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handybilly

Tweaking captain skills in the future.

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Why would they just not set up a data base to record frequency of use and keep slightly tweaking under utilized skills until players chose to use them more often. So for example, if priority target (best skill I know of) is used over vigilance (meh) by a ten to one ratio, then come next patch give vigilance a buff. Keep doing this with every patch until overall use of any particular skill reaches some sort of parity with the others at it's level. Almost any skill is attractive if it is strong enough.  I do realize that some skills need to be gutted and redone. However,  it seem like over time this would help create a variety of playstyles.  I am not sure that dead eye needs to leave but drop it to 8% next patch and if it is still too popular just keep dropping it until players start to chose other skills. Frankly they should be tweaking captain skills with every patch. Am I off base with this?

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If our host's intent was to help expand game quality instead of exploiting this change for more revenue, then a regular progression of changes makes sense to keep the market happy......   That wasn't the intent of the Skill Tree Change;  it was a Forced Economy Devaluation to reset the Revenue generation; to,  force profit by degrading existing skill with the facade of players having more options to customize......  And, in reality as I see it, you have more options that actually give you choices BUT, this entire change devalues your overall ability to generate "player in game value"; AND, requires you to play even more games for less to earn the same as you did before you have superfluous choices......   And, that is why "Dead Eye" is being removed:  it exceeded the revenue capabilities in the PVP meta that exceeded player allowed revenue generation !!!!  So, it had to go and be replaced by something that is a "negative revenue generator"..... 

This is my opinion and no, I have little or no desire to crunch numbers for a simple game.....to "prove anything"....    But, history repeats itself as I have said before; and, that I have provided a comparison game sample illustrate what this change paradigm has done to other shooting games....  My example was Mechwarrior Online.........which, after it's Skill Tree Change, within one year simply imploded.....  Entire clans left the game and it is a ghost town that was sold recently and the new owners want to "re-set" the skills back to where they were BEFORE players were given choices that meant nothing positive !  Small market, strong IP visibility only works if the players have first world quality and dynamic battlespace mechanics that allow them to 1) have fun; and, 2) use "skill" and aggressive weapons/movement/longer ranges with accuracy to make even more profit as you get better.....    That new corporation wants to revert the game back to where they had an eSports program with a yearly convention.   To do that, they recognize the game has to be "re-buffed" back to where that eSports paradigm worked......   WG, food for thought........

History is a funny thing.........because, it's easier to take what someone else did years ago than it is to create something new........

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I see something in what you are saying. I just pushed my "first" commander into the 20 skill bracket. Now only 700,000 to reach 21?  This was a horrible idea. Totally mercenary on WG's behalf.

Edited by handybilly
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11 minutes ago, handybilly said:

I see something in what you are saying. I just pushed my "first" commander into the 20 skill bracket. Now only 700,000 to reach 21?  This was a horrible idea. Totally mercenary on WG's behalf.

Yep.  A pretty common way to create revenue and increase throughput which generates profit.....  They spend little to nothing and we have to double our efforts to actually achieve less that before the change.....perfect (unless we all leave...)

The down side is that in most cases, this tactic drives off all of those players a smart corporation really want to keep in the game!: players whom will spend real money and their time to have fun and to improve their experiences........FUN is a difficult metric and usually requires "innovation" to keep first world quality game enhancements from bankrupting the corporation;........a, fine line to travel on and some very strong Corporate leadership is necessary to walk that line........  Look at LoL, WoW and the other NACE sanctioned games if you want to see "how a first world game corporation" does exactly ^^^^^^.  It's not for the faint of heart !!!

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What makes you think they're not doing something like this OP? Sounds like exactly the kind of spreadsheet balancing WG loves. It just takes time to collect data, process it, and then work the changes into the release schedule. Also it's probably simpler for WG to release a bunch of skill changes at once instead of tweaking things every patch. I have no doubt they're tracking skills use and other related stats. Things just take time to actually release. I think most people have no idea how long it takes for changes to go from "yes we should do this" to actually releasing live. So if a problem is identified, assuming it's not gamebreaking, it's going to take a few months to find a fix, test the fix, and roll it out.

Also for your Deadeye example the issue with that particular skill is the actual dispersion number doesn't matter. People just see that they get better dispersion at long range so they go to long range. I'm betting most people couldn't tell the difference between a deadeye ship and a none deadeye ship in blind test. That didn't stop people from camping the backlines. That skill was more a perception issue than actual gameplay change.

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If WG does anything it will be to drive up revenue and damn the torpedoes full speed ahead.

In other words if the game dies so what. "We are WarGaming" .

Our fearless leader will be anointed the greatest in all the world.

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2 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

What makes you think they're not doing something like this OP? Sounds like exactly the kind of spreadsheet balancing WG loves. It just takes time to collect data, process it, and then work the changes into the release schedule. Also it's probably simpler for WG to release a bunch of skill changes at once instead of tweaking things every patch. I have no doubt they're tracking skills use and other related stats. Things just take time to actually release. I think most people have no idea how long it takes for changes to go from "yes we should do this" to actually releasing live. So if a problem is identified, assuming it's not gamebreaking, it's going to take a few months to find a fix, test the fix, and roll it out.

Also for your Deadeye example the issue with that particular skill is the actual dispersion number doesn't matter. People just see that they get better dispersion at long range so they go to long range. I'm betting most people couldn't tell the difference between a deadeye ship and a none deadeye ship in blind test. That didn't stop people from camping the backlines. That skill was more a perception issue than actual gameplay change.

Perception was an issue but if there wasn't hard data that made them want to change it they wouldn't have. That hard data is probably something other than BB's hitting too well at long range which is the perception. Just look at the CV hate which is also perception and there has been no change.

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4 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

Perception was an issue but if there wasn't hard data that made them want to change it they wouldn't have. That hard data is probably something other than BB's hitting too well at long range which is the perception. Just look at the CV hate which is also perception and there has been no change.

The metric is "profit..."  It has nothing to do with the actual game mechanics...!  Carriers are still selling.....!  Dead Eye caused a lot of people to reject PVP and that hurt the bottom line; as well as, exceeding projected player revenue....  You see, the entire skill tree change was meant to "devalue" the economy and degrade individual earnings no matter what skills you picked.  Dead Eye was a threat to both and that is why it is leaving....... 

Perception isn't a consideration:  earnings are (on both sides of the equation.....and, both exceeded the revenue projections and that is a why it is leaving......)  :cap_book:

Edited by Asym_KS

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7 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

What makes you think they're not doing something like this OP? Sounds like exactly the kind of spreadsheet balancing WG loves. It just takes time to collect data, process it, and then work the changes into the release schedule. Also it's probably simpler for WG to release a bunch of skill changes at once instead of tweaking things every patch. I have no doubt they're tracking skills use and other related stats. Things just take time to actually release. I think most people have no idea how long it takes for changes to go from "yes we should do this" to actually releasing live. So if a problem is identified, assuming it's not gamebreaking, it's going to take a few months to find a fix, test the fix, and roll it out.

I think they MAY be doing this on a much smaller scale than the OP is asking about.  When a choice is so overwhelming (deadeye), they change that.  The smaller ones (priority over vigilance for example) means nothing to them.  Why?  Because the constant evaluating and rebalancing takes time that costs money and adds no $$$ to the bank account.

As for the cost to promote to 21 points, here are my own numbers:

I am a coop player, with premium time and since I am grinding 8 DD lines since January (6 now), I run all 5 economic flags.  I play enough daily to get my 3 daily crates and usually no more than that.  None of my DD commanders are 21 points, so it is all the 5% ECXP that I get (since most of my commanders are NOT 21, almost 100% of all my ECXP is of the 5% variety).  I am closing in on 800k ECXP.  I should be able to promote my best DD Captain (level 19.5) by the end of the month.  SO almost 4 months to get ONE commander from 19 to 21.  A lot of my other commanders are in the 14-19 point range.  I will get 2-3 commanders to 21 per YEAR.

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27 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

The metric is "profit..."  It has nothing to do with the actual game mechanics...!  Carriers are still selling.....!  Dead Eye caused a lot of people to reject PVP and that hurt the bottom line; as well as, exceeding projected player revenue....  You see, the entire skill tree change was meant to "devalue" the economy and degrade individual earnings no matter what skills you picked.  Dead Eye was a threat to both and that is why it is leaving....... 

Perception isn't a consideration:  earnings are (on both sides of the equation.....and, both exceeded the revenue projections and that is a why it is leaving......)  :cap_book:

BB's are the most played ship type which would imply that they would want to keep them happy. There must be something else in the data that they did not like.

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1 hour ago, BrushWolf said:

BB's are the most played ship type which would imply that they would want to keep them happy. There must be something else in the data that they did not like.

You are correct, BB are played a lot.....  But, the metric is profit.   Bottom Line Up Front:  Dead Eye isn't profitable; that's why it's leaving.....  

IMO, Dead Eye caused two things:  1) some players left PVP and were people whom our host pays attention to; and, 2) there was a fear that Dead Eye was going to/was change(ing) the meta; and, I'd bet dollars to Donuts, the profit projections were dismal.   Remember, the goal of the Skill Tree Change was to make anything we do "less effective" so that we have to work harder to make the same amounts before the Skill Change........forcing us to "play more games..."  Dead Eye was driving people out of PVP (the opposite of the economy change's strategic goal of a forced increase of throughput;) and, Dead Eye was effective enough to alter the meta baseline and that scared those in charge.....  (would Dead Eye cause meta issues in Clan Battles or eSports events?)

Let's test this assumption:  Ask your self:  are carriers allowed in all modes of play?   No, they aren't:   so they are "controlled" and balanced profitability wise by access.   And, they are still selling !!!  So.....nothing to worry about.

Dead Eye is allowed anywhere and Dead Eye is seriously disrupting profitability it seems;.........and, that wasn't gonna work for the spreadsheet warriors whom dreamt up the Skill Tree Change...!  Adding speed does nothing......perfect !

That something else:   some very smart players were profitably using Dead Eye !   I never tinkered with it because I don't play PVP.........but, if you "read between the lines a little" these past few weeks, there were a lot of PVP players that were ecstatic (and, by their accounts winning with it) or leaving PVP or the game.....  Both, would cause Dead Eye to leave.  The skill tree change is designed to make PVP less profitable; and, a skill that makes making money in that mode easier simply couldn't be tolerated.......ergo, it's gone and replaced with more "fluff....."      What else is there????  Follow the money.  Everything else is fluff.....

Of course, I am guessing and could be completely wrong.........  Yep, it was making some of them happy........and, that means earning more than was anticipated and caused a TILT.....  Just a guess.

Edited by Asym_KS
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Just now, Asym_KS said:

You are correct, BB are played a lot.....  But, the metric is profit.   Bottom Line Up Front:  Dead Eye isn't profitable; that's why it's leaving.....  

IMO, Dead Eye caused two things:  1) some players left PVP and were people whom our host pays attention to; and, 2) there was a fear that Dead Eye was going to/was change(ing) the meta; and, I'd bet dollars to Donuts, the profit projections were dismal.   Remember, the goal of the Skill Tree Change was to make anything we do "less effective" so that we have to work harder to make the same amounts before the Skill Change........forcing us to "play more games..."  Dead Eye was driving people out of PVP (the opposite of the economy change's strategic goal of a forced increase of throughput;) and, Dead Eye was effective enough to alter the meta baseline and that scared those in charge.....  (would Dead Eye cause meta issues in Clan Battles or eSports events?)

Let's test this assumption:  Ask your self:  are carriers allowed in all modes of play?   No, they aren't:   so they are "controlled" and balanced profitability wise by access.   And, they are still selling !!!  So.....nothing to worry about.

Dead Eye is allowed anywhere and Dead Eye is seriously disrupting profitability it seems;.........and, that wasn't gonna work for the spreadsheet warriors whom dreamt up the Skill Tree Change...!  Adding speed does nothing......perfect !

That something else:   some very smart players were profitably using Dead Eye !   I never tinkered with it because I don't play PVP.........but, if you "read between the lines a little" these past few weeks, there were a lot of PVP players that were ecstatic (and, by their accounts winning with it) or leaving PVP or the game.....  Both, would cause Dead Eye to leave.  The skill tree change is designed to make PVP less profitable; and, a skill that makes making money in that mode easier simply couldn't be tolerated.......ergo, it's gone and replaced with more "fluff....."      What else is there????  Follow the money.  Everything else is fluff.....

I never tried to say that their decisions are not profit based and that exiting was something in the data they didn't like. I do wish they had come up with a better replacement though because the speed boost is pretty meh and counter to how a BB moving up to support the DD's & cruisers, yes they do exist, want to move which is typically half speed except for the US standards so they don't get spotted.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

I never tried to say that their decisions are not profit based and that exiting was something in the data they didn't like. I do wish they had come up with a better replacement though because the speed boost is pretty meh and counter to how a BB moving up to support the DD's & cruisers, yes they do exist, want to move which is typically half speed except for the US standards so they don't get spotted.

I know, I just wanted to add what I am guessing is going on.  And yes, speed is pure NVA fluff and the carrot was the free respec for those whom lose DE.....

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5 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

I know, I just wanted to add what I am guessing is going on.  And yes, speed is pure NVA fluff and the carrot was the free respec for those whom lose DE.....

They could have changed it to must be undetected and increase the gun bloom time to exceed the reload speed by say at least 5 seconds.That would have added a definite negative to the skill which it was missing.

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10 hours ago, AJTP89 said:

I'm betting most people couldn't tell the difference between a deadeye ship and a none deadeye ship in blind test. That didn't stop people from camping the backlines. That skill was more a perception issue than actual gameplay change.

Lol.

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