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Soshi_Sone

This BB main needs some DD AP Rules of Thumb

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So, as most of you know, I'm a BB main. But I do play DDs now and then.  I only study the nitty gritty pen stuff on rare occasions, mainly overmatch and the like.  In general, I like to work rules of thumb about when it's time to switch between AP to HE And back again.  I've got my rules for BB, but don't have any for DDs and their puny little guns.  So....with that said....anyone have some rules of thumb for this BB main now entering the DD world more often.  Mainly, figuring out when to go from HE to AP.  I can work out the nitty gritty as time goes on...but am more interested in some quick and dirty rules for the swtich. 

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First the standard rule apples to shoot AP at anything broadside. With DD AP you have to be more careful with your aim since the pen is so low. You want to shoot superstructure from a distance, bow or stern when close enough to reliably hit, main belt on cruisers around 4-6km depending tho some DD have high enough pen for longer ranges.

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HE all the time, except for broadside cruisers, but only the wimpy ones. Alaskas & such should get HE. HE is your bread and butter.

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If my He doesn't seem to be doing much I switch. If my AP doesn't seem to be doing much I switch. Once fires are set I tend to switch to AP with BBs and Cruisers.

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BBs: If it's not on fire, shoot HE and get a fire. Exception for flat broadside all-or-nothing BBs with unsaturated ends that you can reliably hit. AP the crap out of those until they saturate.

CAs: Varies by tier and type. Up to T7, your HE generally pens and can be used. T8+ they generally don't unless you have IFHE, so gunboat builds only. AP basically always works as long as you can get the right angles. High velocity guns can cit cruisers from up to 10km in some cases. If you don't HE pen AND can't get a good AP angle, don't shoot at all in most cases.

DDs: Shoot HE 99% of the time. NEVER shoot AP at a broadside DD in a knife fight unless you're in a UK DD with short fuse AP (and ideally Jutland or Daring, which have enhanced autobounce). If you're desperate and German, you can try to use your AP on targets that are diagonal during the turn-out, as there's a narrow window in which you can full pen.

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Depends somewhat on the DD line.  Which line are you currently grinding Soshi?

USN with their high arcs you need to be at closer ranges to get much use out of AP.  Others you can use on broadsides and superstructures from around 8-10 km down.  French DDs with the bigger guns and KM with the better AP can stretch that out a little bit.  RN AP is useful against DDs with less overpens and improved angles.  CLs are easier to get consistent damage against using AP.

No real hard fast rules you just need to experiment with the lines you are grinding.  You will still use HE most of the time.  I like to mess around in COOP just seeing what I can use my AP on and what ranges. 

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As a DD main...

AP TO:

broadside ship. Bow will generally get full pen. Upper belt questionable,  but superstructure for days.

Bow on AP only superstructure if good aim/ballistics,  otherwise HE.

Stern, upper part or any part if British flat.

Angled or at extreme ranges, shoot HE and try to set multiple fires.

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1 hour ago, Swervenkill said:

HE all the time, except for broadside cruisers, but only the wimpy ones. Alaskas & such should get HE. HE is your bread and butter.

What about German and British DDs?  What about against broadside cruisers and battleships at short ranges?  If you're using HE all the time in destroyers you're not playing them right.

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High Tier FR DD AP performance picks up.  If a FR DD can creep in close, some Cruisers have to worry, but mostly CLs, depending on range.  A CL may have to worry but a Zao may laugh if going after the waterline, unless the FR DD is super close.  If you don't put such Cruisers down quick, then unless the Cruiser is distracted, you're in big trouble.

Below is an Artillery Chart with the French 139mm, German 128mm, USN 127mm, all Tier VIII DD guns / shells.  I even threw in Tier X RU DD Khab's 130mm into this.  Tech Tree FR DDs in Tier VIII-X use the same shells, have the same shell flight characteristics, so even Kleber in Tier X has the same shell characteristics as Le Fantasque-class DDs.

shot-21-02-28-09-58-54-0188.jpg

 

The lower in tier you go, Cruisers become more susceptible to ambushes and Citadels from even DD guns.  There are a lot of Cruisers Tier V and below that are very squishy in their armor belts.  I remember spamming shells from Tier III CL Bogatyr 130mm guns and Citadeling the hell out of RNCLs.  I remember Citadeling the ever-living-sh*t out of Emerald, Danae using Gremyaschy and Sims.

If you want comedy, go into Armor Viewer in port and look at the armor belts of Tier V Cruisers Emerald, Omaha, and have a laugh.  After that, then head over and check the same thing in Kotovsky, Kirov, and Mikoyan in the same tier and have a gut busting good time.

Tier IV and below Cruisers are even worse.  When new Cruiser Lines come out, it's usually time to camp and slaughter the low tier ones and give the new ships a proper welcome.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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As a general rule, small-caliber AP doesn't gain as much damage compared to HE as larger calibers do. As an example, 16" AP does about 2.5x the damage of 16" HE, while 5" AP does less than 1.5x the damage of 5" HE — there is much less incentive to fire AP from a DD

Usually it's best to save the AP for after a target is saturated with damage and is taking less damage from HE. At higher tiers it also makes a little sense if most of your shots are breaking instead of doing damage. It's usually not for hunting citadels, since the base damage of small-caliber AP is so low that you will lose more damage from bounces off the heavier armor on the belt than you gain by having a few shells pen for full damage.

 

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Due the reload on many DD's I usually use HE and switch to AP but if the shells just bounce, switch back. Certain ships like Jutland and Daring I load AP most of the time but they are just exceptions due to the improved pen angles.  Most DD's can do decent damage with HE only but don't forget you have AP for those broadside (Especially the close ranged ones) 

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You need to memorize the armor values of almost every ship in the game along with your artillery curve, otherwise you get trolled when you try for AP. 

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4 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

So, as most of you know, I'm a BB main. But I do play DDs now and then.  I only study the nitty gritty pen stuff on rare occasions, mainly overmatch and the like.  In general, I like to work rules of thumb about when it's time to switch between AP to HE And back again.  I've got my rules for BB, but don't have any for DDs and their puny little guns.  So....with that said....anyone have some rules of thumb for this BB main now entering the DD world more often.  Mainly, figuring out when to go from HE to AP.  I can work out the nitty gritty as time goes on...but am more interested in some quick and dirty rules for the swtich. 

Depends on the DD line you're grinding. The Soviet gunboat DD guns can AP pen even BB broadsides at the superstructure. They're so good, they can consistently citadel a lot of cruiser broadsides. French AP is not bad either. IJN just stick to HE unless you're AP-ing broadsiding cruisers. The IJN HE alpha is just too good to not leverage. Not familiar enough with USN, KM, and RN DDs, but I hear KM DDs can almost always use AP unless they're dealing with bow-in tankers.   

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On 3/16/2021 at 12:14 PM, Soshi_Sone said:

So, as most of you know, I'm a BB main. But I do play DDs now and then.  I only study the nitty gritty pen stuff on rare occasions, mainly overmatch and the like.  In general, I like to work rules of thumb about when it's time to switch between AP to HE And back again.  I've got my rules for BB, but don't have any for DDs and their puny little guns.  So....with that said....anyone have some rules of thumb for this BB main now entering the DD world more often.  Mainly, figuring out when to go from HE to AP.  I can work out the nitty gritty as time goes on...but am more interested in some quick and dirty rules for the swtich. 

Broadside paper cruisers of same tier. Maybe 1 tiver upper. thats yo ucan try AP, the rest is HE.
Paper = weak, thin. Smolensk, some IJN, seattle.

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2021 at 1:40 PM, Aaron_S_Merrill said:

What about German and British DDs?  What about against broadside cruisers and battleships at short ranges?  If you're using HE all the time in destroyers you're not playing them right.

Unless it works for you and you win allot then your are playing them right.

 

My recommendation is when you have the side of a CA or BB use you AP, but switch often. Against DD mainly use HE unless your in UK DD.  Certain Russian, French and German DDs can use AP against cruisers to great effect.  Especially mid tier cruisers

Edited by vikingno2

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On 3/16/2021 at 1:40 PM, Aaron_S_Merrill said:

What about German and British DDs?  What about against broadside cruisers and battleships at short ranges?  If you're using HE all the time in destroyers you're not playing them right.

I tend to think that if I'm "that close", then I was intending to use torpedoes instead of guns.

As for @Soshi_Sone's original "rule of thumb" question....?
I don't switch from using HE while playing DD's, UNLESS the juicy broadside of a cruiser or a known-to-be vulnerable portion of a BB is within range and I have a very good chance of hitting it.
Even then, I'm not gonna cry if I just keep using HE and aim at vulnerable portions of a target ship in an attempt to set fire to it (since an uncontrolled fire will do more damage than one DD projectile in most situations).

There are targets that have strong secondary battery suites, and a DD will quickly be shredded if it remains within their range. 
Only be inside that zone for a serious purpose, like a point-blank delivery of a full salvo of torpedoes.

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Target:

DD: shoot HE

CA: shoot HE, AP when broadside, aim upper belt unless point blank/punchy guns (German, high tier Frenchies)

CL: shoot AP when broadside, aim citadel. HE when angled

BB: shoot HE until it is burning at least 2 fires, never go for main belt.

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