have a gunboat v. torp boat split for the Spanish DDs? Interesting. Also interesting are those other project numbers you have. 

 

And also, lol I did read though your dissertation on the wrongness of the Dutch cruiser modeling. Very informative stuff!

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26 minutes ago, Trophy_Wench said:

Am I understanding that correctly? You have a gunboat v. torp boat split for the Spanish DDs? Interesting. Also interesting are those other project numbers you have. 

 

And also, lol I did read though your dissertation on the wrongness of the Dutch cruiser modeling. Very informative stuff!

Well, I can't take credit for that- i was going to write something similar, but the local Dutchman on my discord, Sanglune, beat me to it- and wrote it far more thoroughly than i'd have.

In regards to the Spanish DDs, the SECN (which was definitely not just vickers, yarrow, and john brown in a trenchcoat) designed a lot of ships - heck, the only reason people complain about "paper russian ships" is because the Spaniards haven't made it in game yet. However, that level of design work also gives a far amount of material to work with in terms of line creation.

Spain should (and will, if the info in .gameparams is to be believed) get her own tree like the Netherlands, and that still leaves plenty of room for mixed EU lines, as the image shows.

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I agree with the Spanish nation own tech tree.

 

I feel that the greek Thiria/Aetos class (former San Luis/Wild Beast classes) can reach tier III:

unknown.png

  • 1912: 4x1 102/50 + 4x1 533 
  • 1924-5: 4x1 102/50 + 2x3 533

Guns are american Bethlehem, not british.

 

About the portuguese Douro/columbian Antioquia in PANAM we can use the real modernized configuration, so there will be no problem with elite aesthetic.

 

About the spanish Churruca/argentine Cervantes we don´t need it in PANAM. We have the Mendoza class and we can use it with real modernized configuration.

 

Also about the spanish Álava class/former argentine Liniers we cannot yet determine what its final configuration was according to the 1943 plan, but it is surely not similar to the completed Álava from 1951 or the modernized Álava from 1962.

Edited by COLDOWN
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Interesting stuff @COLDOWN! If the modernized version of the Aetos-class were to be included, then yes I can see her jump to tier III which would make a nice alternative to the Huesca. However, in her original configuration I'd still have her at tier II.

 

As for the Churucca/ Douro/ Alava options, I would agree that if a full Spanish tech tree is made available, then I'd be a non-issue. But I will still take it into consideration for my combined line since as much as I am happy to defer to you, @Talleyrand@Fr05ty's expertise on issues LATAM line related, you never know what WG will do to make an official line!

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This line seems really interesting.  Especially the spanish boats in top tier. 

What do you think about the Regele Ferdinand fir tier 5?

Also the Marasty can work for a premiun 

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2 hours ago, Talleyrand said:

This line seems really interesting.  Especially the spanish boats in top tier. 

What do you think about the Regele Ferdinand fir tier 5?

Also the Marasty can work for a premiun 

I think tier V or VI would work just fine for the Regele Ferdinand-class ships. The only reason I don't have her in this line up is because I believe she could be used in a 3rd line of ships based around other Italian and/ or French designs ( we'll gloss over the fact that RF was based on the Scott-class). Branching off of the Huesca I had at tier III, it could go something like:

IV: Vifor/ Melilla or Beograd- class

V: Either Witcher-class or RF ( possibly some Italian made DDs from Turkey/ Greece?)

VI: Either RF, possibly Vasilefs Georgios I-class if it can't be fit in the other line or Spain really can into tech tree? Maybe Dubrovnik? But I really think that should be a premium.

VII: ...I don't know yet

VIII: Split

IX: Thyella

X: I got nothing yet.

I know that this line kinda skews back into American DDs but I just don't have enough info to find alternative high tier DDs from any other small European navies. Yeah, there are a few Soviet ships but it's all Skorry/ Ognevoi types and they aren't anything special.

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8 hours ago, Trophy_Wench said:

V: Either Witcher-class or RF ( possibly some Italian made DDs from Turkey/ Greece?)

VII: ...I don't know yet

VIII: Split

Wicher, as a near copy of the French Bourasque class (T4 in game), would fit far better at that tier.

Personally, I do not believe Split in any of her 3 forms is T8 material. T7 is the maximum, and that's in her original form.

Recall that Thyella has similar armament to the T8 Kidd post transfer. Where you tier her is between you and gimmicks, of course.

There are some Swedish designs that could fill out your high tiers if you are willing to add Swedes into a mixed line (i tried to avoid it until it became inevitable)

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1 hour ago, Kingpin61 said:

Wicher, as a near copy of the French Bourasque class (T4 in game), would fit far better at that tier.

Personally, I do not believe Split in any of her 3 forms is T8 material. T7 is the maximum, and that's in her original form.

Recall that Thyella has similar armament to the T8 Kidd post transfer. Where you tier her is between you and gimmicks, of course.

There are some Swedish designs that could fill out your high tiers if you are willing to add Swedes into a mixed line (i tried to avoid it until it became inevitable)

 

9 hours ago, Trophy_Wench said:

I think tier V or VI would work just fine for the Regele Ferdinand-class ships. The only reason I don't have her in this line up is because I believe she could be used in a 3rd line of ships based around other Italian and/ or French designs ( we'll gloss over the fact that RF was based on the Scott-class). Branching off of the Huesca I had at tier III, it could go something like:

IV: Vifor/ Melilla or Beograd- class

V: Either Witcher-class or RF ( possibly some Italian made DDs from Turkey/ Greece?)

VI: Either RF, possibly Vasilefs Georgios I-class if it can't be fit in the other line or Spain really can into tech tree? Maybe Dubrovnik? But I really think that should be a premium.

VII: ...I don't know yet

VIII: Split

IX: Thyella

X: I got nothing yet.

I know that this line kinda skews back into American DDs but I just don't have enough info to find alternative high tier DDs from any other small European navies. Yeah, there are a few Soviet ships but it's all Skorry/ Ognevoi types and they aren't anything special.

You also have a literal crap-ton of transferred Sumner-class, Fletcher-class, Gearing-class, and ex-RN DDs with wide variety of potential playstyles, including ASW, gunboat-style, and torpedoes-style. I would go with a lean towards 'Swedish=guns/scouts', 'Spanish=torps/capping/scouting', 'Polish='gunboat/capping/brawling', 'Greek/Norwegian/Eastern Europe='ASW'.

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8 hours ago, spmdougherty said:

 

You also have a literal crap-ton of transferred Sumner-class, Fletcher-class, Gearing-class, and ex-RN DDs with wide variety of potential playstyles, including ASW, gunboat-style, and torpedoes-style. I would go with a lean towards 'Swedish=guns/scouts', 'Spanish=torps/capping/scouting', 'Polish='gunboat/capping/brawling', 'Greek/Norwegian/Eastern Europe='ASW'.

The American stuff, with only a couple of very specific exceptions, are basically non-starters and I don't seriously consider them. The reason is because of the 3 nations that used them primarily (Greece, Turkey and Spain) many we MDAP transfers post FRAM reconstruction, where they were turned into dedicated ASW platforms without the ASuW armament (ie: torpedoes) they were originally built with. 

As for the placement of those other ships @Kingpin61, I consider this 3rd branch to be very WIP. In fact, I think this is the first time I've really put it on the forums. Witcher in particular I'd have no qualms about putting down at IV except that Beograd exists and I can easily see the Witcher being given her planned rearmament to upiter her, which would also have the effect of aligning armaments across the board. But again, nothing about this line is set in stone to me, and yes I'd love to see those other Swedish designs!

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I'd say that you should try and do this line without using the Spanish as they're basically their own thing (and from datamines we can surmise that Spain will be their own nation much like the Dutch are now). Also the Spanish have a sort of evolving design philosophy that can be exploited to make their own consistent line (just like the Swedish & Dutch had).

If you manage to do that 3rd line, I think you're going to have a line design that will stand the test of WG's next nation release (and probably the last nation to be stand alone) which should be Spain. It might be hard to thread a proper line without the Spanish & Dutch ships at the higher tiers, but it's a fun challenge!

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Thanks @Fr05ty! As I mentioned, this is far from it's final form. In fact one of the way I've been playing around with this "3rd line" as it were is to have a A-H--> Yugoslav line and then use other "pan-Balkan" lets call them, ships to fill in gaps. For instance, coming off Tátra we'd have something like this:

III: A-H 1000t follow up DD design (drawing by @Tzoli of course)

1000ton Torpedo Boat Design

IV: Aforementioned Beograd-class

V: Probably RF here? Again could also throw in the Witcher-class

VI: So here is where I start to have some issues. I could choose Dubrovnik and the follow up with the original design for Split. However, I don't like that since the guns then scale up to 14cm and nobody else was doing large caliber guns like that on DDs that wasn't France. So it'd be an awkward playstyle shift with nothing to follow up on from tier VIII onwards.  So as far as I'm concerned, Dubrovnik would be a premium and I'd likely end up putting the Vasilefs Georgios I-class here.

VII: Here you'd probably end up with Grom, maybe Split again if like @Kingpin61 said she can't make it to VIII in her final form? 

VIII: Pretty much I just put Split here in her 1958 form. My intent here would be to focus on a more gunboat, ASW focused platform with fewer torpedoes since she and any applicable Fletchers that follow up would only have 1x5 TTs available. Useful but not the focus of the line. Which is similar to what I had planned above with the mixed Spanish line. But with those it's more of an inverse of the Swedes. But now you run into a brick wall because unless there were some other DD projects that Romania, Greece, Poland...Bulgaria maybe? Or Yugoslavia came up with during that time that I'm not aware of that's all I have. But Kingpin does have some info on some alt. high tier Swedish design projects that might be worth looking into. And if that really is all we can draw from, well... so be it!

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On 4/12/2021 at 11:41 AM, Kingpin61 said:

spain-1.thumb.png.6ea2f3752216b8de11345e5e3257e1d1.png       

Do you have a thread or link with more details about this Spanish tree?

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On 7/14/2021 at 7:21 AM, Lord_Magus said:

Do you have a thread or link with more details about this Spanish tree?

I've quit the game at this point so i do not have a thread. However, feel free to check out/copy my Master document which has assorted links for my Spanish and EU trees which will remain without a writeup, as well as every ship writeup i've ever written (which are mostly all deleted now, thanks WG).

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1 minute ago, Kingpin61 said:

I've quit the game at this point so i do not have a thread. However, feel free to check out/copy my Master document which has assorted links for my Spanish and EU trees which will remain without a writeup, as well as every ship writeup i've ever written (which are mostly all deleted now, thanks WG).

Thanks. I haven't entirely quit yet. (Though I barely play anymore.) I actually spend quite a bit more time theorycrafting about the game than actually playing it.

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Just now, Lord_Magus said:

Thanks. I haven't entirely quit yet. (Though I barely play anymore.) I actually spend quite a bit more time theorycrafting about the game than actually playing it.

I was like that for a while, but then i got kicked from privateer, so i finally uninstalled lol

 

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52 minutes ago, Lord_Magus said:

Thanks. I haven't entirely quit yet. (Though I barely play anymore.) I actually spend quite a bit more time theorycrafting about the game than actually playing it.

 

50 minutes ago, Kingpin61 said:

I was like that for a while, but then i got kicked from privateer, so i finally uninstalled lol

 

Sad yo hear that. You  were here since the dinausaurs

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13 hours ago, Talleyrand said:

 

Sad yo hear that. You  were here since the dinausaurs

Yeah, took em 6 years but i finally gave up on the game improving. Obviously i still hang around the community and the historical section, but as for the game itself, eh.

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20 hours ago, Kingpin61 said:

Yeah, took em 6 years but i finally gave up on the game improving. Obviously i still hang around the community and the historical section, but as for the game itself, eh.

Oh, I'm sorry to hear that @Kingpin61. I am heartened to see you sticking around for us theorycafters though!

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@Trophy_Wench there are a few images broken links

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