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x_Quinn_x

AA suggestion including actualy using AA with skill.

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So, after thinking about this issue for what has been quite a while I think I have come up with a suggestion that could satisfy both sides of the interaction between surface ship AA and aircraft squadrons. This may have been suggested before but not in this limited interaction system I am suggesting.

Having a manually controlled AA system that can be used all the time is not something that would be very good for the game in reality because it could serve to distract a player and require them to have to do too much in terms of multitasking (and well DD players already think they have too much to do), but what if we could make it so the manual interaction was only available when needed and the player would be able to choose if they want to use it and if they do enter the mode it would automatically return the player to normal view when it is no longer needed or the player can exit the mode themselves before it ends.

ATM when you initiate an attack run with a squadron you are not able to exit the run until the timer runs out and the surface ship can do nothing but wait to see what happens basically being put at the mercy of the squad other than being able to change the ships speed or change its heading. While that seems like the surface ship can do a lot the aircraft themselves are able to counter this to a fairly high degree even when in the attack run. This makes the surface ship feel basically helpless.

My suggestion:

To change this feeling of helplessness when the aircraft are in their attack run the surface ship player would be given a warning on their screen and then a tool tip would come up asking if you wish to enter manual AA aiming mode. You would then have the choice to ignore it or choose to interact with it by pressing a button which takes you to a manual AA screen similar to the view finder. In this mode the finder itself is fixed loosely on the heading of the aircraft squad but still requires an interaction on the players part to aim it properly to direct and fire the AA with a higher precision (not perfect though). On the aircraft squadrons side of things the player would be given an indicator of the direction the AA player is aiming at so they can attempt to avoid the fire by manoeuvring to avoid the heavier damage spots. This would mean the aircraft would be much more manoeuvrable on an attack run than they are currently (maybe even with the ability to move up and down not just side to side), but it would also mean needing to bring your squad back on target to aim and risk loosing aircraft to get that launch off. So the system is not OP the aiming would be subject to a slower movement of the AA guns like how the ships main guns move so it becomes more about anticipating the squadrons movements. It would all need to be balanced so it isn't too easy to shoot the aircraft down while still feeling like you are fighting back.

This system would not be limited to just the targeted surface ship either this would include any ship that is close enough for their manual AA aiming system to engage as well. In fact if you are in a group the combined AA fire in this mode would be pretty deadly for squadrons. Dedicated AA cruisers in this mode could get back that scary amount of AA strength as well if the player using it is good enough in the mode.

This system would add very little in terms of the multitasking level that the player would need as the interaction would first warn the player and then last 10 to 15 seconds at best and can also be ignored if they feel it is not needed at that point in time. Current AA would not need to be changed other than removing the priority sector system which this would replace, and it would satisfy the need for the AA system to have a level of skill from the player to earn the aircraft damage and kills.

 

This is the only way to fix the interaction between CVs and surface ships which gives both sides the feeling that they are actually fighting each other and not simply at the mercy of the other side and making it an enjoyable experience for both.

Thank you for reading. :Smile_izmena:

 

 

                              :CV:

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

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10 minutes ago, x_Quinn_x said:

So, after thinking about this issue for what has been quite a while I think I have come up with a suggestion that could satisfy both sides of the interaction between surface ship AA and aircraft squadrons. This may have been suggested before but not in this limited interaction system I am suggesting.

Having a manually controlled AA system that can be used all the time is not something that would be very good for the game in reality because it could serve to distract a player and require them to have to do too much in terms of multitasking (and well DD players already think they have too much to do), but what if we could make it so the manual interaction was only available when needed and the player would be able to choose if they want to use it and if they do enter the mode it would automatically return the player to normal view when it is no longer needed or the player can exit the mode themselves before it ends.

ATM when you initiate an attack run with a squadron you are not able to exit the run until the timer runs out and the surface ship can do nothing but wait to see what happens basically being put at the mercy of the squad other than being able to change the ships speed or change its heading. While that seems like the surface ship can do a lot the aircraft themselves are able to counter this to a fairly high degree even when in the attack run. This makes the surface ship feel basically helpless.

My suggestion:

To change this feeling of helplessness when the aircraft are in their attack run the surface ship player would be given a warning on their screen and then a tool tip would come up asking if you wish to enter manual AA aiming mode. You would then have the choice to ignore it or choose to interact with it by pressing a button which takes you to a manual AA screen similar to the view finder. In this mode the finder itself is fixed loosely on the heading of the aircraft squad but still requires an interaction on the players part to aim it properly to direct and fire the AA with a higher precision (not perfect though). On the aircraft squadrons side of things the player would be given an indicator of the direction the AA player is aiming at so they can attempt to avoid the fire by manoeuvring to avoid the heavier damage spots. This would mean the aircraft would be much more manoeuvrable on an attack run than they are currently (maybe even with the ability to move up and down not just side to side), but it would also mean needing to bring your squad back on target to aim and risk loosing aircraft to get that launch off. So the system is not OP the aiming would be subject to a slower movement of the AA guns like how the ships main guns move so it becomes more about anticipating the squadrons movements. It would all need to be balanced so it isn't too easy to shoot the aircraft down while still feeling like you are fighting back.

This system would not be limited to just the targeted surface ship either this would include any ship that is close enough for their manual AA aiming system to engage as well. In fact if you are in a group the combined AA fire in this mode would be pretty deadly for squadrons. Dedicated AA cruisers in this mode could get back that scary amount of AA strength as well if the player using it is good enough in the mode.

This system would add very little in terms of the multitasking level that the player would need as the interaction would first warn the player and then last 10 to 15 seconds at best and can also be ignored if they feel it is not needed at that point in time. Current AA would not need to be changed other than removing the priority sector system which this would replace, and it would satisfy the need for the AA system to have a level of skill from the player to earn the aircraft damage and kills.

 

This is the only way to fix the interaction between CVs and surface ships which gives both sides the feeling that they are actually fighting each other and not simply at the mercy of the other side and making it an enjoyable experience for both.

Thank you for reading. :Smile_izmena:

 

 

                              :CV:

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

That unfortunately cancels out the lack of ability presently to fire at planes that are attacking you if any other planes are alive in the squadron.

Once you start an attack run those planes are invulnerable if there is any other planes left to shoot at in the squadron...your system would allow players to shoot at planes that are presently involved in the attack & ignore the other planes...& the setup is not designed for (or wanted) by the devs...as it would remove the "guaranteed to get a 1st strike off" system that is in place presently.

Like the concept...but the devs have basically said no by default...by virtue of the present systems rules.

Your AA is still working (contrary to popular belief) while you are being attacked...just not firing at the attacking planes untill all the rest are dead 1st.

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1 hour ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

That unfortunately cancels out the lack of ability presently to fire at planes that are attacking you if any other planes are alive in the squadron.

Once you start an attack run those planes are invulnerable if there is any other planes left to shoot at in the squadron...your system would allow players to shoot at planes that are presently involved in the attack & ignore the other planes...& the setup is not designed for (or wanted) by the devs...as it would remove the "guaranteed to get a 1st strike off" system that is in place presently.

Not at all.

The system I am talking about works exactly the same way as the attack run does now, but instead of the surface ship waiting for AA to do something they are in control of it and can either succeed or fail based on how well they do and how well the enemy does in dodging it. They are not firing at the rest of the squad just the Aircraft in the attack run same as it does now.

It only replaces the priority sector system.

This changes a perception and makes the system player Vs player not Player Vs RNG.

Whether or not WG choose to change this or not, this is the only reasonable system that can bring the interaction back to a more acceptable level for all involved.

I just want to make sure it is put out as a suggestion to see how players would feel about it is all..... And maybe someone at WG might listen if we are lucky or If not at least I put it out there....

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Thank you for the suggestion.

 

The issues I would like resolved is this:

  1. My planes are on an attack run.  I know flack bursts are predictable with a bit of knowledge I can avoid these as the flak bursts are effectively bots and therefore predictable.  This is not PVP but PVE
  2. My ship is under attack from planes.  Activate Priority sector and wait for RNG to occur.  Any skill base platform is welcome

 

And let's be specific the interaction is between Surface ships and planes.  A small difference as interaction can mean 'being shot at, and shooting back'.  It's a (rare and) happy day for surface ships when the CV is spotted and if it can be shot at.

 

2 hours ago, x_Quinn_x said:

edit

 

This is the only way to fix the interaction between CVs and surface ships which gives both sides the feeling that they are actually fighting each other and not simply at the mercy of the other side and making it an enjoyable experience for both.

Thank you for reading. :Smile_izmena:

 

 

                              :CV:

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

 

 

GL  :Smile_medal:

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34 minutes ago, x_Quinn_x said:

They are not firing at the rest of the squad just the Aircraft in the attack run same as it does now.

Sorry...but you are mistaken on this part...AA only shoots at the other planes until they are all gone before it starts to shoot at the attacking planes.

It's been that way since 0.8.5-7ish I think it was.

If a squadron of 12 planes attacks w/3 planes...you need to shoot down all 9 of the non attacking planes 1st before the AA switches to the 1st plane in the attacking group...

That's the basis of the "guaranteed to get a 1st strike off" design.

It's the same for any squadron no matter how many planes are in the squadron & how many break off to attack...the rest of the squadron must be killed 1st before any of the attacking group gets fired on.

Edit: All continuous AA (no matter how many combined AAs are attacking the squadron) only attacks the 1st plane in the squadron until it dies..& then switched to the next 1st plane in the squadron...the attack groups are pulled from the last planes in the squadron & untill all of the other "1st" planes are dead...they are immune to continuous damage...only flak damage doesn't attack just the 1st plane...but still...attacking planes are always pulled from the planes that are still full health or that have the most health if flak has damaged enough of them to not allow a full attack group w/full health.

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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I've never understood the obsession with manual AA other than for the visual spectacle of Oerlikons and quad Bofors mounts. Active dodging is mandatory in this game, so manual AA firing would never work.

All we really need is actual AA DPS, the return of long range aura so you can actually stop a CV from attacking you, and removal of plane regen.

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4 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

I've never understood the obsession with manual AA other than for the visual spectacle of Oerlikons and quad Bofors mounts. Active dodging is mandatory in this game, so manual AA firing would never work.

All we really need is actual AA DPS, the return of long range aura so you can actually stop a CV from attacking you, and removal of plane regen.

People want to shoot back cause they think it will make them feel better but they will quickly notice that the CV doesn't care about a few plane loses and will still be coming back again and again with full squadrons. 

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21 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

I've never understood the obsession with manual AA other than for the visual spectacle of Oerlikons and quad Bofors mounts. Active dodging is mandatory in this game, so manual AA firing would never work.

All we really need is actual AA DPS, the return of long range aura so you can actually stop a CV from attacking you, and removal of plane regen. 

Manual AA is as essential for a good PvP experience in a ship vs plane scenario as manual main battery guns are in ship to ship combat. It allows players to learn how to better use the existing AA guns to counter the attacking planes, just like you can learn to aim main battery guns. Similarly, you have to learn to dodge and to compensate for dodging. That is basically the skill contest between the two players in the whole game: shoot and drive better than the other player.

The whole fallacy of the automatic system is that it could somehow be fair, balanced, and effective at the same time. If it is to be fair, it has to give both players (ship and plane) the same chance, which it can't since the only player interacting with it is the plane player. So, the ship player only gets to see the results of AI vs human. This result is either in the ship players favor and he deems it fair and effective, or it "failed" and the ship player gets damaged; ergo AA is "useless".

3 hours ago, x_Quinn_x said:

Having a manually controlled AA system that can be used all the time is not something that would be very good for the game in reality because it could serve to distract a player and require them to have to do too much in terms of multitasking (and well DD players already think they have too much to do), but what if we could make it so the manual interaction was only available when needed and the player would be able to choose if they want to use it and if they do enter the mode it would automatically return the player to normal view when it is no longer needed or the player can exit the mode themselves before it ends.

ATM when you initiate an attack run with a squadron you are not able to exit the run until the timer runs out and the surface ship can do nothing but wait to see what happens basically being put at the mercy of the squad other than being able to change the ships speed or change its heading. While that seems like the surface ship can do a lot the aircraft themselves are able to counter this to a fairly high degree even when in the attack run. This makes the surface ship feel basically helpless.

I would think restricting the AA mode to "invitation only" upon being attacked is actually counter-productive in terms of task-overload. You have to decide, act, and adjust fairly quickly when planes are charging you in the midst of battle, without the option to preemptively enter AA mode or to get a feeling for the AA guns without planes present.

I agree with your assessment that surface ship players feel helpless when under attack, especially when you realize that the AA system is actually not designed to protect the ship.

The point of DD players already having enough to do - in my mind at least - is less about the actions per minute or actual task overload (like driving and shooting simultaneously), but much more of and overload in tactical roles and task. Depending on the DD and the situation in particular the tasks of capping, scouting, screening, and fighting other DDs while also torping BBs (and dodging CV attacks) places more demand on the tactical decisions of the DD player. I have no problem of shooting and driving, as well as keeping track of my surroundings. Adding the option of AA would not add a lot of extra burden there. However, something like ASW duty definitely does, because now I would need to be in three places instead of two.

3 hours ago, x_Quinn_x said:

To change this feeling of helplessness when the aircraft are in their attack run the surface ship player would be given a warning on their screen and then a tool tip would come up asking if you wish to enter manual AA aiming mode. You would then have the choice to ignore it or choose to interact with it by pressing a button which takes you to a manual AA screen similar to the view finder. In this mode the finder itself is fixed loosely on the heading of the aircraft squad but still requires an interaction on the players part to aim it properly to direct and fire the AA with a higher precision (not perfect though). On the aircraft squadrons side of things the player would be given an indicator of the direction the AA player is aiming at so they can attempt to avoid the fire by manoeuvring to avoid the heavier damage spots. This would mean the aircraft would be much more manoeuvrable on an attack run than they are currently (maybe even with the ability to move up and down not just side to side), but it would also mean needing to bring your squad back on target to aim and risk loosing aircraft to get that launch off. So the system is not OP the aiming would be subject to a slower movement of the AA guns like how the ships main guns move so it becomes more about anticipating the squadrons movements. It would all need to be balanced so it isn't too easy to shoot the aircraft down while still feeling like you are fighting back.

You could just limit the control to the flak AA component. Instead of having some form of indicator you use the same system currently present for surface ships: tracers. This has the added benefit of helping both players understand the limits in firing rate and shell velocity (reaction time to course corrections), thereby aiding in developing skills in both aiming and dodging. I mean, there is a reason we have these in the game. Similar, you could balance ships AA by how easy it is to shift aim, firing rate, shell velocity etc. Heck, you could even add national flavors to AA apart from range (one nation has fast firing guns with slow shells, another good ballistics but slow traverse etc.).

Having said system available at all times would also make it easier for player to get used to switching between them, similar to how torpedoes are always available. If successful, I would also expand said system to secondary batteries.

Now, to make sure that the people don't get overwhelmed in very stressful situations I would just leave the current system as a legacy backup system. Don't want to switch to AA guns? Leave them in auto mode and everything goes like it is now. Kind of like manual ship control and auto pilot work.

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11 minutes ago, shinytrashcan said:

Manual AA is as essential for a good PvP experience in a ship vs plane scenario as manual main battery guns are in ship to ship combat. It allows players to learn how to better use the existing AA guns to counter the attacking planes, just like you can learn to aim main battery guns. Similarly, you have to learn to dodge and to compensate for dodging. That is basically the skill contest between the two players in the whole game: shoot and drive better than the other player.

The whole fallacy of the automatic system is that it could somehow be fair, balanced, and effective at the same time. If it is to be fair, it has to give both players (ship and plane) the same chance, which it can't since the only player interacting with it is the plane player. So, the ship player only gets to see the results of AI vs human. This result is either in the ship players favor and he deems it fair and effective, or it "failed" and the ship player gets damaged; ergo AA is "useless".

You're assuming WG will let the manual AA be more effective than the automatic system. WG has carefully balanced the AA system to ensure the CV can always get the first strike off in almost any scenario. If they add a manual AA system that allows ships to completely shut down the CV and prevent attacks they will have to buff CV to compensate. If they balance manual AA so that only the best players can outperform the automatic system so as to maintain overall balance than the vast number of potatoes in the game will actually do worse with the manual AA than the automatic AA so they will have to nerf CV to compensate. If they just remove the automatic AA and leave it manual only it would go against WG's policy of making the game simple enough for any idiot. Just adding this seemingly simple feature creates a huge balancing nightmare that I doubt WG wants to deal with after how much money they've already spent on the CV rework.

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I don't think most (non-CV) players want more interaction with the planes. They want to use their guns and torps to kill things. They want the planes to leave them alone because the cost will be too high (selling point for many ships that do have great AA). They want their Defensive AA consumable to once again cause a  reduced accuracy of the attacking planes. The want to feel that they are actually hurting the CV that is attacking them. Current system with the guaranteed first strike and regenerating planes (and permanently destroyed AA) does not provide this even for ships that have decent AA. 

An interactive system would be task overload any time where you have to stop shooting at ships (reason for playing the game for most) to shoot at the damn CV avatars. Just by being nearby the CV just took your guns out of action. Something even WG doesn't currently do as your DP guns can shoot at surface AND air targets at the same time. Failure to use the proposed interactive system would be touted by the CV crowd like "just dodge" as to why YOU have trouble with CVs.

Unless you have AA that shreds the CV planes (usually due to a lower tier CV). the only really satisfying interaction surface players have with CVs is when they can get a target lock on the hull.

Edited by Sabot_100
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8 hours ago, Rouxi said:

You're assuming WG will let the manual AA be more effective than the automatic system. WG has carefully balanced the AA system to ensure the CV can always get the first strike off in almost any scenario. If they add a manual AA system that allows ships to completely shut down the CV and prevent attacks they will have to buff CV to compensate. If they balance manual AA so that only the best players can outperform the automatic system so as to maintain overall balance than the vast number of potatoes in the game will actually do worse with the manual AA than the automatic AA so they will have to nerf CV to compensate. If they just remove the automatic AA and leave it manual only it would go against WG's policy of making the game simple enough for any idiot. Just adding this seemingly simple feature creates a huge balancing nightmare that I doubt WG wants to deal with after how much money they've already spent on the CV rework.

You are not wrong in that this is not a simple fix, such a system needs, of course, very thorough and extensive testing before it could go live. And we all now how often that happened in the past.

However, I am not as pessimistic as you are in terms of balancing. The current system is designed to always allow for people to get a strike through, due to how flak works. Just by making flak "random" by player input it could get a bit more effective, and CV players will have to learn to dodge that, as much as ship players will have to learn to aim it. If you could now shift the focus of the flak from the squadron to the actual strike planes and shoot them down, then this would make AA more effective. My overall idea in this case is to allow players to shoot incoming planes in order to reduce the number of TBs or DBs dropping them, at the cost of having to endure maybe two half drops instead of one full drop, if that makes sense?

Another key aspect is to give the CV player more options to control the planes, so that a good CV player has better chances against flak from a player, than a bad one. The automatic system would need adjusting a bit to account for this though.

4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

An interactive system would be task overload any time where you have to stop shooting at ships (reason for playing the game for most) to shoot at the damn CV avatars. Just by being nearby the CV just took your guns out of action. Something even WG doesn't currently do as your DP guns can shoot at surface AND air targets at the same time. Failure to use the proposed interactive system would be touted by the CV crowd like "just dodge" as to why YOU have trouble with CVs.

How many times when you are under CV attack are you actually shooting at other things? Personally, I would say about 80% of the time when I come under CV attack I am not actively shooting at someone else, in this time I could easily start shooting at planes. For the other instance, think of a different scenario where a two player attack you: two ships shooting at you. Similar to this you would need to prioritize which threat you deal with or what to focus on.

One key thing that would be important is to not force the player into AA mode, players always need to keep full agency over their ship and which target to attack with which weapon, of course.

4 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

I don't think most (non-CV) players want more interaction with the planes. They want to use their guns and torps to kill things. They want the planes to leave them alone because the cost will be too high (selling point for many ships that do have great AA). They want their Defensive AA consumable to once again cause a  reduced accuracy of the attacking planes. The want to feel that they are actually hurting the CV that is attacking them. Current system with the guaranteed first strike and regenerating planes (and permanently destroyed AA) does not provide this even for ships that have decent AA.

I don't know about most players, I might be in the minority here. But to me a PvP game should have balanced interactions ("you get to shoot at me, I can shoot at you", even if one guy has a shotgun and the other a sniper rifle), something the CV and AA system currently is not, as AA is fully automated. This automated system can't be really balanced, by design.

Actively shooting down planes and having agency over how many planes come through is important, and I think when more player experience it, they will see its merit. Now, this does not absolve WG from balancing this systemt, of course. If the manual AA is too weak and ineffective, then it would need to be buffed so players can do something with it. But that is the whole point: create something that players can use and that can be balanced!

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14 hours ago, x_Quinn_x said:

So, after thinking about this issue for what has been quite a while I think I have come up with a suggestion that could satisfy both sides of the interaction between surface ship AA and aircraft squadrons. This may have been suggested before but not in this limited interaction system I am suggesting.

Having a manually controlled AA system that can be used all the time is not something that would be very good for the game in reality because it could serve to distract a player and require them to have to do too much in terms of multitasking (and well DD players already think they have too much to do), but what if we could make it so the manual interaction was only available when needed and the player would be able to choose if they want to use it and if they do enter the mode it would automatically return the player to normal view when it is no longer needed or the player can exit the mode themselves before it ends.

ATM when you initiate an attack run with a squadron you are not able to exit the run until the timer runs out and the surface ship can do nothing but wait to see what happens basically being put at the mercy of the squad other than being able to change the ships speed or change its heading. While that seems like the surface ship can do a lot the aircraft themselves are able to counter this to a fairly high degree even when in the attack run. This makes the surface ship feel basically helpless.

My suggestion:

To change this feeling of helplessness when the aircraft are in their attack run the surface ship player would be given a warning on their screen and then a tool tip would come up asking if you wish to enter manual AA aiming mode. You would then have the choice to ignore it or choose to interact with it by pressing a button which takes you to a manual AA screen similar to the view finder. In this mode the finder itself is fixed loosely on the heading of the aircraft squad but still requires an interaction on the players part to aim it properly to direct and fire the AA with a higher precision (not perfect though). On the aircraft squadrons side of things the player would be given an indicator of the direction the AA player is aiming at so they can attempt to avoid the fire by manoeuvring to avoid the heavier damage spots. This would mean the aircraft would be much more manoeuvrable on an attack run than they are currently (maybe even with the ability to move up and down not just side to side), but it would also mean needing to bring your squad back on target to aim and risk loosing aircraft to get that launch off. So the system is not OP the aiming would be subject to a slower movement of the AA guns like how the ships main guns move so it becomes more about anticipating the squadrons movements. It would all need to be balanced so it isn't too easy to shoot the aircraft down while still feeling like you are fighting back.

This system would not be limited to just the targeted surface ship either this would include any ship that is close enough for their manual AA aiming system to engage as well. In fact if you are in a group the combined AA fire in this mode would be pretty deadly for squadrons. Dedicated AA cruisers in this mode could get back that scary amount of AA strength as well if the player using it is good enough in the mode.

This system would add very little in terms of the multitasking level that the player would need as the interaction would first warn the player and then last 10 to 15 seconds at best and can also be ignored if they feel it is not needed at that point in time. Current AA would not need to be changed other than removing the priority sector system which this would replace, and it would satisfy the need for the AA system to have a level of skill from the player to earn the aircraft damage and kills.

 

This is the only way to fix the interaction between CVs and surface ships which gives both sides the feeling that they are actually fighting each other and not simply at the mercy of the other side and making it an enjoyable experience for both.

Thank you for reading. :Smile_izmena:

 

 

                              :CV:

:cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo::cap_rambo:

WG isn't the least bit interested in player suggestions, even more so anything that might hurt their precious flying monkeys.

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