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Sigma For Italian BB's

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WG, You really need to compromise with the sigma of the Italian BB line. I understand GC is OP at tier 5 but killing the sigma on the rest of the Italian BB line is just over compensation. 1.5 Sigma is just disgracefully on these ships. I am not suggesting it be raised to compare to GC's 1.9 but 1.7 would seem fair. I mean the tier 6 Andrea Doria is a floating outhouse even when up close. The best players will have decent games in here but it's a struggle all the time. Give them a fighting chance. And the SAP ammo seems to be a joke unless the situation is perfect. I hope some changes are made.

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The Italian BB line appears to mostly garbage with only a few gems in the mix.  I have found the BB SAP to be unreliable as it provides no advantage against DDs and does not perform as well as AP on other BBs.  Sure, it works well against broadside cruisers, but so does AP.  I don't really mind, however, as I rarely use HE when playing any BB, but calling SAP ammo fair compensation for terrible sigma is not a good argument.   

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6 minutes ago, PrairiePlayer said:

The Italian BB line appears to mostly garbage with only a few gems in the mix.  I have found the BB SAP to be unreliable as it provides no advantage against DDs and does not perform as well as AP on other BBs.  Sure, it works well against broadside cruisers, but so does AP.  I don't really mind, however, as I rarely use HE when playing any BB, but calling SAP ammo fair compensation for terrible sigma is not a good argument.   

I agree as the damage on a DD is capped when using SAP rounds. I don't use it much.

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SAP can really be great as seen with Italian cruisers and the occasional good hit from Italian battleships. That being said, the Italian battleship accuracy values are too low. 

Though I havent played many games in them, I was able to get a 20k hit with SAP on the superstructure of battleships angled against other players. That was twice though. The remainder of the time a bow on ship can completely negate most damage from SAP.

Cruisers can take hard hits too but again you have to actually hit more than one shell. If a cruiser is bow or stern on to you when you fire, you'll be lucky to get one hit that does 3k damage. 

Though I understand that SAP has massive damage potential, I feel WG was so afraid of what it could do they oververfed these ships and there is no compensation. Dont get me wrong, they should not be super accurate by any means but the low hit rate is a joke at this point.

If they think that SAP is too strong for battleships main armament they should give it to the secondaries. If Slava, Ohio, Georgia, Thunderer, and Conquerer get to exist as is, I dont understand why the Italians can feel slightly better.

Edited by Skuggsja

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I asked for a explaintion of this here "Sigma." and none has been offered.

There are two Italian BB's I like well enough. The Carico in Operations, Specifically Narai. I have attemted her in current operations and into Coop itself but she is  swept away when you realise that your Ship is not reliable in battle. A glass Jawed.

The one GEM that I have enjoyed the hell out of since yesterday evening is the Lepento. Shes a little bit lightweight deep inside. However if guided carefully in Random, Ranked (Of all things) and so on against other humans she can fight. Just make sure there are no Musashis about. That specific BB can crush the Lepento like a beer can slammed down at a frat house. Accompanied by cackles of laugher and joy at your losses.

Lepento does one thing specifically that none of the other Italian BB's could do. Shoot and land rounds on the enemy wherever it might be found. Ive gained the confidence now that if I need to shoot up a apartment block with the thing to go after enemies infesting it down town, I can do it. If there was such a situation to do so.

Edited by xHeavy
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38 minutes ago, xHeavy said:

I asked for a explaintion of this here "Sigma." and none has been offered.

Sigma is the tendency of the shells to group towards the center of the aim point. Higher sigma means a greater weight for the center of the aim point.

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44 minutes ago, xHeavy said:

I asked for a explaintion of this here "Sigma." and none has been offered..

 

You're welcome! :Smile_great:

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Never had many dispersion issues with Doria. Only Italian ships I’ve seen dispersion wth moments are in Francesco and Veneto, because low sigma and low barrel count. Lepanto has 1.6 sigma on 12 guns, same as Alsace and.1 more than Pommern, and I think those two ships land more hits than the 2.0 sigma Republique or 1.8 sigma Freddy. Plus the Colombo has 16guns and 1.5sigma, but quantity has an accuracy all of its own. Will Lepanto have some dispersion wth moments? Yes, every BB will probably have a moment like that at least once per battle. Will every game in an RM BB be a dispersion wth moment? Unless RNG gives you two fingers instead of the usual one, then maybe

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2 hours ago, PrairiePlayer said:

The Italian BB line appears to mostly garbage with only a few gems in the mix.  I have found the BB SAP to be unreliable as it provides no advantage against DDs and does not perform as well as AP on other BBs.  Sure, it works well against broadside cruisers, but so does AP.  I don't really mind, however, as I rarely use HE when playing any BB, but calling SAP ammo fair compensation for terrible sigma is not a good argument.   

Even with the 381mm SAP against a broadside Cruiser, if you're going for waterline shots, which is a very natural habit especially with BBs, you'll find it will fail often.

Tier VIII Vittorio Veneto's 381mm SAP has 96mm Penetration.  There are a lot of Cruisers where you can never get SAP Citadel strikes.

 

VII CL Helena & VII CA New Orleans & VIII Cleveland 127mm armor belt

VII CA Indianapolis 100mm armor belt.

VIII CA Baltimore 152mm armor belt.

VI CA Aoba:  Kind of tricky.  She only has a 76mm armor belt but a 35mm torpedo bulge covers a lot of it.  If you hit the TDS area that's 101mm and you won't Pen that with 381mm SAP.  AP would, however.

VII CA Myoko 203mm armor belt.

VIII Mogami 100mm armor belt and 27mm torpedo bulge covering a lot of it.

VIII CL Chapayev 100mm armor belt

VII CA Yorck & VIII CA Hipper 80mm armor belt + 30mm angled deck + 20-30mm Citadel torpedo bulkheads

VII CL Fiji & VIII CL Edinburgh 114mm armor belt.

VI CL Leander 100mm armor belt.

IX CL Neptune 102mm armor belt.

X CL Minotaur 101mm armor belt.

VII CA Algerie 110mm armor belt.

VIII CA Charles Martel 100mm armor belt.

 

The last tier where you see a bunch of Cruisers vulnerable to 381mm SAP Citadel hits is Tier VII and even then, as you can see, it's very spotty, as that is the tier where both CLs and CAs start getting better armor belts.  Tier VI is the last tier where most Cruisers have to worry about Battleship SAP Citadeling them.  Even Tier VI RNCL Leander, a Cruiser Line reknown for being super squishy, sports a 100mm armor belt, and every subsequent "squishy" RNCL has better than that in the line.

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I have felt since they were released that the Italian BBs give up too much for SAP; or to put it a different way, SAP is not powerful enough to warrant all the other drawbacks they get.  BB SAP would be immensely powerful if you could consistently hit what you are aiming at with multiple shells.  However the dispersion is so unreliable that full salvos against a broadside target will typically result in several shatters against the enemy's belt armor, a couple of misses, and maybe 1-2 penetrating hits.  I've heard it suggested that Italian BBs should aim for the upper belt area for a better chance at penetration, and I agree - but more often than not the shells don't hit there when I aim there.  At closer ranges this becomes less of an issue, but even hovering around their concealment range these BBs are shotguns.  I find myself leaning towards AP more and more with them because I'd rather get overpen damage than lose an entire (LONG reloading) salvo to shatters.

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2 hours ago, Skuggsja said:

If they think that SAP is too strong for battleships main armament they should give it to the secondaries.

This is EXACTLY what they should have done. Particularly with those dumb Italian HE 15mm pen secondaries that literally can't pen anything even with IFHE on. But no, SAP secondaries are coming alright....on the new premium CRUISER, Napoli. Not the Italian BBs that ACTUALLY need SAP secondaries, but the shiny new cruiser lols!

It's a complete joke. The whole Italian BB line is just lackluster....you've got poor reload times, poor range, poor accuracy, the WORST secondaries possible....Honestly, I don't really know what the strengths are of this line. SAP?....armor layout? On SOME ships, kinda sorta? They could use a little love imo...

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A thing with ITA BBs and their Sigma is that all the Tech Tree ones have the same trash 1.6 Sigma, except for the Tier X.

IV D. Alighieri 12 guns

V C. di Cavour 12 guns

VI A. Doria 10 guns

VII F.CaraccioLOLOL 8 guns

VIII V.Veneto 8 guns

IX Lepanto 12 guns

X C.Colombo 16 guns with 1.5 Sigma - Still in testing.

 

Even the more modest 8-10 gun BBs have 1.6.  FYI, the Roma that people have complained about for unreliable gunnery is a 1.8 Sigma BB.  Roma is the sister to lead ship Vittorio Veneto, both are Tier VIII, Roma has been out forever.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Yes please buff these ships WG 

Definitely need better accuracy, speed, and reload. 

Just add those that would be greeeaaaaat.

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55 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

VI CA Aoba:  Kind of tricky.  She only has a 76mm armor belt but a 35mm torpedo bulge covers a lot of it.  If you hit the TDS area that's 101mm and you won't Pen that with 381mm SAP.  AP would, however.

Juat a reminder, SAP is HE-ish. So any citadel with more then one layer of armor is immune to SAP. Hit torp bulge give is 0 damage. 

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1 hour ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

It's a complete joke. The whole Italian BB line is just lackluster.

I think the American BB split, the Italian BBs, and the German DD split all seem really lack luster. Our hope lies in the Dutch Cruisers.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

IV D. Alighieri 12 guns

V C. di Cavour 12 guns

VI A. Doria 10 guns

VII F.CaraccioLOLOL 8 guns

VIII V.Veneto 8 guns

IX Lepanto 12 guns

X C.Colombo 16 guns with 1.5 Sigma - Still in testing.

Vittorio Veneto has nine guns, does it not?

Edited by MannyD_of_The_Sea
Typo

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36 minutes ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Vittorio Veneto gas nine guns, does it not?

This is correct, Littorio-class battleships have 9 15in guns.

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4 hours ago, xHeavy said:

I asked for a explaintion of this here "Sigma." and none has been offered.

There are two Italian BB's I like well enough. The Carico in Operations, Specifically Narai. I have attemted her in current operations and into Coop itself but she is  swept away when you realise that your Ship is not reliable in battle. A glass Jawed.

The one GEM that I have enjoyed the hell out of since yesterday evening is the Lepento. Shes a little bit lightweight deep inside. However if guided carefully in Random, Ranked (Of all things) and so on against other humans she can fight. Just make sure there are no Musashis about. That specific BB can crush the Lepento like a beer can slammed down at a frat house. Accompanied by cackles of laugher and joy at your losses.

Lepento does one thing specifically that none of the other Italian BB's could do. Shoot and land rounds on the enemy wherever it might be found. Ive gained the confidence now that if I need to shoot up a apartment block with the thing to go after enemies infesting it down town, I can do it. If there was such a situation to do so.

I agree totally with the LePanto.  The one thing I would add is that with the creeping smoke, she also carries ONE very large torpedo.

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3 hours ago, MannyD_of_The_Sea said:

Vittorio Veneto has nine guns, does it not?

Yes she does. Cunningham was faced with that problem in battle.

He had three battleships trapped in the slow 22 or so knot WW1 Era Barham BB with his task force trying to close with the much faster Italian Battlefleet.

I myself have written off the VV. I bought a few boxes which happened to award the Lepento. The Lepento is everything I want in a BB. Able to fight, move, provide it's own concealment when necessary AND HIT WHATEVER IT"s SHOOTING AT ANY RANGE, near or far. Particularly DD's. You can reliably land a few AP or HE into any DD in the game.

The guns are not partiuclarly POWERFUL but they HIT what you aim at. THAT is a power all it's own. You can turn battleturn 180 relatively fast (And you will be when faced with 3 BB's that is coming after you specifically in Ranked) The Cruisers are their own issues and can be fought for better or worse. Literally you win and surivie? Or you get sunk. and lose. Its up to you. You carry your team to victory doing your part with a actual implement of war like the Lepento. Its a good ship. Its NOT A MONSTER however. Secondaries are crap and frankly other aprts of the game has been nerfed so hard or outright destroyed there is no point in worrying about them.

Just adopt combat Russian Style. Fly a red and white flag denoting 50% more damage to whoever you collide with. Add full speed and take him or her out. The bigger the better. Then move on to ship number two.

Dont worry the human ranked BB red team will abandon that middle objectives when they see that you survied and killed a BB and is advancing on number two BB while printing a new heal.

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I wish specifically to express my gratitude for the illuminating teaching from all of you about Sigma just now.

I have alot of new thinking to do tonight over coffee while I consider what I just learned in several ways from each of you.

As we say in the south, we appreciate you all.

THANK YOU!

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They really should just let BB sap do full damage to DDs. That's how it works with italian cruisers, and the current dispersion only allows 2 or 3 shells to hit reliably anyway. Besides, DDs already have far too many protections.

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I remember when the Italian BB's were in testing. As a CV player you get a birds eye view of what is going down - watching someone blap 20/30k off someone with an Italian BB was interesting...and how they did it accurately was impressive.

I imagine wargaming saw this and thought "ah **** it's gonna be another GC debacle" and beat them into the ground. 

What's more interesting is BB Sap vs a DD. Time and time and time again I will hit a DD who makes a torp run with multiple sap rounds and he downright LOL'z at me as he speeds away. SAP is TRASH for that line...and it's starting to show when I never even bother to use that ammo choice. There is no reason to ever use SAP...your guns aren't accurate enough and do not reload fast enough to justify aiming at SAP vulnerable areas...so stick to AP and hope for the big numbers (and Veneto can land those salvos pretty regularly for some odd reason.) 

Meanwhile...cruiser SAP is still stupid good. Venezia is still stomping face with Sansonitti and can troll flanks all day long. I can get in close, reload guns fast enough, land those shots, and get outta jail free with the smoke...it's truly an amazing cruiser to play. 

You just don't get that kinda fun with the BB line. 
 

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The sigma is bad on these ships and the dispersion is too.  When you combine the two, it really makes it bad.  Dispersion by itself is bad in some ships, but with half decent sigma, enough of the shells fall to the center of the shot grouping that the ship can land enough good shots to be playable.  When you widen the dispersion and lower the sigma, any shots where there is a more random dispersion around a significantly larger ellipse means there is less of a chance for shells to fall in the center of the shot group.  It means an accurate shot can put all shells around a target even when fairly close.  The only way to guarantee a hit, is to make sure the dispersion height and width is less than the length of the ship you are shooting at.  Translated, it means you need to be incredibly close.  It initially sounds ok be cause the length of the ships at same tier are often close to the listed dispersion, but that is only for the width.  The height plays a big part as well, which is part of the problem when you see shots go over and under on the same volley and completely miss the target.

A sigma adjustment could help these ships immensely.  I wouldn't mind seeing the SAP damage values reduced to 2/3 of what they are now.  Then they could allow full pens on DDs, instead of the 10% allowed now.  10% is generally ok for a high value shell, but the chances of hitting anything is so low on these ships that you might as well just yell at any DDs that wander by.  Shooting is just a waste of a shot, and the secondaries are useless.

 

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4 hours ago, xHeavy said:

Yes she does. Cunningham was faced with that problem in battle.

He had three battleships trapped in the slow 22 or so knot WW1 Era Barham BB with his task force trying to close with the much faster Italian Battlefleet.

I myself have written off the VV. I bought a few boxes which happened to award the Lepento. The Lepento is everything I want in a BB. Able to fight, move, provide it's own concealment when necessary AND HIT WHATEVER IT"s SHOOTING AT ANY RANGE, near or far. Particularly DD's. You can reliably land a few AP or HE into any DD in the game.

The guns are not partiuclarly POWERFUL but they HIT what you aim at. THAT is a power all it's own. You can turn battleturn 180 relatively fast (And you will be when faced with 3 BB's that is coming after you specifically in Ranked) The Cruisers are their own issues and can be fought for better or worse. Literally you win and surivie? Or you get sunk. and lose. Its up to you. You carry your team to victory doing your part with a actual implement of war like the Lepento. Its a good ship. Its NOT A MONSTER however. Secondaries are crap and frankly other aprts of the game has been nerfed so hard or outright destroyed there is no point in worrying about them.

Just adopt combat Russian Style. Fly a red and white flag denoting 50% more damage to whoever you collide with. Add full speed and take him or her out. The bigger the better. Then move on to ship number two.

Dont worry the human ranked BB red team will abandon that middle objectives when they see that you survied and killed a BB and is advancing on number two BB while printing a new heal.

EXACTLY this.  I also got the Marco Polo since I do like the RM in general.  To me, it is the Marco Polo that is the disappointment.  Her guns just seem of poorer overall quality and ability than the LePanto.  And with no smoke, it can't even torpedo. 

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9 minutes ago, Dr_Venture said:

I remember when the Italian BB's were in testing. As a CV player you get a birds eye view of what is going down - watching someone blap 20/30k off someone with an Italian BB was interesting...and how they did it accurately was impressive.

I imagine wargaming saw this and thought "ah **** it's gonna be another GC debacle" and beat them into the ground. 

What's more interesting is BB Sap vs a DD. Time and time and time again I will hit a DD who makes a torp run with multiple sap rounds and he downright LOL'z at me as he speeds away. SAP is TRASH for that line...and it's starting to show when I never even bother to use that ammo choice. There is no reason to ever use SAP...your guns aren't accurate enough and do not reload fast enough to justify aiming at SAP vulnerable areas...so stick to AP and hope for the big numbers (and Veneto can land those salvos pretty regularly for some odd reason.) 

Meanwhile...cruiser SAP is still stupid good. Venezia is still stomping face with Sansonitti and can troll flanks all day long. I can get in close, reload guns fast enough, land those shots, and get outta jail free with the smoke...it's truly an amazing cruiser to play. 

You just don't get that kinda fun with the BB line. 
 

Veneto is the only BB in the line I don't have.  I got the ones before it buying the bundles with tokens and I got the LePanto in a crate (lucky me - third crate).  I would like to get h er, but haven't really been grinding on the T7 much.  Not sure where Veneto lands in the spectrum (hearing bad stuff about the lower tiers, but I like the LePanto a lot.

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