Pan-American Battleship Line: A needed Resubmission

[otakuben]

So after some discussion in my original thread I went back and rethought my evaluation of the Pan-American Battleship line and changed a fair amount of ships. On top of that I added 3 Premium ships. As I list every ship I will endeavor to add a picture as well as a brief description of the ship (if there is one to give).

 

Pan-American Battleship Line

For those who don't know, over the course of almost 20 years there was a strong arms race between the countries of Brazil, Argentina, and Chile. The initial race had existed back into the 1800's but it kicked into full gear when Brazil ordered the building of a Dreadnought Battleship in 1905. While there would be many ship designs pitched to the nations over the course of the arms race, only a few would be ultimately built and the others remained firmly on paper. 

Tier's 3-5 are actually built ships for the three nations.

Tier's 6-8 are paper ships with actual designs that never made it past the design process for various reasons.

Tier's 9-10 are conceptual ships. Basically tested aspects of different design concepts put together to form a single ship.

 

Most of what prevented these later ships from being built was budget. Due to issues both at home and abroad, the South American countries realized that they could not continue to produce the ships they want because of financial issues. These financial problems would be exacerbated  to the point that even the ships that were built would fall into different levels of disrepair over the course of their service history.

 

Tier 3 - Minas Geraes (Brazil)

The Minas Geraes was laid down in 1907 after three pre-dreadnought designs that were in their early building stages were demolished in favor of the modern Minas Geraes. The ship would be given the honors of the being a modern Dreadnought built before any were built by France, Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy. Geraes would see service in World War 2 but could not actively serve as her age was too old to be able to clash against more modern Battleships of the time. She would be decommissioned shortly after the end of the second world war and then sold for scrap to an Italian company who towed it to Genoa. Her twin, Sao Paulo, would also be sold for scrap but would be lost at sea before ever making her final destination.

 

 

Hitpoints: 35800

Armament

Main: 305mm/45 cal - 6x2 (Range - 12.5km)

Secondary: 120mm/50 cal - 22x1 

Secondary/AA: 47mm - 8x1

Armor

Belt Main: 229mm 

Belt Extended: 152mm

Casemate: 230mm

Turrets: 305mm

Tower: 300mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 21 knots

Turning Circle: 550m

Rudder Shift Time: 15 sec

 

 

 

Tier 4 - Rivadavia (Argentina)

The Rivadavia was Argentina's first serious response to the creation of Brazil's Dreadnought. Argentina took multiple bid's in 1908 for both Dreadnoughts and Destroyers as a way to try and match Brazil before they became the power in the waters of South America. After multiple bids Argentina threw out all of the offers and instead took a offer in 1910 by the US for the battleship Rivadavia after the US dropped the price of the Dreadnought by $500,000. They also contracted for two more making it 3 dreadnoughts in total. However they would change that to 2 dreadnoughts after Brazil decided to sell it's third dreadnought.  Two dreadnoughts of the class would be made in total but after their launch and initial trials would be fraught with set backs and delays. Eventually, after the ships were repaired, they mostly sat inactive due to Argentina's neutrality. Eventually both Rivadavia class Battleships would be sold for scrap. One to Italy the other to Britain. 

 

Hitpoints: 46400

Armament

Main: 305mm/50 cal - 6x2 (Range - 14.2km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 cal - 12x1; 102mm/50cal - 16x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 4x1 

Armor

Belt Main: 300mm

Belt Extended: 250mm

Deck: 114mm

Deck Extended: 96mm

Casemate: 238mm

Turrets: 305mm

Tower: 300mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 23 knots

Turning Circle: 620m

Rudder Shift Time: 16.3 sec

 

 

 

Tier 5 - Almirante Latorre (Chile)

The Almirante Latorre can almost be considered the peak of South American actual built Battleships. With the biggest guns on any South American Battleship it would have been the most advanced ship of any of the 3 South American countries participating in the Arms race. However before it could be finished the Royal Navy bought the ship and renamed is the HMS Canada. It served in the British fleet during the Great war and saw action in Jutland. However not long after the war ended the Chilean government bought the HMA Canada and renamed it the Almirante Latorre. It became the flagship of the Chilean Navy and served as the Presidential Transport until the crew on the ship Mutinied and took most of the Chilean Naval Fleet with them. However the rebellion quickly fell apart and all ships returned to the Chilean Government. Shortly after the start of the Great Depression the ship was put into reserve to save money but remained in good enough condition to be considered for purchase by the US government after Pearl Harbor. The Chilean government refused their offer and instead used the ship for Neutrality Patrols until the end of the Second World War. The ship would eventually meet it's fate in 1951 after an accident in the engine room killed 3 crew members. The ship would then be moored and used as a storage hulk for fuel oil until it was decommissioned and sold for scrap in 1959.

Hitpoints: 48200

Armament

Main: 355mm/45 cal - 5x2 (Range - 15.8)

Secondary: 152mm/50 cal - 16x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 6x1

Armor

Belt Main: 230mm

Belt Extended: 100mm

Deck: 102mm

Deck Extended: 25mm

Turrets: 250mm

Tower: 280mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 23 knots

Turning Circle: 590m

Rudder Shift Time: 16 sec

 

 

 

Tier 6 - Riachuelo (Brazil)

The Riachuelo was Brazil's final attempt at designing a modern dreadnought with firepower to surpass Argentina and Chile. The ship underwent multiple designs with dozen's of layout's. The main guns would have ranged from 12 inches to 16 inches depending on the need. The government decided on a ship that somewhat resembled the Queen Elizabeth Class of dreadnoughts with sturdy armor and 15 inch naval guns. She unfortunately would never see reality as the government decided they could not afford the cost of building her and cancelled all chances of production.

Hitpoints: 52400

Armament

Main: 381mm/42 cal - 4x2 (Range - 17km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 14x1; 100mm/50 - 10x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 6x1; 40mm - 4x4

AA: 12mm - 2x4

Armor

Belt Main: 330mm

Belt Extended: 152mm-100mm

Deck: 152mm

Deck Extended - 76mm

Turrets: 350mm

Tower: 330mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 22.5 knots

Turning Circle: 650m

Rudder Shift Time: 17.9 sec

 

 

Tier 7 - Design 784 (Brazil)

A variation of the Riachuelo design with 10/15 inch guns instead of the 8. The ship would be slightly better armored and even a little faster but much larger. The overall cost of this design was much greater than the government ever wanted to pay.

Hitpoints: 59100

Armament

Main: 381mm/42 cal - 5x2 (Range - 18.4km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 14x1; 10mm/50 - 10x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 3x1; 40mm - 6x4

AA: 12mm - 4x4

Armor

Belt Main: 340mm

Belt Extended: 220mm

Deck: 127mm

Deck extended: 76mm

Turrets: 350mm

Tower: 330mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 24 knots

Turning Circle: 690m

Rudder Shift Time: 19.7 sec

 

 

 

Tier 8 - Saavedra (Argentina)

This would be Argentina's last full design attempt at a modern Dreadnought. This however would cross over into Modern battleship territory. A Captain by the name of Gonzalez would take upon him the task of coming up with a modern fast battleship design that would put Argentina on part with other navies of the time. While coming up with his design he looked at different battleships from across the modern world to gauge where he wanted to fall with his design. He ultimately came to the decision that he preferred 15 inch guns in more turrets but with a favorable speed and decent anti-air. His design would be very reminiscent of the Italian Littorio class of battleships. While his design would look very similar it was a bit shorter with the secondary layout slightly different compared to the Italian Littorio's. The ship would never come to fruition as the government was facing financial crisis like many of the other South American countries at that time. However it's design would be the epitome of Argentinian engineering and power.

 

An excerpt provided by @BrunoSchezer concerning the layout difference in the two pictures. "In 1941, the government of Argentina released a law to acquire the funds to purchase new naval units to put at service of the ARA (Armada de la República Argentina). One part of the funds was to be used in the construction of a new battleship class to serve alongside the old Rivadavia-class battleships, Rivadavia and Moreno. One Commander from the navy called Osvaldo J. González, in 1943, proposed the characteristics the new battleship class needed in that time to serve in the Argentine Navy. He proposed a battleship based on the Italian Littorio-class battleships. She would need to carry nine main guns of 381mm on a 3x3 setup, a secondary armament of 12 pieces of 152mm in a 2x6 setup, an anti-aircraft system of 12x89mm in dual mounts, 16 of 37mm in quad mounts and 16 of 12.7mm in quad mounts. All of this in a hull of 238 meters x 31 meters, with an armor belt of 356mm and a deck of 200mm (150mm+50mm), while the armor of the main turrets was to be 381mm. The propulsion should be enough to be capable of navigate at a speed of 30 knots and carry a central hangar alongside two catapults to launch three aircrafts, with a standard displacement of 37000 tons. She most likely was planned to be built in an Italian shipyard, like the heavy cruisers of the Veinticinco de Mayo-class was built in Livorno by OTO, but due to the current war at that time in Europe and the consequent cancelation of the plan, she was not built."

Hitpoints:  64500

Armament

Main: 381mm/45 cal - 3x3 (Range - 19.2km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 6x2

Secondary/AA: 89mm/50 - 6x2

AA: 37mm - 4x4; 16mm - 4x4

Armor

Belt Main: 356mm

Deck: 200mm

Turrets: 350mm

Tower: 381mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 30 knots

Turning Circle: 820m

Rudder Shift Time: 21 sec

 

 

 

Tier 9 - Miguel de Guemes (Argentina)

This is where we get into conceptual aspects of South American battleship design. When Gonzales was working on his design he tested multiple calibers of guns. Amongst them was 16 inches. While he liked the power of the guns themselves he favored the 15 inch because of less wear and faster reload. However were those not a factor in his decision this would be the natural progression of the ships. This is essentially increasing the size of the Saavedra to accommodate 9/16in guns with increased armor protection. Along with that increase would also be a increase in the medium and small secondary's as well as a slight loss in speed. This would be very reminiscent of the Italian Marco Polo.

Hitpoints: 71200

Armament

Main: 406mm/45 - 3x3 (Range - 21km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 4x3

Secondary/AA: 89mm/50 - 8x2

AA: 37mm - 6x4; 16mm - 8x4

Armor

Belt main: 381mm

Deck: 200mm

Turrets: 381mm

Tower: 381mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 28.5 knots

Turning Circle: 910m

Rudder Shift Time: 24 sec

 

 

 

Tier 10 - Bartolome Mitre (Argentina)

This is the last of the conceptual ships. The Argentine navy needed some primary things from a ship. It had to be fast, with a strong broadside, more than 2 turrets, and well armored. This would be that concept without restrictions. An amalgamation of all individually tested ideas put together into one large battleship. With 8/16in guns on the bow in two quadruple turrets and 4/16in guns in a single quadruple turret on the aft you get a fairly armored beast of a battleship. It's defining feature being a 35 km top speed (what they originally wanted) but a lower than average hit point pool as the ship needed to be lighter to accommodate such speeds. The Armor is also slightly lower than average for it's tier making it a little more fragile compared to other ships of the tier.

Hitpoints: 88500

Armament

Main: 406m/45 - 3x4 (Range - 22.6km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 4x3

Secondary/AA: 89mm/50 - 12x2

AA: 37mm - 10x4; 16mm - 16x4

Armor

Belt Main: 406mm

Deck: 200mm

Turret: 406mm

Tower: 406mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 35 knots

Turning Circle: 1200m

Rudder Shift Time: 21 sec

 

 

Premium Ships

Now for the premium ships I have 3 to offer. 1 of them is an actual built ship, the second is a paper design, the third is a considered alternative to a paper design.

 

Tier 5 Premium - Rio do Janero (Brazil)

This may be a more controversial choice as the ship barely sailed under the Brazilian flag. However the original ship was ordered by the Brazilian government and was to be sailed by them until the collapse of Brazil's rubber industry. Instead the ship would be bought by the Ottoman empire and then the British empire until it's scrapping in 1922. However she would see action in Jutland before being scrapped to adhere to the Washington Naval Treaty.

Hit points: 47900

Armament

Main: 305mm/50 cal - 7x2 (Range - 15 km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 20x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 10x1

Armor

Belt Main: 229mm

Deck: 64mm

Deck Extended: 25mm

Turret: 305mm

Tower: 305mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 22 knots

Turning Circle: 630m

Rudder Shift Time: 15.8 sec

 

 

Tier 7 Premium - Design 685A (Brazil)

Another take on the Riachuelo design, this one featuring a large broadside of 10/16in guns. The ship would have presented a formidable broadside for the time period as well as against the nations it was meant to compete with. However like design 784 it just wasn't meant to be. The lighter armor did make it faster compared to other dreadnoughts but also more vulnerable to other ships.

Hit points: 57700

Armament

Main: 406mm/45 cal - 5x2 (Range - 18.5km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 14x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 4x1

AA: 37mm - 4x4, 16mm - 4x4

Armor

Belt Main: 303mm

Belt Extended: 152mm

Deck: 152mm

Turret: 330mm

Tower: 330mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 24 knots

Turning Circle: 720m

Rudder Shift Time: 18.9 sec

 

 

 

Tier 8 Premium - Torcuato de Alvear (Argentina)

The Riachuelo had multiple ideas on layout in terms of main battery. One of the concepts that was rejected by Gonzales was 8/16in guns in 2 quad turrets. He did not favor the layout of ships like the Nelson. So the most likely layout of the ship would have been one turret at the bow and one turret at the aft. While the overall weight would have been less than the 9/15in guns in 3 triple turrets Gonzales did not like having so many of the main guns contained in only 2 turret compared to three. However this ship is that take on the concept which would have lightened the ship by 5000 tonnes helping increased it's overall speed.

Hit Points: 61000

Armament

Main: 406mm/45 cal - 2x4 (Range - 20km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 - 6x2

Secondary/AA: 89mm/50 - 6x2

AA: 37mm - 2x8; 16mm - 2x8

Armor

Belt Main: 356mm

Deck: 200mm

Turrets: 350mm

Tower: 381mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 32 knots

Turning Circle: 850m

Rudder Shift Time: 22 sec

 

 

 

Conclusion

So that is my resubmission of the tree with greater thought put into the designs and progression. I apologize for the original submission which did not take many things into account that I should have. I hope you like it and of course I will happily discuss any aspect of it and am open to any criticism.

Thanks to @BrunoSchezer, @Talleyrand, and @Fr05ty for getting me going in the right direction. Of course this list is up for change and Bruno may be helping me with a visual design on the very last tier of the ship.

 

[Talleyrand]

Nice.

I like this line now.

I'm a historical fan son I usually don't dig for concept ships. But there is nothing to scratch above Gonzalez's tier 8. So, if we want more battleships,  we have to accept concept ships.

I have one small fix. The battleship lost in sea was the Sao Paulo (minas gerais twin). Both Rivadavia, and Moreno were scrapped with out news.

And a little suggestion, for the high tier 152mm guns yoy can use La Argentina cruiser guns. They were quite good for the late 30s. And they were unique. Only for Argentina.

 

[otakuben]

1 minute ago, Talleyrand said:

Nice.

I like this line now.

I'm a historical fan son I usually don't dig for concept ships. But there is nothing to scratch above Gonzalez's tier 8. So, if we want more battleships,  we have to accept concept ships.

I have one small fix. The battleship lost in sea was the Sao Paulo (minas gerais twin). Both Rivadavia, and Moreno were scrapped with out news.

And a little suggestion, for the high tier 152mm guns yoy can use La Argentina cruiser guns. They were quite good for the late 30s. And they were unique. Only for Argentina.

 

Thanks and I'll fix those when I get a chance (at work atm).

 

It sucks there weren't more designs past Gonzalez's but it's understandable why. 

 

Also awesome about La Argentina Cruiser Guns. I'll look to go into more detail later for each ship in terms of in-game stats.

[Lord_Magus]

I'm not sure I agree with all 3 of the top-tier "modern" BBs going to Argentina. Seems like Chile ought to get a 2nd ship in the tree. 3 for Brazil, 3 for Argentina and 2 for Chile seems fair.

I'd also really want to see Armstrong 686 as a T7 for Brazil, be it in the tech tree or as a premium. The throwback to pre-dreadnoughts by having 3x2 240mm/50 secondaries (main armament is 4x2 406mm/45) is just too quirky. Plus it's the most "Brazilian" of all the designs, since it was designed (with d'Eyncourt's help) directly by Admiral Bacellar.

[Talleyrand]

11 minutes ago, Lord_Magus said:

I'd also really want to see Armstrong 686 as a T7 for Brazil, be it in the tech tree or as a premium. The throwback to pre-dreadnoughts by having 3x2 240mm/50 secondaries (main armament is 4x2 406mm/45) is just too quirky. Plus it's the most "Brazilian" of all the designs, since it was designed (with d'Eyncourt's help) directly by Admiral Bacellar

I think this one is better for premiun. I would also suggest to re allow AP secondaries in this ship. Those 240mm could probably citadel any cruiser in the tier. 

 

By the way the gimmick i was thinking for the Panam battleships was to have SAP as secondaries. But with short range secondaries.  It would made them letal in close cuarters but they will need to be closer than German or French ships.

[otakuben]

9 minutes ago, Talleyrand said:

I think this one is better for premiun. I would also suggest to re allow AP secondaries in this ship. Those 240mm could probably citadel any cruiser in the tier. 

 

By the way the gimmick i was thinking for the Panam battleships was to have SAP as secondaries. But with short range secondaries.  It would made them letal in close cuarters but they will need to be closer than German or French ships.

I'll replace the T7 premium with that then. Especially for the potential citadel lulz. SAP would be an interesting gimmick but I agree it would make them ridiculously powerful at short range.

 

I had considered a speed boost being the gimmick for the line.

[BrunoSchezer]

Good work!

A few fixs: Rivadavia was scrapped in Italy and Moreno in Japan.

Also, just in case someone ask about why one image of Gonzalez design have a diferent setup in the Tier VIII (they could know or not about our work, you know), here is a resume quoted from a english redaction about the ship itself and historical background (you know, some people tends to know everything about one thing or another):

Spoiler

"In 1941, the government of Argentina released a law to acquire the funds to purchase new naval units to put at service of the ARA (Armada de la República Argentina). One part of the funds was to be used in the construction of a new battleship class to serve alongside the old Rivadavia-class battleships, Rivadavia and Moreno. One Commander from the navy called Osvaldo J. González, in 1943, proposed the characteristics the new battleship class needed in that time to serve in the Argentine Navy. He proposed a battleship based on the Italian Littorio-class battleships. She would need to carry nine main guns of 381mm on a 3x3 setup, a secondary armament of 12 pieces of 152mm in a 2x6 setup, an anti-aircraft system of 12x89mm in dual mounts, 16 of 37mm in quad mounts and 16 of 12.7mm in quad mounts. All of this in a hull of 238 meters x 31 meters, with an armor belt of 356mm and a deck of 200mm (150mm+50mm), while the armor of the main turrets was to be 381mm. The propulsion should be enough to be capable of navigate at a speed of 30 knots and carry a central hangar alongside two catapults to launch three aircrafts, with a standard displacement of 37000 tons. She most likely was planned to be built in an Italian shipyard, like the heavy cruisers of the Veinticinco de Mayo-class was built in Livorno by OTO, but due to the current war at that time in Europe and the consequent cancelation of the plan, she was not built."

About the other tiers, I will take care of the images in the time, modeling is a hard task for one person but is fun after all. Also @Talleyrand, lets try to find a way to adapt the 152mm of La Argentina like you suggested here, or maybe the ones from Design 1124A?.

[Fr05ty]

1 hour ago, Lord_Magus said:

I'm not sure I agree with all 3 of the top-tier "modern" BBs going to Argentina. Seems like Chile ought to get a 2nd ship in the tree. 3 for Brazil, 3 for Argentina and 2 for Chile seems fair.

I'd also really want to see Armstrong 686 as a T7 for Brazil, be it in the tech tree or as a premium. The throwback to pre-dreadnoughts by having 3x2 240mm/50 secondaries (main armament is 4x2 406mm/45) is just too quirky. Plus it's the most "Brazilian" of all the designs, since it was designed (with d'Eyncourt's help) directly by Admiral Bacellar.

Sadly that's a reality of the different countries' aspirations in the late 1930s. Chile & Brazil weren't really looking for battleships due to political issues, Brazil then entered WW2 with need for ASW & escort ships so they focused on destroyer designs, so they only started with large-ship aspirations once again after the war and even then, battleships were out of the question as they had become obsolete. Argentina was the only nation that had the stability to be looking to expand its fleet with large ships at that time.

I hope we find that those 2 navies had some battleship plans in the 40s, but I haven't heard of much beyond some modernization plans for their existing dreadnaughts.

Much better line this time than last, so good job!

PS: I really like the 686 and I've been relentless in my proposal for it to be included as a T7 premium because it'd be incredibly fun. I even gave it a name long ago: Aquidaba.

[Trophy_Wench]

This is really well done @otakuben. I'm glad to see you follow up with your original concept. Not many theorycrafters actually do that but I would say that this is quite plausible for a future LATAM BB line! 

[COLDOWN]

Hello there.

Let me help you with argentine details:

6 hours ago, otakuben said:

Tier 4 - Rivadavia (Argentina)

The Rivadavia was Argentina's first serious response to the creation of Brazil's Dreadnought. Argentina took multiple bid's in 1908 for both Dreadnoughts and Destroyers as a way to try and match Brazil before they became the power in the waters of South America. After multiple bids Argentina threw out all of the offers and instead took a offer in 1910 by the US for the battleship Rivadavia after the US dropped the price of the Dreadnought by $500,000. Two dreadnoughts of the class would be made in total but after their launch and initial trials would be fraught with set backs and delays. Eventually, after the ships were repaired, they mostly sat inactive due to Argentina's neutrality. Eventually both Rivadavia class Battleships would be sold for scrap. One to Italy the other to Britain. While the former would be scrapped completely, the later would be lost at sea as it was being towed to Britain for scrapping. 

 

Hitpoints: 46400

Armament

Main: 305mm/50 cal - 6x2 (Range - 14.2km)

Secondary: 152mm/50 cal - 12x1; 102mm/50cal - 14x1

Secondary/AA: 76mm - 4x1 

Armor

Belt Main: 300mm

Belt Extended: 250mm

Casemate: 238mm

Turrets: 305mm

Tower: 300mm

Maneuverability

Speed: 22.5 knots

Turning Circle: 620m

Rudder Shift Time: 16.3 sec

- The Argentine contract was for 3 battleships. The third was optional, it would have mounted 356 mm guns (the designs of the New York class and its towers were offered and its documented) and it was not built because Brazil decided to sell its third dreadnought, the Rio de Janeiro.

- As you have been told, the sunken ship is the San Pablo and not one of the Rivadavia class.

- Hitpoints: 48,800 maximum (from a full displacement of 31,650 long tons).

- Tertiary armament: 16x1 102/50.

- Anti-aircraft armament: 76mm is not real/confirmed so don't consider it.

- Deck Armour: 38mm + 76-51mm (or 38mm + 76-51mm + 38mm if you want to add the bottom of the vessel).

- Anti-torpedo armor (behind the belt!): 76mm + 51mm (or 51mm when disregarding the inclined section).

- Max Speed: 22.56 knots (maximum unforced), 23 knots (theoretical maximum), 23.2 knots (argentine bibliography).

- Tier: Honestly, I consider this ship as tier V, but due to the implementation needs in the arming of a branch of battleships, it will be necessary to nerf to tier IV.

[COLDOWN]

About Brazilian Dreadnoughts i just made this article (Los Dreadnoughts de Brasil (1904-1914)) based on local sources (complemented by foreign sources). There I presented the designs of the ships that were most likely to be manufactured. And also the armaments that they could have used as well as some details of their projectiles.

[Lord_Magus]

9 hours ago, Fr05ty said:

Sadly that's a reality of the different countries' aspirations in the late 1930s. Chile & Brazil weren't really looking for battleships due to political issues, Brazil then entered WW2 with need for ASW & escort ships so they focused on destroyer designs, so they only started with large-ship aspirations once again after the war and even then, battleships were out of the question as they had become obsolete. Argentina was the only nation that had the stability to be looking to expand its fleet with large ships at that time.

Chile hadn't been looking for battleships in 1906 either, but Brazil and then Argentina each purchasing a pair of dreadnoughts left them feeling they had no choice but to respond in kind. Had Saavedra (or whatever she might've been called IRL) actually been built in the 1930s, this surely would've resulted in a similar response by Chile.

Plus like I said, it just seems more inclusive for the line to have more than one ship from each of the "ABC" nations. If only WG would include T2 pre-dreadnoughts in BB lines, it could even be 3 ships each by putting Constitución at that tier. I get they don't want to expend the efforts of modeling such ships that will only get played for about 2 battles before being discarded (to the annoying extent that they even skipped the T3 BB for Italy), but oh well.

[Talleyrand]

56 minutes ago, Lord_Magus said:

If only WG would include T2 pre-dreadnoughts in BB lines, it could even be 3 ships each by putting Constitución at that tier. I get they don't want to expend the efforts of modeling such ships that will only get played for about 2 battles before being discarded (to the annoying extent that they even skipped the T3 BB for Italy), but oh well.

Sadly there is tons of material for tier 2 and tier 3 battleship.There are even designs from Peru.

I think your idea may be more commercially appealing.  Sadly we don't have a single paper of what they think a battleship should be. Yet.

But those are concepts ships. Is a matter of just changing the flag and the name. 

[Talleyrand]

Minas Gerais , some images

[COLDOWN]

15 hours ago, Lord_Magus said:

Had Saavedra (or whatever she might've been called IRL) actually been built in the 1930s, this surely would've resulted in a similar response by Chile.

 

That statement in historical terms is not accurate. During the entire 1930s Chile did not incorporate any ships.
There was no response to the Brown and La Argentina cruisers or to the Buenos Aires destroyers.
With sacrifice Chile could have bought a battleship. But its fleet would have an imbalance in the absence of cruisers and destroyers.

15 hours ago, Lord_Magus said:

Plus like I said, it just seems more inclusive for the line to have more than one ship from each of the "ABC" nations.

I agree. But there is not much more than one interest from Peru.
In the case of extending the tiers down there we can add other nations -even by force- (Mexico, Peru).

15 hours ago, Lord_Magus said:

Chile hadn't been looking for battleships in 1906 either, but Brazil and then Argentina each purchasing a pair of dreadnoughts left them feeling they had no choice but to respond in kind. Had Saavedra (or whatever she might've been called IRL) actually been built in the 1930s, this surely would've resulted in a similar response by Chile.

Plus like I said, it just seems more inclusive for the line to have more than one ship from each of the "ABC" nations. If only WG would include T2 pre-dreadnoughts in BB lines, it could even be 3 ships each by putting Constitución at that tier. I get they don't want to expend the efforts of modeling such ships that will only get played for about 2 battles before being discarded (to the annoying extent that they even skipped the T3 BB for Italy), but oh well.

I honestly find it hard to believe in the 1902 Chilean Constitution class (2x2 254mm + 190s) as a tier II.
The 1902 Argentine Maipú class (2x2 305mm + 254s) and the 1906 Brazilian Minas Geraes class (6x2 254mm) are in better condition.
And surely there is a ship similar to the Constitución / Minas Geraes with 305mm guns (similar to the Mikasa) offered to Latin American countries.

[frankfletcher_1]

13 hours ago, Talleyrand said:

Sadly there is tons of material for tier 2 and tier 3 battleship.There are even designs from Peru.

 

Where

[Talleyrand]

2 minutes ago, frankfletcher_1 said:

Where

https://reportedebatalla.wordpress.com/2020/05/27/dreadnoughts-peruanos/

Ahoy! @COLDOWN made that research a while ago

[Chobittsu]

I've always said that South America was the most underappreciated untapped potential of warship designs, glad I wasn't the only one that thought so

[tcbaker777]

gotta admit, this looks interesting

[Talleyrand]

3 minutes ago, Chobittsu said:

I've always said that South America was the most underappreciated untapped potential of warship designs, glad I wasn't the only one that thought so

So you want an Asado.
That sentence may grant you that. 

[Trophy_Wench]

24 minutes ago, Talleyrand said:

So you want an Asado.
That sentence may grant you that. 

My gods you Argentines know how to cook a steak. (Uruguay too but I digress)

[otakuben]

On 4/9/2021 at 5:46 PM, COLDOWN said:

Hello there.

Let me help you with argentine details:

- The Argentine contract was for 3 battleships. The third was optional, it would have mounted 356 mm guns (the designs of the New York class and its towers were offered and its documented) and it was not built because Brazil decided to sell its third dreadnought, the Rio de Janeiro.

- As you have been told, the sunken ship is the San Pablo and not one of the Rivadavia class.

- Hitpoints: 48,800 maximum (from a full displacement of 31,650 long tons).

- Tertiary armament: 16x1 102/50.

- Anti-aircraft armament: 76mm is not real/confirmed so don't consider it.

- Deck Armour: 38mm + 76-51mm (or 38mm + 76-51mm + 38mm if you want to add the bottom of the vessel).

- Anti-torpedo armor (behind the belt!): 76mm + 51mm (or 51mm when disregarding the inclined section).

- Max Speed: 22.56 knots (maximum unforced), 23 knots (theoretical maximum), 23.2 knots (argentine bibliography).

- Tier: Honestly, I consider this ship as tier V, but due to the implementation needs in the arming of a branch of battleships, it will be necessary to nerf to tier IV.

On 4/9/2021 at 1:23 PM, Lord_Magus said:

I'm not sure I agree with all 3 of the top-tier "modern" BBs going to Argentina. Seems like Chile ought to get a 2nd ship in the tree. 3 for Brazil, 3 for Argentina and 2 for Chile seems fair.

I'd also really want to see Armstrong 686 as a T7 for Brazil, be it in the tech tree or as a premium. The throwback to pre-dreadnoughts by having 3x2 240mm/50 secondaries (main armament is 4x2 406mm/45) is just too quirky. Plus it's the most "Brazilian" of all the designs, since it was designed (with d'Eyncourt's help) directly by Admiral Bacellar.

So I reviewed it a little more and right now I think I'm going to avoid using this. While I love the lulz of the design I feel the 240mm secondary's may be too much for WG to be okay with. The largest secondary's currently in the game is the 152mm in the Italian BB line. 240mm would be a great deal larger.

 

 

On 4/9/2021 at 5:46 PM, COLDOWN said:

Hello there.

Let me help you with argentine details:

- The Argentine contract was for 3 battleships. The third was optional, it would have mounted 356 mm guns (the designs of the New York class and its towers were offered and its documented) and it was not built because Brazil decided to sell its third dreadnought, the Rio de Janeiro.

- As you have been told, the sunken ship is the San Pablo and not one of the Rivadavia class.

- Hitpoints: 48,800 maximum (from a full displacement of 31,650 long tons).

- Tertiary armament: 16x1 102/50.

- Anti-aircraft armament: 76mm is not real/confirmed so don't consider it.

- Deck Armour: 38mm + 76-51mm (or 38mm + 76-51mm + 38mm if you want to add the bottom of the vessel).

- Anti-torpedo armor (behind the belt!): 76mm + 51mm (or 51mm when disregarding the inclined section).

- Max Speed: 22.56 knots (maximum unforced), 23 knots (theoretical maximum), 23.2 knots (argentine bibliography).

- Tier: Honestly, I consider this ship as tier V, but due to the implementation needs in the arming of a branch of battleships, it will be necessary to nerf to tier IV.

I adjusted some of the state but ultimately agree that it would need to be nerfed in order to make it tier 4.

 

16 hours ago, Lord_Magus said:

Chile hadn't been looking for battleships in 1906 either, but Brazil and then Argentina each purchasing a pair of dreadnoughts left them feeling they had no choice but to respond in kind. Had Saavedra (or whatever she might've been called IRL) actually been built in the 1930s, this surely would've resulted in a similar response by Chile.

Plus like I said, it just seems more inclusive for the line to have more than one ship from each of the "ABC" nations. If only WG would include T2 pre-dreadnoughts in BB lines, it could even be 3 ships each by putting Constitución at that tier. I get they don't want to expend the efforts of modeling such ships that will only get played for about 2 battles before being discarded (to the annoying extent that they even skipped the T3 BB for Italy), but oh well.

While it would be nice to have some more ships from other nations, or even just Chile, there isn't a lot to go with. This is probably the best we can get considering the available designs.

 

1 hour ago, Talleyrand said:

So you want an Asado.
That sentence may grant you that. 

 

What is that and where can I get that?

 

 

Also call out to @COLDOWN for basically being the main reason I even did this. I consider my attempt a poor example of what him and the others who helped me probably could do and I believe are being polite about my substandard idea over all. 

I updated the information to reflect the information provided to correct my errors.

[jor_609]

Here is a drawing that I made of what the Brazilian Tier 7 Premium Design 685A Battleship would look like

[jor_609]

and also from ARA Saavedra

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Talleyrand]

On 4/10/2021 at 6:12 PM, Trophy_Wench said:

My gods you Argentines know how to cook a steak. (Uruguay too but I digress)

Is our religion

 

On 4/10/2021 at 7:15 PM, otakuben said:

I adjusted some of the state but ultimately agree that it would need to be nerfed in order to make it tier 4.

The stronger part of the Rivadavia is the armor of the citadel. She had the 279mm  belt armor, the 76mm "tutrtleback" and them another longitudinal bulkhead of 76mm. Thatsa lot of instances to detonate and absorb the explosion before you get to the citadel.

 

On 4/10/2021 at 7:15 PM, otakuben said:

What is that and where can I get that?

Asado "a la cruz". Tipical Argentine barbacue