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AdmiralThunder

Italian BB 90MM Secondary Guns Need Buff

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Tagging in @Hapa_Fodder here in the hopes people will respond to this and he will pass it up the line...

The 90MM secondary guns on the ITL BB's need a small buff. Just a small one and not some earth shaking change that will suddenly make them OP (LOL @ ITL BB's being OP :Smile_veryhappy:).

The problem is all of the 90MM secondary guns, regardless of tier (same stats T6-T10), only have a 15MM pen. 15MM is insufficient, even with IFHE, to pen the vast majority of armor on the ships these BB's face and that includes DD's. IFHE brings the pen value to 18.75MM which for some reason in game does not get rounded up to 19MM. So at best you can only get those 90MM guns to 18MM. That does almost nothing. They have a decent ROF and the 5% fire chance is "ok" but the guns do almost no damage. It is like they aren't even there.  

If those 90MM guns were buffed just ONE MM to a base pen of 16MM that could pen some armor for the lower tier BB's and with IFHE it would bump pen to 20MM so they would actually be able to pen some armor for all of them (ie; tier). I would respectfully ask that WG look into this. It isn't a buff that drastically changes the BB's or increases their effectiveness. It is a small change that brings one weapon they have from totally useless to partially useful. 

15MM pen...

  • T5 - 15MM can pen some or all of the armor on DD's, Cruisers, and BB superstructure
  • T6 - 15MM can pen DD and Cruiser superstructure (1 or 2 DD and Leander that can also have bow and stern penned), CV superstructure and a few other areas on a couple, and NOTHING on ANY BB (not even superstructure)
  • T7 - 15MM can pen DD superstructure, Cruiser superstructure (also bow & stern on Fiji and Belfast and then bow/stern/hull plating on Atlanta and Flint), and NOTHING on ANY BB (not even superstructure)
  • T8 - 15MM can pen DD superstructure, superstructure on some Cruisers (mostly CL), CV superstructure (and a few odd pieces on Kaga), and NOTHING on ANY BB (not even superstructure)
  • T9 - 15MM can pen DD superstructure, Seattle/Dmitri Donskoi/Neptune superstructure, and NOTHING on ANY BB (not even superstructure)
  • T10 - 15MM can pen DD superstructure, Alexander Nevsky/Minotaur superstructure, CV superstructure, and NOTHING on ANY BB (not even superstructure)

So as I have shown 15MM of pen is pretty useless. It is compounded by the fact secondary guns automatically shoot for the hull and only at max range (where accuracy is at its worst) do shells regularly hit higher up where the areas they can pen are. 

Adding IFHE to the 15MM only achieves 18MM of in game pen (18.75 actual but not rounded up) which breaks the 16MM threshold allowing a bit more pen of areas 15MM can't but it is a small gain and mostly benefits the lower/mid tier range with little value at higher tiers. However, if the base pen was moved to 16MM, while you would get that slight increase in vulnerable ships adding IFHE to a 15MM pen gets now, it would mean with IFHE the pen would be 20MM and that breaks an important armor threshold of 19MM. 19MM lets you pen DD hulls, some bow/stern/hull plating on Cruisers and CV's, and the superstructure of BB's.  The 90MM guns would actually be of some use at that point.

15MM of pen just is not sufficient. The 90MM guns aren't even good AA guns. Please consider this small buff that is not going to significantly increase the offense of these BB's but rather at least make it somewhat useable.

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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Instead of some arbitrary buff, I would simply give them SAP shell. That would bump their penetration to 22mm in exchange of their fire chance, making them quite potent against DD, and even able to do some damage to BB superstructure and some light cruisers.

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The Italian secondaries are a trap. They look like they could be kinda good, but then you get 247 secondary hits for under 10,000 damage, and you know all the hits are 3.5" shells, and all the damage is from 6" shells. 

You might farm huge numbers of hits in co-op though I guess, so if you need to farm secondary hits it could turn out better than the German ships since you're not doing damage with them.

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They need a protection buff. All of them are at least 4000 base hit points lower than other nations' BBs of the same tier. The good torpedo protection they have cannot compensate for that against heavy AP. Either that or tighten up their main battery dispersion by 10 meters across the board to give them the ability to counterpunch hard. The SAP I find pretty good as it is. AP is a bit meh. AA is decent except at T4/5, which is par for all low-tier BBs. I put rudder shift on Andrea Doria as a test given the slow turret traverse and it works OK on that ship. Helps with dodging torps as well.

I don't rely on Italian secondaries at all due to the low DPM.

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@AdmiralThunder, Thanks for posting and I was going to reach out to you as to your thoughts on this specific topic. I too had calculated the value of IFHE for th 90 mm secondaries and saw that they was still wanting and per another post above argue that we need some form of increase in penetration (like the IJN 100 mms), an incrementally large gun diameter or have SAP rounds being fired.

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They have ...De spittabala secondaries.  She fires de meatabalås at the enemy. They are a great fire works display.

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I asked for them all to be changed to SAP secondaries and that should solve it. while no fires, they should be debilitating to any ship that approaches. 

Remember when WG wanted Stalingrad to only fire AP? 

It can be done. Early in game most secbats where AP based or mixed, then WG made them HE. But Italian line is only SAP line.

WG either goes all the way or they are just not taking the line seriously. 90mm is not much even with high velocity. it can only do so much. tweaking pen is only going to make German line players mad or cry. 

The 155mm guns could be left HE if WG chooses, but again, mixed secbats is always a thorn in player grievances. so please WG, don't go there.

I think SAP and I mean good SAP pen like secondary on BBs should have same as cruisers on down will benefit greatly. 

Sure, no fires. German players will rejoice, do vogue dancing in tight leather pants and spectacles, but will be fuming as they get mad alpha from SAP as they approach. 

But so what? Italians do it better! Just nice and clean. No horsey in bed. That was a Hollywood thing ya know. 

Just get close, get whacked. Quo vadis, watch Victor Mature nose captains crush easy on the eyes German captains. 

In comes Nelson, with her big...and both captains go....

BOOM!

Edited by SteelRain_Rifleman
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1 hour ago, chrisope said:

Ran out of emoticons for this post, so thank you @Admiral_Thunder good idea and post!

Yes, there is a massive emoticon shortage. Seems an emotional player outbursted and emoted and eventually started to use memes, gifs, jifs, and got peanut butter on his face. 

It got sticky with post its and memos of different colors. Peeps were Zooming about. Discord was sewn and rendered asunder with fire. Reddit became illegible. 

We may have to go back to Morse soon for morose conversation. 

This had more puns than Congress had sense. 

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27 minutes ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

This had more puns than Congress had sense. 

Very punny indeed!  :cap_haloween::cap_fainting::Smile_veryhappy:

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5 hours ago, Karstodes said:

Instead of some arbitrary buff, I would simply give them SAP shell. That would bump their penetration to 22mm in exchange of their fire chance, making them quite potent against DD, and even able to do some damage to BB superstructure and some light cruisers.

 

4 hours ago, DJC_499 said:

@AdmiralThunder, Thanks for posting and I was going to reach out to you as to your thoughts on this specific topic. I too had calculated the value of IFHE for th 90 mm secondaries and saw that they was still wanting and per another post above argue that we need some form of increase in penetration (like the IJN 100 mms), an incrementally large gun diameter or have SAP rounds being fired.

 

2 hours ago, SteelRain_Rifleman said:

I asked for them all to be changed to SAP secondaries and that should solve it. while no fires, they should be debilitating to any ship that approaches. 

Remember when WG wanted Stalingrad to only fire AP? 

It can be done. Early in game most secbats where AP based or mixed, then WG made them HE. But Italian line is only SAP line.

WG either goes all the way or they are just not taking the line seriously. 90mm is not much even with high velocity. it can only do so much. tweaking pen is only going to make German line players mad or cry. 

The 155mm guns could be left HE if WG chooses, but again, mixed secbats is always a thorn in player grievances. so please WG, don't go there.

I think SAP and I mean good SAP pen like secondary on BBs should have same as cruisers on down will benefit greatly. 

Sure, no fires. German players will rejoice, do vogue dancing in tight leather pants and spectacles, but will be fuming as they get mad alpha from SAP as they approach. 

But so what? Italians do it better! Just nice and clean. No horsey in bed. That was a Hollywood thing ya know. 

Just get close, get whacked. Quo vadis, watch Victor Mature nose captains crush easy on the eyes German captains. 

In comes Nelson, with her big...and both captains go....

BOOM!

Personally I would rather see the 90MM guns retain HE rounds and just get that 1MM buff in pen. SAP round can not start fires at all and the ammo will bounce for nothing when hitting angled targets (HE will too but there is at least a fire chance). If the 1st poster is correct that SAP for 90MM would = 22MM pen that really doesn't do any more than 20MM does with HE and IFHE; and again no fire chance. 

The other caliber secondary guns for the ITL BB's are fine pen wise and I would not want them to be swapped to SAP and lose their fire chance too.

Just keep the HE and buff 90MM pen by 1MM and they suddenly are useful.

JMHO.

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5 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Personally I would rather see the 90MM guns retain HE rounds and just get that 1MM buff in pen. SAP round can not start fires at all and the ammo will bounce for nothing when hitting angled targets (HE will too but there is at least a fire chance). If the 1st poster is correct that SAP for 90MM would = 22MM pen that really doesn't do any more than 20MM does with HE and IFHE; and again no fire chance. 

The other caliber secondary guns for the ITL BB's are fine pen wise and I would not want them to be swapped to SAP and lose their fire chance too. 

Just keep the HE and buff 90MM pen by 1MM and they suddenly are useful.

JMHO.

with SAP the damage per shell would rise up to roughly 2 000 (if the ratio between HE and SAP is keep). And with 2.5% fire chance with IFHE, I doubt that you would start that many fire (once fire prevention and fire resistance are factored, you drop at nearly 1% fire chance before flags), so it would be workable without giving them some special rules.

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