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awildseaking

Revert the Captain Retraining Changes Now

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I know this has relatively slipped past with the ongoing deadeye/rebork/CV outrage, but I wanted to share just how disastrous this change is for new players. I hadn't really looked into it much because I was playing T8s and T9s where I didn't need to retrain, but I finally decided to start resetting tech trees for research points. I did the KM BB line because GK will never be meta and the T5-9 are all solid and quick grinds. At first, I was dismayed that I couldn't really bring my 19 point GK captain down to T5. I would need more exp with the commander than the ship itself to activate my skills, but unlike before, none of the skills will activate. No more half effects during retraining. In order to have some sort of commander skills, I took a spare 3 point commander that I hadn't used just so I could have a few basic skills. When I get to T8 and 9, I'll probably use the 19 point since you can't really be competitive at those tiers without CE and FP, but this really raises questions about the effect of this change for new players.

First off, this new system encourages players to have dedicated commanders that are exclusive to a single ship. New players will never have these benefits and clubbers don't have any issue as they intend to play these tiers for the sake of it.

Second, new players have to play with zero skills every time they move up a tier for a decent number of battles. With most battles being 2 tiers apart, this means a lot of pain and suffering for anyone moving up the tech trees as the gaps between no skills and lots of skills widens. Having no points or three points wasn't an issue for me at T5, but I'm not a new player, nor am I an average player. The only ways to bypass these limitations are doubloons and ECXP and new players will have neither of these.  If I was just starting the game today, I already would have quit.

Third, this completely defeats the purpose of having a build for each ship class on a single captain. Once you get past a few points, the retraining costs are prohibitive. If I ever get a 21 point commander, I refuse to retrain them and I will not pay real money for something that used to be free. I've lost all interest in finishing the last few T9 ships I have because I refuse to play T10 ships with 0 point commanders for nearly a hundred games just to activate my commander.

I didn't notice these changes at first, but I've seen a lot more players at mid and high tiers who seem to have no active commander skills. Lighting fires has never been easier and tons of people are unable to disengage with their concealment ballooning. I know Deadeye and the removal of cruiser survivability skills has caused a lot of damage to the meta itself, but I consider this commander retraining change the most shameful thing WG has ever done. It should be reverted effective immediately. Monetizing in-game advantages is P2W, plain and simple.

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You do know you can retrain captains on a premium ship right? I assume you have also noticed that WG is constantly giving out free premiums in events all the time right?

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I'm missing something here.

We have always had to pay in one form or another to move captains up the tech tree with the ship unlocks.  Yes the loss of the 50% skills while under retraining is a hindrance. 

 

For myself I have never liked playing tier X as the fun for me is unlocking the modules and the next ship/class/tier.  None of this happens at tier X.

P2W.  well, this is WG and the same cost P2W model has been working well in WOT for over 10years.  Wows will be 6 this year (if I recall correctly), so clearly, P2W is a successful model.

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3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Once you get past a few points, the retraining costs are prohibitive. If I ever get a 21 point commander, I refuse to retrain them and I will not pay real money for something that used to be free.

You know, you can retrain with

  • Dubs
    • OR
  • Captain skill pts...

These option have been around for years maybe ? I mean, when I first noticed... It was 2 yrs ago...


You can forgo the retraining requirement on a new ship only for a cpt, transfer  from a premium ship to premium ship.

This is nothing new and WG is not going to change it anytime soon

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3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

First off, this new system encourages players to have dedicated commanders that are exclusive to a single ship.

What on earth makes you think this? And even if we imagine that it's true, how is this different from before? Justify your reasoning.

3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Second, new players have to play with zero skills every time they move up a tier for a decent number of battles.

This is also wrong. They can leave a captain in a ship and buy a new one; 6-point commanders can be bought up-front for credits. Insofar as moving them up is concerned, premium ships at low and mid tier are available for most nations for retraining. When the Marco Polo comes in, expensive as it may be, all the nations with a tech tree will have at least one free premium.

LOW TIER:

Yubari (IJN), Campbeltown (RN), Charleston (USN)

MID TIER:

Hill, Marblehead (US), soon Oklahoma (collection prize for coal crates from 0.10.5 onward); Duke of York, Nelson (RN); Aigle (France), Anshan (Pan-Asia), Blyskawica (Euro), Lazo (USSR), Kirov (USSR).

HIGH TIER:

Azuma, Yoshino, Hayate (IJN), Agir, Pommern, Z-44 (Germany), Friesland (Euro), Salem (US), Moskva (USSR), soon Marco Polo (Italy).

 

One thing I'd like to see is one of the older Italian premium cruisers, probably Duca d'Aosta, made into a coal ship, and maybe find a Japanese and German premium to stick into T6 or T7 somewhere so that all the nations are affordable at mid tier. I haven't listed Shinonome here since she requires at least one Tier 8 ship to complete the campaign for her, but all the rest can be acquired for coal or FXP through low/mid tier play.  I also haven't included premiums that were given out as halfway prizes in Dockyard events (Graf Spee, Tachibana, Yahagi), since somebody coming into the game right this second would have missed out on that, but I don't discount there being more of those in the future.

Getting back to your first point, with premium ships in hand, every tech-tree commander of that nation in any ship has the ability to carry a different variant build for a premium of a different type, WITHOUT compromising the build for their tech-tree ship. That was impossible beforehand. There's never been a better reason to experiment with builds, and there have never before been as many free premium ships to do it with.

3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

Once you get past a few points, the retraining costs are prohibitive.

How many is a few? It's difficult for me to see this complaint as anything other than "I don't have the patience to retrain my captains." And I had to do that back in the days before I had a 19 point captain and before I was putting money into the game. Admittedly back then we had the intermittent bonuses of the Space Battles and Halloween events, but remember also that now the dailies give 1000 ECXP per day, and that every commander earns ECXP (albeit at a trickle rate). It's not impossible to get, and it's nothing less than a damned lie to suggest that newer players can't get a hold of it. Retraining costs have been HALVED by the captain rework; i.e. it's exactly like the old "pay 200K credits" option except you don't have to pay the 200K credits any more.

 

Someone with as many battles as you have ought to know better. If we were still where we were when I came into the game I might give your "concerns" some credence, but at the moment it's never been easier for newer players to get their hands on premium ships and all your complaints are coming across to me as easily debunked horsetwaddle.

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7 hours ago, awildseaking said:

At first, I was dismayed that I couldn't really bring my 19 point GK captain down to T5. I would need more exp with the commander than the ship itself to activate my skills, but unlike before, none of the skills will activate. No more half effects during retraining. In order to have some sort of commander skills, I took a spare 3 point commander that I hadn't used just so I could have a few basic skills. When I get to T8 and 9, I'll probably use the 19 point since you can't really be competitive at those tiers without CE and FP, but this really raises questions about the effect of this change for new players.

First off, this new system encourages players to have dedicated commanders that are exclusive to a single ship. New players will never have these benefits and clubbers don't have any issue as they intend to play these tiers for the sake of it.

Second, new players have to play with zero skills every time they move up a tier for a decent number of battles. With most battles being 2 tiers apart, this means a lot of pain and suffering for anyone moving up the tech trees as the gaps between no skills and lots of skills widens. Having no points or three points wasn't an issue for me at T5, but I'm not a new player, nor am I an average player. The only ways to bypass these limitations are doubloons and ECXP and new players will have neither of these.  If I was just starting the game today, I already would have quit.

Third, this completely defeats the purpose of having a build for each ship class on a single captain. Once you get past a few points, the retraining costs are prohibitive. If I ever get a 21 point commander, I refuse to retrain them and I will not pay real money for something that used to be free. I've lost all interest in finishing the last few T9 ships I have because I refuse to play T10 ships with 0 point commanders for nearly a hundred games just to activate my commander.

I didn't notice these changes at first, but I've seen a lot more players at mid and high tiers who seem to have no active commander skills. Lighting fires has never been easier and tons of people are unable to disengage with their concealment ballooning. I know Deadeye and the removal of cruiser survivability skills has caused a lot of damage to the meta itself, but I consider this commander retraining change the most shameful thing WG has ever done. It should be reverted effective immediately. Monetizing in-game advantages is P2W, plain and simple.

Ok, some observations from the perspective of a "new" player who retrained his captains while going up the tiers:

  • Not all skills were 50% effective, the crucial ones (CE, PT) were off until 100% complete
  • As a new player you never ever needed to retrain a high level captain, most retrains are in the range of levels 6-12 which are very painless and mostly doable in Ops/Coop if you don't want to trash your Random stats
  • As a new player you now generate ECXP just by playing normally, it helps a lot. I recently was able to instantly retrain a captain for about 15k ECXP which previously I never could do.
  • The skill rework actually helps a lot because you can use just one premium ship to retrain all your captains from every ship type of that nation.
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31 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Ok, some observations from the perspective of a "new" player who retrained his captains while going up the tiers:

  • Not all skills were 50% effective, the crucial ones (CE, PT) were off until 100% complete
  • As a new player you never ever needed to retrain a high level captain, most retrains are in the range of levels 6-12 which are very painless and mostly doable in Ops/Coop if you don't want to trash your Random stats
  • As a new player you now generate ECXP just by playing normally, it helps a lot. I recently was able to instantly retrain a captain for about 15k ECXP which previously I never could do.
  • The skill rework actually helps a lot because you can use just one premium ship to retrain all your captains from every ship type of that nation.

I'm pretty sure CE was still 50% effective, because it was a numerical skill not a binary skill. Like, PT didn't work because how can you be 50% effective at showing the number of people targeting you? But CE is just -5% concealment instead of -10%. And a 5% reduction is still pretty useful to a DD. Could be wrong though.

I agree about the ECXP generation. I think the ECXP generation is actually mainly useful to new players (whether intentionally or not), which is a pretty good change for them. For people with high level commanders, it just doesn't make sense. To retrain a 15 point commander you need 50k ECXP. To get this slowly through the 5% ECXP, you would have earned a total of 1 million CXP, which is 149k CXP off of a 17 point commander.  At best combined with the 1k ECXP in the daily missions you might nearly have 1 retraining during your grind (which is actually still better than before). A 19 point commander retraining requires the grinding of 2.5 million CXP, which is only 200k CXP from a 21 pointer. In contrast, a 10 point commander takes 12.5k ECXP, which requires grinding out 250k CXP. which is basically an 11 point captain. If they're playing multiple lines, this is doable once.

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I might be wrong about the CE value, haven't really played "for real" with a Captain under retraining for a long time. 

About the retraining of high level captains, it has ever been a costly issue afaik. Nothing really changed there and certainly it is not an issue for newer players, for example my highest level captain right now has 16 points, already at T8. Progressing further involves investing more money/resources and if you play with a bit of planning, you plan for your captains settling on their intended destination ship once they have a high-ish level to avoid retraining.

Coupling with the change to Ranked, now you have available a steady income of doubloons to pay for a retrain here or there. IMO, new players are far better now than before.

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37 minutes ago, RulerOdin said:

because how can you be 50% effective at showing the number of people targeting you?

Imagining a scenario here where RNG rolls even for "show this" and odd for "don't", so you might or might not be aware that a Colorado has your Omaha's broadside... :Smile_trollface:

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Imagining a scenario here where RNG rolls even for "show this" and odd for "don't", so you might or might not be aware that a Colorado has your Omaha's broadside... :Smile_trollface:

It would be even funnier if it rolled every 5 seconds or so to check whether to tell you how many people are aiming at you. Just sailing along and then it suddenly jumps from 0 to 6. Though that honestly sounds like the standard Omaha experience.

 

1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Coupling with the change to Ranked, now you have available a steady income of doubloons to pay for a retrain here or there. IMO, new players are far better now than before

Didn't even think of that. Good point.

Edited by RulerOdin

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I'm not sure where the confusion is, but there's definitely a lot of misinformation in here. Retraining on a premium ship is irrelevant. The point was that while you're retraining, regardless of the ship in question, you have zero active skills. That's a serious problem for everyone except the most veteran players because they're going to have the means to skip the retraining. They'll also have an incentive to keep a commander on each ship as they won't be progressing through tech trees. In case I wasn't clear enough, one of the issues with this retraining system is that new players progressing through trees will never activate their commander skills in time. The retraining becomes so cost prohibitive that by the time they finish it, they'll already have unlocked the next ship in the tech tree and they'll start the process all over again. This isn't just an issue for new players though. It's also an issue for anyone who wants to farm research points as you'll be forced to keep restarting with lower skill commanders since there's no cost effective way to use higher skill commanders when you restart. This too worsens the gap between the most veteran players and everyone else because dedicated players are fine grinding at whatever tier they pick to get to 21 points, but anyone who wants to move around and not have 50 different captains will find themselves underequipped.

The dollar cost of retraining any captain is $2 per retraining and the ECXP cost is 25% of the exp required for the last commander point. For a 19 pointer, this means 125k. For a 21 pointer, this means 300k. That is absolutely ridiculous and shame on WG for thinking anyone should pay this. Aside from the fact the majority of players will not be able to earn any ECXP for quite a long time until we get 21 point commanders, assuming you're good at the game, that's at least several hundred games of grinding with a 21 pointer for a single retraining. That's what you'll have to do if you don't want to waste real money doing something that used to be free and insanely cheap. Remember, you're playing with zero skills while you do these grinds. You used to play with half activated skills if you paid 200k credits to skip half the grind. The exp requirements are technically lower, but I would rather pay 200k to have some skills than be forced to pay real money.

This system encourages having a dedicated commander for each ship because the costs are prohibitive to move them anywhere else. In the amount of time it takes you to retrain a higher skill commander, you could have just started a new one and played with a few skills. The only way to circumvent this awful system is to have a 21 point commander and to grind for days on end with just that commander. In the interim, there is no "free" solution as you have to be a whale to have 21 point commanders at this point. Every time I reset a tech tree for RP, I'll have a better gaming experience and save a lot of time and money starting a new commander every single time. Do note that once I'm done with them, they'll be cost prohibitive once again, meaning the only thing I can do is dismiss them for some ECXP which, keep in mind has a 10:1 credit:exp cost. Realistically you will have a 14-16 point commander by the time you reach T10, meaning that each time you reset the tree, instead of paying ~1m credits in total for all the retrainings, you'll be paying 3-4m to dismiss the commander and salvage something from the grind. As is, I'm going to have hundreds of commanders pile up and do nothing since dismissal is also cost prohibitive. Absolutely shameful WG.

Buying a 6 pointer is not a solution and I'm sorry but you're a WG shill for suggesting it is. That's 900k credits every time you do it, further increasing the cost to new players. The first few points have such a low exp threshold that you will actually earn more commander EXP by playing with a new captain than paying 900k for 6 points. It also completely misses the point of why the commander skill disparity is an issue. WG could at least take us out to dinner if they're going to [edited] us this hard. 6 points doesn't do crap. You get the most basic skills, which are preferable to none, but you don't have any of the game-altering skills that you need. No CE, no FP, no Deadeye, no ability to double/triple up on SE/SI/AR, etc.

Before this garbage rework, the player choices were between having some skills for 200k credits or no skills for half the grind and some skills for the other half. There are no choices anymore. You either spend real money or play with no skills for the same length of grind as before. Eventually, however many months it takes you, you will get a 21 point commander which you then have to grind for weeks on end in order to be able to do one retraining for "free." Keep in mind that this is the timeframe for players like me who are starting from 19 points. If I was new today, it could take me well over a year just to get one 21 point commander, and what if I don't want to slave away forever?

There's a lot of entitlement in this thread. I see the same tired and [edited] thinking from WoT players who think that they're entitled to torture new players because they got here first. I don't lack "patience" and that's rich coming from people who play less than me. The difference between most of you and myself is that I'm good enough at the game to realize the difference between advantages I have as a player and advantages I have because I've been here since launch. I just didn't fully appreciate and understand the disparity until I actually gave myself a reason to go back down to lower tiers with RP grinds. That's why I said if I was a new player today, I already would have quit and never come back. That's how unreasonable these grinds are and don't give me the company line about whaling because I'm a bigger whale than all of you combined. I'm one of the players that keeps the lights on here and I want a return on my investment. I hope this game gets better and I hope I'll have other people to play against in the future. The server population continues to dwindle and new players keep getting shafted and put at in-game disadvantages. I have no problem with monetization, but don't monetize gameplay. Don't monetize skills that literally make you more powerful in game. That is shameful and a new low for WG. I know they're desperate for cash, but they've never been this exploitative before and they're killing this game at a breakneck pace.

There are some theories that WG reorganized and took the "good" devs we know from the WoWS team over to WoT and I'm starting to believe them myself. Several years ago, when captains were reworked for the first time, WG removed 5 point skills and inverted the exp tables so that it took less exp to start and more exp for each subsequent point. They did this at the time because they understood that hiding serious in game advantages behind a grind means torturing players for however long it takes them. The newer (and generally worse) they are, the longer that grind is and the more frustrating it becomes. During 2015 and 16, I actually quit WoWS on multiple occasions for months at a time because of this. I always played every available tech tree to maximize my time with daily win bonuses, but my favorites were DDs. I still have awful memories about playing something like stock T6 Mutsuki with 6km torps and ~7km concealment because I was a new player and needed 15 points on my commander to get CE. It was truly awful and the first rework was one of the best changes WG ever made to this game. For the past 2 years in WoWS, that was really 10 points for most ships and 14 points for BB, which was far too high but still an improvement. Now that cost has been upped for every single ship and I could not be more disappointed with WG on this matter.

Edited by awildseaking
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10 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

The point was that while you're retraining, regardless of the ship in question, you have zero active skills.

You sure about that cause the game says otherwise.

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1 hour ago, awildseaking said:

Before this garbage rework, the player choices were between having some skills for 200k credits or no skills for half the grind and some skills for the other half. There are no choices anymore. You either spend real money or play with no skills for the same length of grind as before. Eventually, however many months it takes you, you will get a 21 point commander which you then have to grind for weeks on end in order to be able to do one retraining for "free." Keep in mind that this is the timeframe for players like me who are starting from 19 points. If I was new today, it could take me well over a year just to get one 21 point commander, and what if I don't want to slave away forever?

I definitely agree that the removal of 50% effectiveness was entirely unwarranted. I think the biggest offender is CE, and after that SE (if that was ever half effective). The 5% concealment buff is still considerable, and concealment is vital for nearly all DDs. I still have vague memories of Mahan without CE. That felt awful, and there was still only 2 DD lines so it's not like there was a Cossack hunting you down with 5.5km conceal like you can get now.

 

1 hour ago, awildseaking said:

The retraining becomes so cost prohibitive that by the time they finish it, they'll already have unlocked the next ship in the tech tree and they'll start the process all over again.

This is factually false in most cases. If you look at the wiki, the retraining costs are as follows:

Spoiler
Level Retraining Cost
1 500
2 750
3 1k
4 1.75k
5 2.5k
6 3.75k
7 5k
8 7.5k
9 10k
10 12.5k
11 15k
12 20k
13 25k
14 37.5k
15 50k
16 62.5k
17 75k
18 87.5k
19 125k
20 200k
21 300k

 

The cost of going from T5 to T6 is around 40k xp (after eyeballing some values using wowsft.com), and at T5 you might have a 7 or 8 pointer if you bought a 6 pointer early on? Retraining is less than a quarter of the total grind. While still prohibitive and frustrating, it's not nearly as bad as you were making it out to be. I'm at 17 points on a Jutland captain after sharing them on a Cossack and using CXP boosting flags and camo and it still would take less than the cost from T9 to T10 to retrain.

 

However, I do still agree with the overall point that the 50% effectiveness removal is ridiculous and should be reverted, though there are some upsides for new players as mentioned earlier which partially counteract it, like the 5% ECXP, or a premium being usable for the whole nation.

Edited by RulerOdin

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4 hours ago, awildseaking said:

The point was that while you're retraining, regardless of the ship in question, you have zero active skills.

This is NOT true of Premium ships, and you know it.

3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

You're suggesting that because you could technically spend hundreds of dollars getting a premium that you like for every nation, that means you can circumvent things by having active skills.

This is an absolute lie because I've already listed ALL the premium ships that could be had for free in the game RIGHT NOW (without touching the Research Bureau or steel).  I'll repeat that list again.

23 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

LOW TIER:

Yubari (IJN), Campbeltown (RN), Charleston (USN)

MID TIER:

Hill, Marblehead (US), soon Oklahoma (collection prize for coal crates from 0.10.5 onward); Duke of York, Nelson (RN); Aigle (France), Anshan (Pan-Asia), Blyskawica (Euro), Lazo (USSR), Kirov (USSR).

HIGH TIER:

Azuma, Yoshino, Hayate (IJN), Agir, Pommern, Z-44 (Germany), Friesland (Euro), Salem (US), Moskva (USSR), soon Marco Polo (Italy).

No, you can't get them all at once - but you can get them all without spending money, and now you don't even need more than one in each nation.

3 hours ago, awildseaking said:

You should buy a ship because you actually like it, not because you want a level playing field.

Or you don't spend money at all. See above.

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