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Deadeye / Manual Secondaries - A way to shift skills and fix the issue

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WG,

The reason BBs are in the back is not because deadeye turned them into snipers but rather because of the two main categories of BB's, long range (accuracy tables improve at longer range) and brawlers (accuracy table improve the closer the range is plus their speed or armor benefits them at close range engagements). Problem is, the brawlers have lost the secondary gun ability to actually brawl. 

It does not matter that secondary gun range is increased nor that on paper secondaries that shoot out of both sides while one side has the 30% dispersion reduction ends up adding up to more damage... because that damage is INEFFECTIVE damage. A brawling BB pushing the front needs to be able to prioritize a target to bring down so its secondaries can kick in while main guns reload. A brawling BB needs to be able to react to a destroyer that becomes visible as it comes in to a torpedo run or comes out of a corner or to finish off a wounded cruiser that may come to ram him (something that happens a lot now that secondaries can't finish them off btw). Since they lack EFFECTIVE secondary damage these BBs are no longer pushing...and the skill points once used for secondaries become unused... what's left that they can take to give them some fighting ability? Deadeye of course... and its requirement to be outside of base detection range pushes these ex-brawling BB's further back. 

So now we have the sniper BBs that receive a nominal improvement in accuracy from deadeye (approx. the equivalent of target being just 2km closer) and ex-brawlers that now stay skirting their detect range so their not-so-good-at-sniping main guns get the better performance from their accuracy tables (more accurate at closer ranges) plus the little deadeye boost. 

Case in point: A BB with secondary spec which had strong secondary guns like Shikishima before the new skill rework would sink a half-health when spotted destroyer before it could move 2km's away or towards the BB. Now this same half health destroyer can effortlessly travel 7km's to point blank range of this BB, the entire time under focused secondary fire from this BB... and fire its torps at point blank range. This is how utterly ridiculous the accuracy loss is and why secondaries are now worthless to take considering the huge amount of skill points and ship equipment slots required to use them. 

Since you are going to 'change' deadeye, why not take this chance to also fix the secondaries and make it so that both brawlers and long range BBs ?

 

----- Change DeadEye to:

-10% dispersion to main guns if no detected hostile ship inside your own detection range, -20% dispersion to secondary guns. Fire Chance on main and secondary guns is reduced by 95%. 

 

-----Change Secondary skills 'Improved Secondary Battery Aiming' and 'Long Range Secondary Battery Shells' to:

Secondary Battery Upgrade (3pnt skill): -15% dispersion to secondary guns, +2km secondary gun range, +5% secondary gun HE penetration increase.

Secondary Battery Mastery (4pnt skill): +4km range increase to secondary guns, -35% dispersion to secondary guns

 

-----Change 'Close Quarters Combat' to include: +10% secondary gun HE penetration and 'secondary guns will track your manually selected secondary target even if outside of range' .. so as to increase the reaction time of secondaries. 

 

What these changes would achieve: 

- A return to the capt-skill 70% dispersion reduction of secondary guns IF the player takes deadeye+Secondary Battery Upgrade and Mastery. This is a SIGNIFICANT skill point investment. Furthermore the ship would need to equip three secondary boosting modules to truly max secondary gun performance. 

- Spreading the dispersion reduction and the range increase allows much higher combination of templates for various ships.

- The addition of increase HE penetration of secondaries, also spread out through the skills, helps some ships like the italian line, get their secondary gun capability up to some degree (their 90mm secondaries wont even pen DD armor even after you put IFHE ... so why are they there?). Also, it allows more consistent damage for secondaries to compensate for the loss of fire-starting chance. 

- The loss of fire starting chance applied to both main and secondary gun HE is to balance out the performance discrepancy between long range and brawling BBs. If you want to chuck out long range HE to set fires then you won't benefit from taking deadeye to improve your chances of landing more shells on distant superstructures. Likewise, if you brawler BB the no-fires secondaries makes it that much more important to focus on ships rather than just rush in and setting fires to all ships around you. 

Loss of fire chance also balances out their increased range since as the survivability of cruisers would be greatly reduced if you have a couple of BB's raining secondary shells on them at what is avg cruiser baseline main gun range. 

- With the return of EFFECTIVE damage to secondaries and a return of performance benefiting the skill point and ship module expenditure, the brawling BBs can come back to push the front. Long range BBs would benefit from deadeye only if they use AP. All other lines can also use a mixture of secondary gun skills/modules to create a mid-range main gun + secondary gun hybrid setup that lacks the accuracy the long range main guns have or the brawler secondaries ships have...but it would functions quite well to support the pushing brawler BBs. 

- Finally, the secondary guns across all tiers get a good range boost, equivalent to cruiser main guns, should the player take the full secondary kit. This will make brawling more productive and encourages teamplay. 

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

WG,

The reason BBs are in the back is not because deadeye turned them into snipers but rather because of the two main categories of BB's, long range (accuracy tables improve at longer range) and brawlers (accuracy table improve the closer the range is plus their speed or armor benefits them at close range engagements). Problem is, the brawlers have lost the secondary gun ability to actually brawl. 

It does not matter that secondary gun range is increased nor that on paper secondaries that shoot out of both sides while one side has the 30% dispersion reduction ends up adding up to more damage... because that damage is INEFFECTIVE damage. A brawling BB pushing the front needs to be able to prioritize a target to bring down so its secondaries can kick in while main guns reload. A brawling BB needs to be able to react to a destroyer that becomes visible as it comes in to a torpedo run or comes out of a corner or to finish off a wounded cruiser that may come to ram him (something that happens a lot now that secondaries can't finish them off btw). Since they lack EFFECTIVE secondary damage these BBs are no longer pushing...and the skill points once used for secondaries become unused... what's left that they can take to give them some fighting ability? Deadeye of course... and its requirement to be outside of base detection range pushes these ex-brawling BB's further back. 

So now we have the sniper BBs that receive a nominal improvement in accuracy from deadeye (approx. the equivalent of target being just 2km closer) and ex-brawlers that now stay skirting their detect range so their not-so-good-at-sniping main guns get the better performance from their accuracy tables (more accurate at closer ranges) plus the little deadeye boost. 

Case in point: A BB with secondary spec which had strong secondary guns like Shikishima before the new skill rework would sink a half-health when spotted destroyer before it could move 2km's away or towards the BB. Now this same half health destroyer can effortlessly travel 7km's to point blank range of this BB, the entire time under focused secondary fire from this BB... and fire its torps at point blank range. This is how utterly ridiculous the accuracy loss is and why secondaries are now worthless to take considering the huge amount of skill points and ship equipment slots required to use them. 

Since you are going to 'change' deadeye, why not take this chance to also fix the secondaries and make it so that both brawlers and long range BBs ?

 

----- Change DeadEye to:

-10% dispersion to main guns if no detected hostile ship inside your own detection range, -20% dispersion to secondary guns. Fire Chance on main and secondary guns is reduced by 95%. 

 

-----Change Secondary skills 'Improved Secondary Battery Aiming' and 'Long Range Secondary Battery Shells' to:

Secondary Battery Upgrade (3pnt skill): -15% dispersion to secondary guns, +2km secondary gun range, +5% secondary gun HE penetration increase.

Secondary Battery Mastery (4pnt skill): +4km range increase to secondary guns, -35% dispersion to secondary guns

 

-----Change 'Close Quarters Combat' to include: +10% secondary gun HE penetration and 'secondary guns will track your manually selected secondary target even if outside of range' .. so as to increase the reaction time of secondaries. 

 

What these changes would achieve: 

- A return to the capt-skill 70% dispersion reduction of secondary guns IF the player takes deadeye+Secondary Battery Upgrade and Mastery. This is a SIGNIFICANT skill point investment. Furthermore the ship would need to equip three secondary boosting modules to truly max secondary gun performance. 

- Spreading the dispersion reduction and the range increase allows much higher combination of templates for various ships.

- The addition of increase HE penetration of secondaries, also spread out through the skills, helps some ships like the italian line, get their secondary gun capability up to some degree (their 90mm secondaries wont even pen DD armor even after you put IFHE ... so why are they there?). Also, it allows more consistent damage for secondaries to compensate for the loss of fire-starting chance. 

- The loss of fire starting chance applied to both main and secondary gun HE is to balance out the performance discrepancy between long range and brawling BBs. If you want to chuck out long range HE to set fires then you won't benefit from taking deadeye to improve your chances of landing more shells on distant superstructures. Likewise, if you brawler BB the no-fires secondaries makes it that much more important to focus on ships rather than just rush in and setting fires to all ships around you. 

Loss of fire chance also balances out their increased range since as the survivability of cruisers would be greatly reduced if you have a couple of BB's raining secondary shells on them at what is avg cruiser baseline main gun range. 

- With the return of EFFECTIVE damage to secondaries and a return of performance benefiting the skill point and ship module expenditure, the brawling BBs can come back to push the front. Long range BBs would benefit from deadeye only if they use AP. All other lines can also use a mixture of secondary gun skills/modules to create a mid-range main gun + secondary gun hybrid setup that lacks the accuracy the long range main guns have or the brawler secondaries ships have...but it would functions quite well to support the pushing brawler BBs. 

- Finally, the secondary guns across all tiers get a good range boost, equivalent to cruiser main guns, should the player take the full secondary kit. This will make brawling more productive and encourages teamplay. 

ALL THE YES.

clapping | Trending Gifs | Page 18

Now then, these parts are of particular note...

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

It does not matter that secondary gun range is increased nor that on paper secondaries that shoot out of both sides while one side has the 30% dispersion reduction ends up adding up to more damage... because that damage is INEFFECTIVE damage. A brawling BB pushing the front needs to be able to prioritize a target to bring down so its secondaries can kick in while main guns reload. A brawling BB needs to be able to react to a destroyer that becomes visible as it comes in to a torpedo run or comes out of a corner or to finish off a wounded cruiser that may come to ram him (something that happens a lot now that secondaries can't finish them off btw). Since they lack EFFECTIVE secondary damage these BBs are no longer pushing

This is exactly what I've been talking about since Update 0.10.0 went live. Secondaries, due to the accuracy loss, CANNOT reliably deal effective supplementary damage. Goes doubly so for battleships without improved secondaries dispersion.

I PARTICULARLY LOVE THIS THOUGH:

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

-----Change Secondary skills 'Improved Secondary Battery Aiming' and 'Long Range Secondary Battery Shells' to:

Secondary Battery Upgrade (3pnt skill): -15% dispersion to secondary guns, +2km secondary gun range, +5% secondary gun HE penetration increase.

Secondary Battery Mastery (4pnt skill): +4km range increase to secondary guns, -35% dispersion to secondary guns

This is absolutely gorgeous. And it's something I was considering. I was saying to add a dispersion buff to Long Range Secondary Battery Shells!! Not too sure about the 5% HE pen increase, since that's probably not high enough to do much.

On a side note...

1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

-10% dispersion to main guns if no detected hostile ship inside your own detection range, -20% dispersion to secondary guns. Fire Chance on main and secondary guns is reduced by 95%. 

This is certainly a unique change. The Fire chance nerf is rather hefty, but interesting....

All in all, this is an amazing post, thank you Skyfaller!!

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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I'm all for fixing the secondary's! I didn't come into this game to sit on the border & snipe at  maximum range. Thanks for the suggestions! Sadly, I suspect that you have the chance of the mythical snowball in Hell!   ; (

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2 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

Problem is, the brawlers have lost the secondary gun ability to actually brawl. 

Not so much. From an overview point, the average Joe get an easier time to push with it's secondaries than before. The only point where one captain can be affected is when they have captain with more than 14 pts.

 

2 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

-----Change Secondary skills 'Improved Secondary Battery Aiming' and 'Long Range Secondary Battery Shells' to:

Secondary Battery Upgrade (3pnt skill): -15% dispersion to secondary guns, +2km secondary gun range, +5% secondary gun HE penetration increase.

Secondary Battery Mastery (4pnt skill): +4km range increase to secondary guns, -35% dispersion to secondary guns

using static buff to range will make some really weird balance point. Not that I dislike the idea of a Mikasa with 9km of secondary range, but I doubt that it is workable. Also, with a low cost IFHE there is no need to baked it in with those skill.

 

Instead of such massive rework, just give a flat 10%- 15% accuracy boost baked in. Or use the upgrade: split Auxiliary Armament in 2 to get some:

Secondary armement mod 1: -20% secondary reload time, +15% secondary accuracy, +50% secondary mount health

Anti-Air mod 1: +20% to continous damage of AA, +15% to the damage withing explosion (...), + 2 explosion of AA salbo at all time, 1 more during Defensive fire activation.

Edited by Karstodes

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37 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

Secondary armement mod 1: -20% secondary reload time, +15% secondary accuracy, +50% secondary mount health

You have my attention. This is actually an interesting idea...although the secondary reload time buff would probably be around -10%

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11 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

You have my attention. This is actually an interesting idea...although the secondary reload time buff would probably be around -10%

Probably yes, but it is now at -20% so it is basically balancing the loss of the AA part mainly. 

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The fact that BBs are moving further back also makes it hard to get in range for your secondaries to start working. WG messed up by making deadeye activate when there are no enemies within detect radius. If it was the other way around, forcing players to take risks by moving closer, then you could actually use your secondaries. 

WG, in all their wisdom, killed secondaries not just by nerfing them (although they swear it was a buff, that is how much they know their own game), but by also making the game much more campier with longer range engagements. Now, if you really want to see secondaries completely dead and buried six feet under, wait until subs are added, as they are another reason for this rebork. 

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2 hours ago, Karstodes said:

Also, with a low cost IFHE there is no need to baked it in with those skill.

Most BBs would prefer an IFHE that ONLY affected secondaries although the 50% fire nerf may dissuade them of even that.

 

If we are talking about fixing skills. WG should put AA improvements back in most secondary skills.  (for BBs and cruisers)

Edited by Sabot_100

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4 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Most BBs would prefer an IFHE that ONLY affected secondaries although the 50% fire nerf may dissuade them of even that.

Not so much: outside of the French the other line do not use He unless they face a bow in BB, and even then if you get close enough sticking to AP will just be as rewarding. 

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10 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

Not so much: outside of the French the other line do not use He unless they face a bow in BB, and even then if you get close enough sticking to AP will just be as rewarding. 

Wrong.
IFHE is a detriment regardless of your ship. Even if it applied only to secondaries, it would still be a very questionable choice for pretty much all of the BBs out there. The fact that it also nerfs main guns makes it go from questionable to stay the hell away from it.

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26 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

Not so much: outside of the French the other line do not use He unless they face a bow in BB

Have you played the British BBs. Thunderer hardly needs to carry AP shells.

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9 minutes ago, WarStore said:

Wrong.
IFHE is a detriment regardless of your ship. Even if it applied only to secondaries, it would still be a very questionable choice for pretty much all of the BBs out there. The fact that it also nerfs main guns makes it go from questionable to stay the hell away from it.

Depends of the thresholds that it makes you cross. German Bb with 105mm guns? Can be quite useful since it makes them cross the 32mm threshold. Shikishima’s 100mm? Same thing. French and US? It doesn’t cross any useful threshold. 

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1 minute ago, Sabot_100 said:

Have you played the British BBs. Thunderer hardly needs to carry AP shells.

I have.

and who in is right mind would spec a secondary Thunderer? 

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6 hours ago, Skyfaller said:

WG,

The reason BBs are in the back is not because deadeye turned them into snipers but rather because of the two main categories of BB's, long range (accuracy tables improve at longer range) and brawlers (accuracy table improve the closer the range is plus their speed or armor benefits them at close range engagements). Problem is, the brawlers have lost the secondary gun ability to actually brawl. 

It does not matter that secondary gun range is increased nor that on paper secondaries that shoot out of both sides while one side has the 30% dispersion reduction ends up adding up to more damage... because that damage is INEFFECTIVE damage. A brawling BB pushing the front needs to be able to prioritize a target to bring down so its secondaries can kick in while main guns reload. A brawling BB needs to be able to react to a destroyer that becomes visible as it comes in to a torpedo run or comes out of a corner or to finish off a wounded cruiser that may come to ram him (something that happens a lot now that secondaries can't finish them off btw). Since they lack EFFECTIVE secondary damage these BBs are no longer pushing...and the skill points once used for secondaries become unused... what's left that they can take to give them some fighting ability? Deadeye of course... and its requirement to be outside of base detection range pushes these ex-brawling BB's further back. 

So now we have the sniper BBs that receive a nominal improvement in accuracy from deadeye (approx. the equivalent of target being just 2km closer) and ex-brawlers that now stay skirting their detect range so their not-so-good-at-sniping main guns get the better performance from their accuracy tables (more accurate at closer ranges) plus the little deadeye boost. 

Case in point: A BB with secondary spec which had strong secondary guns like Shikishima before the new skill rework would sink a half-health when spotted destroyer before it could move 2km's away or towards the BB. Now this same half health destroyer can effortlessly travel 7km's to point blank range of this BB, the entire time under focused secondary fire from this BB... and fire its torps at point blank range. This is how utterly ridiculous the accuracy loss is and why secondaries are now worthless to take considering the huge amount of skill points and ship equipment slots required to use them. 

Since you are going to 'change' deadeye, why not take this chance to also fix the secondaries and make it so that both brawlers and long range BBs ?

 

----- Change DeadEye to:

-10% dispersion to main guns if no detected hostile ship inside your own detection range, -20% dispersion to secondary guns. Fire Chance on main and secondary guns is reduced by 95%. 

 

-----Change Secondary skills 'Improved Secondary Battery Aiming' and 'Long Range Secondary Battery Shells' to:

Secondary Battery Upgrade (3pnt skill): -15% dispersion to secondary guns, +2km secondary gun range, +5% secondary gun HE penetration increase.

Secondary Battery Mastery (4pnt skill): +4km range increase to secondary guns, -35% dispersion to secondary guns

 

-----Change 'Close Quarters Combat' to include: +10% secondary gun HE penetration and 'secondary guns will track your manually selected secondary target even if outside of range' .. so as to increase the reaction time of secondaries. 

 

What these changes would achieve: 

- A return to the capt-skill 70% dispersion reduction of secondary guns IF the player takes deadeye+Secondary Battery Upgrade and Mastery. This is a SIGNIFICANT skill point investment. Furthermore the ship would need to equip three secondary boosting modules to truly max secondary gun performance. 

- Spreading the dispersion reduction and the range increase allows much higher combination of templates for various ships.

- The addition of increase HE penetration of secondaries, also spread out through the skills, helps some ships like the italian line, get their secondary gun capability up to some degree (their 90mm secondaries wont even pen DD armor even after you put IFHE ... so why are they there?). Also, it allows more consistent damage for secondaries to compensate for the loss of fire-starting chance. 

- The loss of fire starting chance applied to both main and secondary gun HE is to balance out the performance discrepancy between long range and brawling BBs. If you want to chuck out long range HE to set fires then you won't benefit from taking deadeye to improve your chances of landing more shells on distant superstructures. Likewise, if you brawler BB the no-fires secondaries makes it that much more important to focus on ships rather than just rush in and setting fires to all ships around you. 

Loss of fire chance also balances out their increased range since as the survivability of cruisers would be greatly reduced if you have a couple of BB's raining secondary shells on them at what is avg cruiser baseline main gun range. 

- With the return of EFFECTIVE damage to secondaries and a return of performance benefiting the skill point and ship module expenditure, the brawling BBs can come back to push the front. Long range BBs would benefit from deadeye only if they use AP. All other lines can also use a mixture of secondary gun skills/modules to create a mid-range main gun + secondary gun hybrid setup that lacks the accuracy the long range main guns have or the brawler secondaries ships have...but it would functions quite well to support the pushing brawler BBs. 

- Finally, the secondary guns across all tiers get a good range boost, equivalent to cruiser main guns, should the player take the full secondary kit. This will make brawling more productive and encourages teamplay. 

Deadeye (suggestive changes) AND Secondaries??? No...

Not to mention, it doesn't fit into WG's plan to make all ordnance player controlled.


This was not my idea nor will i take credit for it however, a proposition was made to change Deadeye to

%15 main gun dispersion when in a cap or in the process of capping...

Now this^ I can scream my approval on... Yes please!Make it so...

"let it be written, let it be done."

 

Edited by Navalpride33
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35 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Have you played the British BBs. Thunderer hardly needs to carry AP shells.

If you're playing the Thunderer and you never use AP, you're playing the ship wrong and are bad. The Thunderer has excellent AP. I have managed to kill other Thunderers in my own Thunderer because they will expose their broadside and I'll swap to AP and score citadels while they continue spamming HE.

The whole reason so many potatoes sling HE in the Thunderer, however, is because it's much easier to use HE since you only have to get your lead right to do damage, whereas with AP you have to factor in the angle of the target and where you are trying to hit the ship.

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31 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

I have.

and who in is right mind would spec a secondary Thunderer? 

<-------Absolute Madlass

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12 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

<-------Absolute Madlass

Well, if you make its 8 secondary guns per side be relevant, I tilt my hat.

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I honestly think they should just put some teeth back into the secondaries, (maybe not quite what they were before) and see where that leads.

 

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1 hour ago, Karstodes said:

I have.

and who in is right mind would spec a secondary Thunderer? 

 

28 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

<-------Absolute Madlass

 

15 minutes ago, Karstodes said:

Well, if you make its 8 secondary guns per side be relevant, I tilt my hat.

When I get three more skill points, I can add the other secondary battery Captain's skill that increases the range.

image_2021-03-03_204217.thumb.png.4fa4f222e1b93bc44b110f74fd38cc20.png

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Want to fix Deadeye

Easy:

-10% to dispersion (as it is now but), -50% to action time of repair party, -50% time to heal, -1 charge of heal.

 

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2 minutes ago, Gemlin said:

Want to fix Deadeye

Easy:

-10% to dispersion (as it is now but), -50% to action time of repair party, -50% time to heal, -1 charge of heal.

 

You want to make them hug the border even more?

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8 minutes ago, Gemlin said:

Want to fix Deadeye

Easy:

-10% to dispersion (as it is now but), -50% to action time of repair party, -50% time to heal, -1 charge of heal.

 

These types of fixes will literally just make them do anything but move closer. They're completely counterproductive to the goal of making them interact with the battleflow more.

Right now I actually move up with my Deadeye BBs, but with that as a balancing factor I wouldn't bother.

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2 hours ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

<-------Absolute Madlass

I salute you as a fellow insane, brawl obsessed captain (I'm a darn space pirate after all). 

 

Back to the main point of the thread, I'm up for anything that gets my heavily invested secondaries on all my non-German T7 and up ships back to something resembling their previous effectiveness. As to the OP's ideas on skills, I have an alternative idea for the HE pen increases, an idea that I've had for a very long time. My idea is adding/modifying a captain skill to allow you to dynamically switch between AP and HE on secondary guns of 139mm or greater (possibly 130mm, to account for Russian guns with excellent AP) in battle, allowing for more player input while also potentially increasing damage output if used correctly. Back in the day when secondaries 139mm and greater only fired AP, I actually had rather good luck with getting some real juicy hits, especially on cruisers. I'd love to be able to actively choose my ammo type to adapt to changing situations and I personally find it mind-boggling that this hasn't been added as a feature despite all these years. 

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2 hours ago, Karstodes said:

Well, if you make its 8 secondary guns per side be relevant, I tilt my hat.

...I USED to, actually, on ships like California or Alabama...before the secondaries accuracy nerf...I could actually use them as a kind of anti-DD screen...It wasn't GREAT, but, it worked decently enough...(It's still not recommended because you give up ALL the survivability skills, buuut it was fun! ~-~°(^v^;)°~-~)

Sailor moon GIF on GIFER - by Malalbine

Buuut on the flipside I'm still crazy enough to make a SUUUPER-close-range(like, 7.5km lols) "pen ALL the things" Mutsu secondaries build. So there's that little project....(DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. It is BEYOND risk lols)

But right now, I'm having trouble making ships with like 6 double turret secondaries per side relevant....battleships without improved dispersion just have a TOUGH time hitting things with that accuracy loss!

 

 

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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3 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Not to mention, it doesn't fit into WG's plan to make all ordnance player controlled.

AGAIN, this has yet to be verified by ANYBODY. There is absolutely nothing indicating that this is WG's plan, Naval...I don't know why you believe this at all, tbh. This isn't WoWs Blitz.

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