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HeidiAngel

Question on Quality of Italian Ammo

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Hello Admirals, Captains, Commanders etc!

I have seen many posts and read many complaints about the Ammunition of the Italian BB line. When the line came out I was super excited because Dad has a Giulio Cesare while I don't but I could get the tier 6 Andrea Doria which is in fact extremely similar to the GC. [Face turns to sad frown] Needless to say she is a fine looking ship with good speed and turns rather quickly but her guns are horrible no matter which ammo you use. Yes once in a great while rng smiles at you and you land a decent hit but it very far between salvos. The range does not matter I have found. Far away, up close it's the same. The shells all just fly out of the gun and each yolo's on it's merry way towards only the Lord knows where. I aimed and fired at a BB at 14k, all of my shells missed by a wide Margene but to my surprise 1 hit the other BB sailing BEHIND the BB i was shooting at! That's just crazzzyy!

So I was doing some research about Italian ammo in ww2 and found the range finding of the Italians was good. The Guns were solid. The Shells however due to initial high velocity were inconstant as far as dispersion goes. Also it seems some quality control personal at Ansaldo were asleep on the job and the weight of the 12.6 and 15 inch shells were not consistent. They tried to compensate for wide dispersion by reducing shell velocity but only with a slight improvement noticed when tested. I have read about the Second Battle of Sirte in which after adjustments were made to Battleship ammo BB Littorio damaged several British Warships as her Long Range accuracy improved quite a bit.

Another question I have for Wargaming is if that's your reasoning for the Italian BB line to have poor dispersion then why does the Italian Cruiser ammo { 6 and 8 inch } have darn good accuracy as they were made in the same factory and also have a high velocity rate? Also the guns in the cruisers turrets were placed very close to each other and when fired together that closeness caused dispersion issues. I read the Italians were forced to stagger their fire from 1 gun from A turret and 1 gun from B turret then fire the other gun from A and B turrets so as not to cause severe dispersion. Point being to me is that your being inconsistent in your thinking about historical accuracy when talking about Italian BB's and Cruisers. You give a pass to one and severely punish the other.

Now, I am no expert on ammunition, range finding etc etc and do not want to give an impression I know everything about the subject because I sure don't. They don't teach this stuff in my History class. Lol. But I am reading about it and learning all I can. Tons of info to absorb. I can't ask my Favorite Captain [Cap], He has trouble deciding to use HE or AP...hahahaha. Anyway those are my thoughts and I think the suggestion Dad had about adjusting the sigma to 1.7 on Italian BB's is fair. It won't make them op but it will give them some more ability to be competitive.

I don't have the tier 9 or 10 so I cannot comment on them with any knowledge but the tier 5, 6 and 7 need some some help please. 

Hope your all safe and healthy. Good Luck and Good Smooshing!:cap_win::cap_win::cap_win:

 

 

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I think the reasoning for Italian BB dispersion was fear that SAP would be way to strong. However, it doesnt make sense to me considering the existence of many ships in game. Kremlin AP is more devestating to all classes simply because of the velocity, weight, and accuracy combined yet it still remains as is. I cant imagine what reasoning outside of that and maybe some of the history you used. However, that doesn't excuse lack luster tech tree lines.

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11 minutes ago, Skuggsja said:

I think the reasoning for Italian BB dispersion was fear that SAP would be way to strong. However, it doesnt make sense to me considering the existence of many ships in game. Kremlin AP is more devestating to all classes simply because of the velocity, weight, and accuracy combined yet it still remains as is. I cant imagine what reasoning outside of that and maybe some of the history you used. However, that doesn't excuse lack luster tech tree lines.

Kremlin only really has good dispersion up close, at range it falls behind other BB's. Also, AP actually requires somewhat careful aiming, whereas SAP barely needs an angle for it to be able to pen. Think about how it would feel if HE did more damage per pen than a normal AP pen, and the only tradeoff was that it wasn't very effective head-on. That is why BB SAP needs to be so shotgunny. It also doesn't help that WG seems to be making changes to balance the tier ten, but then applying those same nerfs across the whole line, regardless if the ship needs it. 

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Ammo quality is not factored in but the Italians did have ammunition quality issues as did the IJN. The IJN also had problems with the Type 93 Long Lance where it would porpoise through the water, it had trouble holding depth, in long runs.

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The problem with balance is it started with SAP initial tests on the BBs. It was deadly. Then it had to be nerfed on DDs, but BB players hated that idea. WG never adjusted for the AP dispersion to be consistent either because it is bound by SAP rules too. Since technically it is a different shell, WG should have allowed more accuracy. But that is a two tiered dispersion mechanic and is hard to do. WG could have compromised with secondary guns so BB captains had something useful, but yet again it was overlooked.

The main change was the SAP. WG seemed to have left the ships dispersion crap because such high velocity is dangerous with any accuracy. 

That held true in real. Too fast and it does not spin the shell enough to rotate for proper ballistic consistency. That is why the US purposely went heavy and added more powder. Velocity only was enough to get optimal rotation of shell. 

Most Navy tests in other nations do not be as thorough or plan to have that kind of parameter. 

While BBs in Europe are of various caliber, they have a consistent engagement range which is 3/4s of its maximum due to inclement weather or armor to prevent plunging fire.  

You can fire at that max range, just don't expect much unless the target is sailing really straight with RNG awarding you a tight set. 

Italian BBs and cruisers fire high velocity. That implies flat trajectory at close range and floaty at max. At max, the weight of the shell with velocity might not be sufficient to pen some deck armor. 

A tip to try is use sequential fire rather than always shotgun even at close quarters. Because if you do get one shot that sails out,  then you have at least one turret close to reloading. 

If the ship has speed, then use it to outrun DDS and let the secbat deal, with mains to take a few shots. 

If you turn well, then use that to your advantage by baiting torps and cut in fast. The looks on cruisers and DD players when you do that is priceless.

It may look like a Giulio Cesare, but it still needs to angle. Never give anyone an easy shot. 

Good luck

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55 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

Ammo quality is not factored in but the Italians did have ammunition quality issues as did the IJN. The IJN also had problems with the Type 93 Long Lance where it would porpoise through the water, it had trouble holding depth, in long runs.

Isn't ammo quality represented in-game by the Krupp factor of the ammo? I'm speaking of the quality of the armor piercing material, not the propellant. 

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Just now, HamAndCheez said:

Isn't ammo quality represented in-game by the Krupp factor of the ammo? I'm speaking of the quality of the armor piercing material, not the propellant. 

There are some ammo qualities that are factored but not the flaws that many if not most countries ammunition had.

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8 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

There are some ammo qualities that are factored but not the flaws that many if not most countries ammunition had.

Some ammo is cheap. RN CL line. Other than Mino(although it gets shot a lot), it be a miracle how some players survive in those ships. Squishy, squashy, tea-baggy, and the chip damage is annoying like a fart in a double decker at Piccadilly. 

WG does factor some ammo issues. But not all the data is translated to the game due to balance. Otherwise all KGV class BBs would jam. 

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