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SeaLord_MacKraken

T-61 or Z-39 in 2021

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Any one of the two is fine. Both are torpedo destroyers with a bit of gun potential. T-61 is the stronger one per tier, but Z-39 got a buff to her main battery firepower with the rework, so she is workable now as a gunboat. She also has the concealment module (exclusive to T8+ ships, the other exception is Belfast).

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9 minutes ago, hanesco said:

Any one of the two is fine. Both are torpedo destroyers with a bit of gun potential. T-61 is the stronger one per tier, but Z-39 got a buff to her main battery firepower with the rework, so she is workable now as a gunboat. She also has the concealment module (exclusive to T8+ ships, the other exception is Belfast).

Interesting! So T-61 max concealment is 6.3 km, vs 6.2 km of Z-39. The downside - 2M credits for the module for extra 100m.

Torp range on Z-39 is 8.5km, so it's more comfortable to stealth-torp.

But guns on T-61 has higher DPM and she's a tier lower, also she's more agile, although 1ktn slower.

So it comes down to torp-boat Z-39 playstyle vs gunboat-with-torps - T-61.

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2 hours ago, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

Interesting! So T-61 max concealment is 6.3 km, vs 6.2 km of Z-39. The downside - 2M credits for the module for extra 100m.

Torp range on Z-39 is 8.5km, so it's more comfortable to stealth-torp.

But guns on T-61 has higher DPM and she's a tier lower, also she's more agile, although 1ktn slower.

So it comes down to torp-boat Z-39 playstyle vs gunboat-with-torps - T-61.

T-61 is more of a true hybrid than a gunboat (she doesn't win gunfights against true gunboats like Farragut). Otherwise it is as you said.

I have both, and T-61 has always been the strongest of the 2. But Z-39's guns got buffed with the Skills Rework, and she has a LOT of HP (for tier VII) too.

Edited by hanesco

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How did Z39 get a buff with the rework? (I looked it up but only found about the HE pen buff from summer 2020, nothing from the early 2021 rework)

 

I'm used to smokeless gunboats with faster guns, so I play Z39 is a torpedo boat (7.5 secs reload on her guns... and her healthpool is great, but not a novelty due to being used to FR DDs). But she also doesn't stack up very well vs. other dedicated torpbotes. That makes her a rather tricky ship, with no hard benefits vs. what she competes against (not to mention what she may have to compete against due to the matchmaker...). Don't get me wrong, when they hit, her guns hit hard (great HE strike, especially for a German DD, and with 38mm of pen stock). She just doesn't hit very often and her DPM pales vs. other gunboats.

It's a T7 ship so expecting 21 commanders on it is rather optimistic... Even with 13 or 16pts, the only way to get that atrocious reload down is with both BFT (which got nerfed) and AR (which means losing health).

 

I have 39 but not 61. My stats on 39 are pathetic but I've only played 11 games in her. I remember her as mostly situational, and she can't handle direct gunfights. Torps are ok and reload in 90 secs, with a higher pt captain she could get this down to 81 secs but it's T7, unless you truly wanted to specialize with her and had plenty of play-time, that'd seem a rare possibility (I myself can't play every day, and when I do it's 4 or 5 games, which I focus in grinding lines). Something like this maybe: https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSD508&modules=11111&upgrades=145220&commander=PCW001&skills=4356131&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

Edited by Count_pott

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3 minutes ago, Count_pott said:

How did Z39 get a buff with the rework? (I looked it up but only found something from the summer 2020, nothing from the early 2021 rework)

 

I'm used to smokeless gunboats, so I play Z39 is a torpedo boat (7.5 secs reload on her guns...). But she also doesn't stack up very well vs. other dedicated torpbotes. That makes her a rather tricky ship, with no hard benefits vs. what she competes against (not to mention what she may have to compete against due to the matchmaker...). Don't get me wrong, when they hit, her guns hit hard (great HE strike, especially for a German DD, and with 38mm of pen stock). She just doesn't hit very often and her DPM pales vs. other gunboats.

It's a T7 ship so expecting 21 commanders on it is rather optimistic... Even with 13 or 16pts, the only way to get that atrocious reload down is with both BFT (which got nerfed) and AR (which means losing health).

 

I have 39 but not 61. My stats on 39 are pathetic but I've only played 11 games in her. I remember her as mostly situational, and she can't handle direct gunfights. Torps are ok and reload in 90 secs, with a higher pt captain she could get this down to 81 secs but it's T7, unless you truly wanted to specialize with her and had plenty of play-time, that'd seem a rare possibility (I myself can't play every day, and when I do it's 4 or 5 games, which I focus in grinding lines). Something like this maybe: https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSD508&modules=11111&upgrades=145220&commander=PCW001&skills=4356131&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

Thank you Sir! I'm going with T-61. Z-39 has a slightly worse win rate and costs more doubloons. Also to bring concealment down to manageable level it requires 2M credits for 5th slot, while T-61 has pretty much the same concealment without it. Guns on T-61 has higher DPM than on Z-39, and it's a tier lower. Pen on T-61 guns is also decent even without IHFE so it'll do a lot of damage while sitting in smoke and using hydro to dodge torps. And she's got better rudder shift time which also helps. Faster torps reload on T-61 is also great for hit-and-run attacks.

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14 hours ago, Count_pott said:

How did Z39 get a buff with the rework? (I looked it up but only found about the HE pen buff from summer 2020, nothing from the early 2021 rework)

BFT now affect all destroyer guns. Before, you could never buff it, so that's a gain of +5% to the DPM.

And she is mostly a torpboat, so you aren't playing it wrong. Torpboats are not very effective unless you have a very good positioning and situational awareness, so it is true that T-61 is more reliable. But T-61 is not a true gunboat either, and despite the hype that surrounds her, she is not as strong as she was before.

Edited by hanesco

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23 hours ago, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

Interesting! So T-61 max concealment is 6.3 km, vs 6.2 km of Z-39. The downside - 2M credits for the module for extra 100m.

Torp range on Z-39 is 8.5km, so it's more comfortable to stealth-torp.

But guns on T-61 has higher DPM and she's a tier lower, also she's more agile, although 1ktn slower.

So it comes down to torp-boat Z-39 playstyle vs gunboat-with-torps - T-61.

T-61 is the hands-down choice. He is better for Tier than Z-39, but also, T-61 is being removed from sale for being too powerful and popular. 

The strength to T-61 is that he has just flat-out OP torpedoes. The same pair of quadruple torpedo racks that Ernst Gaede has in the tech tree, but three kts faster and with a 0.5 km better range... and more importantly, a ridiculously better 68-second base torpedo reload compared to the 90 seconds on Ernst Gaede. Getting T-61's torpedo reload under 60 seconds is easy. Nearly a 2 km stealth torpedo range.

Otherwise T-61 doesn't have the greatest guns, but they're good enough, and her combination of great hydro for tier and smoke make her a bit like a Tier VI Loyang, which is also an extremely strong ship for tier.

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T-61 is one of the few ships I flat out bought.  

No regrets.

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10 minutes ago, RainbowFartingUnicorn said:

T-61 is the hands-down choice. He is better for Tier than Z-39, but also, T-61 is being removed from sale for being too powerful and popular. 

The strength to T-61 is that he has just flat-out OP torpedoes. The same pair of quadruple torpedo racks that Ernst Gaede has in the tech tree, but three kts faster and with a 0.5 km better range... and more importantly, a ridiculously better 68-second base torpedo reload compared to the 90 seconds on Ernst Gaede. Getting T-61's torpedo reload under 60 seconds is easy. Nearly a 2 km stealth torpedo range.

Otherwise T-61 doesn't have the greatest guns, but they're good enough, and her combination of great hydro for tier and smoke make her a bit like a Tier VI Loyang, which is also an extremely strong ship for tier.

Thank you! I've got T-61. 2 battles against T8s, one loss, one victory. Figuring out which upgrade for the slot 4 to take: acceleration or damage con 2. Rudder shift is already good so squeezing fractions of seconds doesn't worth 1M credits IMO.

As she's premium I can have 2 captains for DD: one with full torp build, another - with guns skills upgraded. Playing each will help to figure out what would be better for that ship.

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4 hours ago, hanesco said:

BFT now affect all destroyer guns. Before, you could never buff it, so that's a gain of +5% to the DPM.

And she is mostly a torpboat, so you aren't playing it wrong. Torpboats are not very effective unless you have a very good positioning and situational awareness, so it is true that T-61 is more reliable. But T-61 is not a true gunboat either, and despite the hype that surrounds her, she is not as strong as she was before.

Oh I forgot about that, thanks! I didn't have any captains with enough pts to get BFT before the rework so I never looked into the skill.

Of course now that I have plenty, BFT is nerfed.

Edited by Count_pott

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4 hours ago, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

Thank you! I've got T-61. 2 battles against T8s, one loss, one victory. Figuring out which upgrade for the slot 4 to take: acceleration or damage con 2. Rudder shift is already good so squeezing fractions of seconds doesn't worth 1M credits IMO.

As she's premium I can have 2 captains for DD: one with full torp build, another - with guns skills upgraded. Playing each will help to figure out what would be better for that ship.

The option normally is Engine Mod. DamageCon2 doesn't give enough of a benefit to win against Engine mod, which helps you in case some torps come to ruin your farming. 

Enjoy your ship, she is a good, powerful one.

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T-61 is the one to go for.

1. It's getting removed soon

2. It's pretty much universally loved/recommended so that's a strong indicator it's doing well.

3. Also these days tier 7 seems to see a lot of tier 9.

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I have both ships, but i prefer T-61, more capable in most tiers V VI or VII MMs

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Likewise t-61 has been the stronger boat in my opinion.

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I like both equally. Both get down to 6.1 concealment. I’ve had some really good games in both. I will say the turret arrangement in the Z-39 is kind of funky though. 
The T-61 has 8k toros and 4K sonar. The  Z-39 has 5k sonar and 8.5k torps. The extra range on both really lets you do some things even in Tier 9 games. And in those games you have the potential to earn more credits. 
I got the T61 with goal last year but when I heard the Z-39 was also leaving I used my 25% off coupon and bought it. I’m glad I did and glad I have both. 

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I love the T-61. It is my go to German DD. My WR is below average but I hold my own in both the T-61 and Z-39. I like the T-61 better but I got my first kraken in the Z-39 so go figure. Like it was said, both are great ships but facing T9's in a T7 is a lot harder than T8's in a T6.

Lose some health in a the T-61 and you are sub 60sec torpedo reloads and hydro is always nice to have.

Edited by Sauteed_Potatoes

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For reasons previously identified, T-61 is the better buy between the two, though Z-39 isn't terrible, either. It is worth noting that even T-61 has waned a bit in its magnificence, since the flooding rework. It is also worth noting that, Z-39's guns have 38mm of HE penetration, which allows it to get through some battleship armor that 128mm guns can't. This is quite a significant advantage, especially when facing tier 8s and 9s.

--Helms

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On 4/11/2021 at 3:01 PM, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

If you were to pick ONE, which would you choose in 2021 meta: T-61 or Z-39, and why?

T-61 because it's going to be removed from the store soon, and it's still one of the best (if not THE best) T6 DD.
It's a very good hybrid and pretty versatile.

Z-39 however is a good torpedo boat, but will struggle fighting other DD due to it's low DPM. It's got an extremely good conceilment for a T7 since it's got access to the stealth module.
It's basically a z-23 on T7 with one less gun. And since WG nerfed Z-23 you might want to go for this one.
Its 150mm guns are pretty good against CL, and it's got improved HE penetration as well. It's also the only DD equipped with 5km hydro on T7 yet.
So if you play a lot of T7 battles, I'd prefer it above the new Z-31.

But overall I had far more battles in T-61 than in Z-39. It never let me down

Edited by Maviba
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On 4/11/2021 at 11:17 AM, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

Interesting! So T-61 max concealment is 6.3 km, vs 6.2 km of Z-39. The downside - 2M credits for the module for extra 100m.

Torp range on Z-39 is 8.5km, so it's more comfortable to stealth-torp.

But guns on T-61 has higher DPM and she's a tier lower, also she's more agile, although 1ktn slower.

So it comes down to torp-boat Z-39 playstyle vs gunboat-with-torps - T-61.

I have both and both are strong...its not dpm in these boats.....its torp reloading speed (t61) vs better range hydro and health pool (z39) both are strong 

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The more I play these two the more I like them both equally. I’ll often play them back to back. 

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Personally, I chose Z-39. It is used to be a bit more unique in that its slow RoF 150mm guns had surprisingly good AP pen for T7 but now, WG looked at it and made a new line of boats exploiting that idea. However, Z-39 has a great concealment, while the new line isn't good in that area. And Z-39 is definitely superior to Z-31 in every department so if you want to exploit that concept at T7, it's a no-contest.   With a Z-39, you'll be able to hit the citadel of very CL in your MM range as well as a good amount of CAs. And the torps are definitely reliable. Its 5km hydro+smoke combo make it more polyvalent as well; you can actually contest caps in some situations, even though you'd normally lose to the dpm of the other destroyer.

One other thing worth mentioning: T-7 should yield more credits and XP (thus free XP and commander XP) on average. Another point is that the next ranked season will change a bit; bronze will now be T6 and T7. So a T7 destroyer will allow you to be top tier in the new upcoming bronze league. Z-39 will probably be a strong pick due to the good concealment and overall versatility.

But yeah, it's a tough choice; they're both really good.

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Both are very good boats. T61 is a glass cannon with amazing torp power for her tier and decent guns. Z39 is a very tanky DD with great concealment for her tier (with the module), has 5km Hydro instead of the 4km one the other Tier 6 and 7 German DDs have, and average torps. Only her guns are weak, but not overwhelmingly so. Get T61 is you like running along a flank spamming torps and pissing off the enemy team. Get Z39 if you want to screen and support your team with a hydro boat detection range way better than any other DD it could ever come across, plus the health to survive getting focused.

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I have both the 61 and the 39.

TLDR: Use the T-61 as an aggressive hunter. Use the Z39 like you are balancing an egg on your little toe while standing on your head and touching your nose.

T-61 amazing torps boat.  and guns to frighten the fish.   It is the best DD to play very aggressively with. It is a very simple ship to use ... Hunt down anything and torp it to death.

 

The Z-39 ... it's a strange boat.  I totally sucked with it, to begin with, because I used it very aggressively.  I used to use it as I would the T-61 and aggressive torp boat.  Then I changed to a gunboat with a decent torp platform.  She is a bit difficult to play and to master and I see every very few out there because IMO she is one of the toughest nuts to crack.   Only when I changed her to a gunboat did my damage and WR start to climb.  She is a hunter but a different kind of hunter.  I would fire my guns and start damaging a target.  ...ANY target, then pop smoke and run away from the target and my own smoke.     I would fire my guns just as I cleared my smoke to lure them.  They would see me still in my smoke, and drop torps or fire back.   Then I would turn, drop my fish, and circle around..fire my guns a couple more times just to show that I "ran".  I would say that 8 out of 10 times,  regardless of type would fall for this.  They would see the smoke, drop torps at MY smoke, then charge my smoke. and eat my torps.  If you play this DD, you have to rely on a different type of skill and ignore the "threats of reporting" when you do not charge into caps.

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On 4/11/2021 at 9:01 AM, SeaLord_MacKraken said:

If you were to pick ONE, which would you choose in 2021 meta: T-61 or Z-39, and why?

I have both the T-61 and Z-39.  For overall general gameplay including ranked, if I could choose one I would take the T-61.  It is such a powerful destroyer at tier 6 and it plays well even when up tiered "if" you are familiar with the play style of the German destroyer line.  Z-39's play style takes a bit getting used to.  It's 150mm canons reload at 7.5 seconds and no consumable or captain skill can change that.  So you are not going to knife fight with the destroyers tiers 5-9 with better DPM and survive.  Z-39 was supposed to come out at tier 8, but in testing it was not competitive at tier 8 if I recall, so they dropped it to tier 7, but it retains 5km hydro, smoke and a slot for concealment so its stealth is competitive!  With a well trained captain you can get both T-61 and Z-39's detection down to 6.1km, which is not bad.  The IJN boats with good captains will still out spot you, but not out gun you in either ship, but good Haida players with 5.7km detect will out spot you and hunt you.  This ranked season, I have been playing Z-39 and it has performed well. 

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