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Kuramitsu

German new DD line adjusted

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ST 0.10.2, CHANGES TO TEST SHIPS

We adjusted the parameters of some ships based on testing results. The changes will be applied to German destroyers, Hyuga, Agincourt, and Vampire II.

 

VII Z-31:

  • Removed the Hydroacoustic Search consumable;
  • Added the Smoke Generator consumable;
  • The angle at which the check for ricochets is made for AP shells increased from 45 to 60 degrees;
  • Guaranteed ricochet angle for AP shells increased from 60 to 67.5 degrees.

VIII GUSTAV JULIUS MAERKER:

  • Removed Defensive AA Fire and Hydroacoustic Search consumables
  • Added the Smoke Generator consumable;
  • Deck armor thickness increased from 19 to 25 mm;
  • The angle at which the check for ricochets is made for AP shells increased from 45 to 60 degrees;
  • Guaranteed ricochet angle for AP shells increased from 60 to 67.5 degrees.

IX FELIX SCHULTZ:

  • Torpedo tubes reload time reduced from 120 to 90 s;
  • Removed the Hydroacoustic Search consumable;
  • Added the Smoke Generator consumable;
  • Deck armor thickness increased from 19 to 25 mm.

X ELBING:

  • Removed the Hydroacoustic Search consumable;
  • Added the Smoke Generator consumable;

Hydroacoustic Search is most useful for destroyers when fighting other destroyers for caps. However, this is not a primary goal for the new German destroyers. Instead of Hydroacoustic search, we added a Smoke Generator, which will increase their survivability and allow them to effectively use one of their main features: their powerful main battery guns. 

IX ZF-6:

  • Main battery reload time reduced from 5 to 4 s.
  • Torpedo tubes reload time reduced from  120 to 90 s.

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I am still trying to figure out what role these new German destroyers are supposed to be. 

Shimakaze-Torpedo Boat
Harugumo-Smoke Gunner
Gearing-Stealthy Super Smoker
Khabarovsk-Durable Speed Gunner
Grozovoi-Jack of All Trades
Z-52-Torpedo Screener
Elbing-?????????
Daring-Cap Master
Kleber-DPM Speed Gunner
Yueyang-Radar Spotter
Halland-Flyswatter

Any thoughts? With these changes, it feels like they are now a variant on Harugumo, but more alpha and less rate of fire. I am not convinced a player wouldn't be better off just playing Harugumo.

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Apparently I think they wanted them to hunt light cruisers. 

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It looks as though the doubting Thomases who questioned the viability of this line without smokescreens were right. This is a complete turnabout on the nature of these ships.

 

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7 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It looks as though the doubting Thomases who questioned the viability of this line without smokescreens were right. This is a complete turnabout on the nature of these ships.

 

As one of those Thomases I also have to consider the impact the smoke choice will have. Standard German smoke will be workable, albeit limited; RN style smoke like  on Z-35 could make these ships quite dangerous under the correct circumstances.

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2 hours ago, Kuramitsu said:

 

Hapa posted this topic earlier. Feel free to leave feedback there. 

 

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1 minute ago, warheart1992 said:

As one of those Thomases I also have to consider the impact the smoke choice will have.

Oh for sure.

I'd say this has potentially put back the introduction of this line by at least an entire patch, and it might be one of the reasons why the Italian BB release cycle is three patches long instead of two (pre-release 1, pre-release 2, final release).

Then again, IIRC they made two major changes to the British destroyers just before pre-release and that turned them from potential garbage into a very viable and popular line. (They altered the torp spread options from wide/single to narrow/single and they gave them British cruiser acceleration parameters to compensate for the lack of speed boost, a lack which just about everyone who thought they knew better was saying would kill the line's viability.)

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1 hour ago, Kuramitsu said:

Apparently I think they wanted them to hunt light cruisers. 

Impossible! The moment elbing shoots to a Minotaur or a Smolensk is GG instantly.

They are just doing typical WG stuff, making bad german stuff because WG.

Meanwhile fantasy ships like Slava are top tier, cause WG.

  • Boring 1

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Should probably leave the hydro on these. They're large and have massive turning circles, the smoke will be  a torp trap. 

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26 minutes ago, BasedCoomer said:

the smoke will be  a torp trap. 

If they haven't learned that by Tier 7, will they learn it at all?

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These new DDs seemed awful before, and they still do. Great, you can now shoot out of smoke, enjoy every single torpedo that comes your way in that giant ship without hydro — and btw many of the lights cruisers that you’re supposed to “hunt” have radar. 

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1 hour ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

If they haven't learned that by Tier 7, will they learn it at all?

I just can't see what they're trying to accomplish with this line, if they want the smoke to be usable they should keep the hydro.

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12 minutes ago, BasedCoomer said:

I just can't see what they're trying to accomplish with this line, if they want the smoke to be usable they should keep the hydro.

 

My thoughts exactly.

And all of them need faster reload. I'm thinking 6 seconds for tier VII - VIII and 5.0 - 5.5 for tiers IX and X.

I mean, whats the point. Bad concealment, cruiser dimensions and agility and reload ? Might as well sail a CL and get all the good consumables. :cap_hmm:

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8 minutes ago, BasedCoomer said:

I just can't see what they're trying to accomplish with this line, if they want the smoke to be usable they should keep the hydro.

It's not entirely clear to me either, but it's also not the first time WG have taken a gamble. 

British DDs - "What do you mean, they don't have speed boost? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

French DDs - "What do you mean, they don't have smokescreens? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

Russian BBs - "What do you mean, limited damage control consumables? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

Italian cruisers - "What do you mean, they can't start fires with their main guns? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

German alternative-line DDs...

...and here we come to the point where WG might have overplayed their hand, because they've got it right so often in the face of opinion to the contrary that they thought this concept would work too. It patently hasn't, or they wouldn't be making such a major change when the ships were already in live-server testing. Clearly this has shown up things which play in the Supertest server did not, and I don't think any of us will ever know the reason for that unless we become Supertesters ourselves and gain access to all the NDA information and WIP discussions that go on behind the scenes. 

One can infer from the decision to restore smokescreens that the devs reacted appropriately to feedback/evidence that the survivability was too poor to be workable. However, since I'm not privy to NDA info and couldn't use it to publicly confirm my impression if I was, it remains strictly an inference.

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3 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Oh for sure.

I'd say this has potentially put back the introduction of this line by at least an entire patch, and it might be one of the reasons why the Italian BB release cycle is three patches long instead of two (pre-release 1, pre-release 2, final release).

WG also might just be trying to stretch out their content given the current state of the world. If a lot of their developers have been working remotely for the last year, I can see that causing some delays.

3 hours ago, warheart1992 said:

As one of those Thomases I also have to consider the impact the smoke choice will have. Standard German smoke will be workable, albeit limited; RN style smoke like  on Z-35 could make these ships quite dangerous under the correct circumstances.

IMO, the lack of hydro suggests that these ships will be getting RN-style smoke or a “standard”-type smokescreen. IIRC, the long range hydro + long smoke duration was considered too powerful by WG on the original DD line, at least when they were first released, which is why they have their worst-in-game smoke.

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Just now, Nevermore135 said:

WG also might just be trying to stretch out their content given the current state of the world. If a lot of their developers have been working remotely for the last year, I can see that causing some delays.

Against this, last year's schedule was packed. Granted, a lot of the groundwork for 2020 might have been completed in 2019 before the shi*show hit, and the delays are only starting to come through now, but software development in this day and age SHOULD be one of the least-affected occupations. Among other things, you no longer require hard media to send your co-workers a copy of the code you're trying to debug, headsets that allow you to talk while keeping both hands on the keyboard at full pace (rather than requiring you to hunt and peck) are now commonplace, and remote screen-sharing enables the other person to see what you're doing and comment/assist in real time.

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33 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

WG also might just be trying to stretch out their content given the current state of the world. If a lot of their developers have been working remotely for the last year, I can see that causing some delays.

IMO, the lack of hydro suggests that these ships will be getting RN-style smoke or a “standard”-type smokescreen. IIRC, the long range hydro + long smoke duration was considered too powerful by WG on the original DD line, at least when they were first released, which is why they have their worst-in-game smoke.

If it's the RN style smoke then there might be a chance. The AP penetration  of the rifles these ships carry at tiers IX-X is comparable to Hindenburg; within 10km they should be pretty strong in that regard. 

Still, there are the issues of bad maneuverability and huge size to consider. Elbing and Schulz are pretty much Smolensk sized...

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5 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I am still trying to figure out what role these new German destroyers are supposed to be. 

Shimakaze-Torpedo Boat
Harugumo-Smoke Gunner
Gearing-Stealthy Super Smoker
Khabarovsk-Durable Speed Gunner
Grozovoi-Jack of All Trades
Z-52-Torpedo Screener
Elbing-?????????
Daring-Cap Master
Kleber-DPM Speed Gunner
Yueyang-Radar Spotter
Halland-Flyswatter

Any thoughts? With these changes, it feels like they are now a variant on Harugumo, but more alpha and less rate of fire. I am not convinced a player wouldn't be better off just playing Harugumo.

Look to history. They are stand ins for actual German CLs

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49 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

It's not entirely clear to me either, but it's also not the first time WG have taken a gamble. 

British DDs - "What do you mean, they don't have speed boost? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

French DDs - "What do you mean, they don't have smokescreens? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

Russian BBs - "What do you mean, limited damage control consumables? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

Italian cruisers - "What do you mean, they can't start fires with their main guns? Unheard of! This will never work out!"

German alternative-line DDs...

...and here we come to the point where WG might have overplayed their hand, because they've got it right so often in the face of opinion to the contrary that they thought this concept would work too. It patently hasn't, or they wouldn't be making such a major change when the ships were already in live-server testing. Clearly this has shown up things which play in the Supertest server did not, and I don't think any of us will ever know the reason for that unless we become Supertesters ourselves and gain access to all the NDA information and WIP discussions that go on behind the scenes. 

One can infer from the decision to restore smokescreens that the devs reacted appropriately to feedback/evidence that the survivability was too poor to be workable. However, since I'm not privy to NDA info and couldn't use it to publicly confirm my impression if I was, it remains strictly an inference.

In every single line you mention this was just average opinion of the potato + last minute changes.

RN DDs- Daring and Jutland literally got last minute Repair Parties and Minotaur style AP.

French DDs- Whoever said this about smokescreens has obviously never touched VMF open water gunboats; the big issue was the lack of Repair Party which was adressed by the unique MN DD saturation rule.

Russian BBs- Dunno, I don't think anyone saw this as a bad thing.

Italian cruisers- Again, lots of last minute changes on ricochet angles to tweak them accordingly. Besides it's only from Amalfi onwards that you get to the good stuff.

What I will admit though has proven me completely wrong, is the fun and success of Yolo Emilio. Was expecting them to just be suicide botes but they seem to be making a good account of themselves.

When it comes to the upcoming alternate line my belief is that someone saw the impact that an AP ambush by a Mogador or Kleber could have on a CL. Popping Reload Booster and getting a broadside MInotaur/Smolensk/any CL really is one of the dirtiest, most satisfying things you can do in the game. There's merit in an AP centric DD line; Daring, some VMF and most MN DDs pull it off successfully. Thing is the preliminary stats screamed of "French DD, only worse". Mediocre speed, bad maneuverability, bad DPM without Reload Booster, just a 25mm plate to help with DD fights, really weird DFAA gimmick on an average AA suite.

The smoke is a good step, but there's still room for improvement for sure. Giving them the best possible turret angles  or even 360 degree rotation would be another considering they get 22.5secs without taking into account the Reload Upgrade that further increases this.

 

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6 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Thing is the preliminary stats screamed of "French DD, only worse". Mediocre speed, bad maneuverability, bad DPM without Reload Booster, just a 25mm plate to help with DD fights, really weird DFAA gimmick on an average AA suite.

I like your train of thought up to this point. Given that the French DDs have not been immune from post-release adjustments, someone probably thought it was a good idea to start the new KM line from the downtuned position, but they went a little too far. Thinking happened, and they considered that it was better to improve the survivability by restoring the smokescreens than by boosting performance to the point where they became nothing more than German baguettes.

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IMO, this line is taking form as an AP variant of Harugumo line, big clumsy boats reliant on smoke spam. Harugumo line is centered on high DPM HE spam, the new germans  would be centered in high alpha AP with insane accuracy. Depending on how are the gun arcs, with that improved ricochet angle, long range plunging fire on decks might be a possibility. 

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2 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

the new germans  would be centered in high alpha AP with insane accuracy

It's sort of a shame this line only starts at Tier 7 - it would be very interesting to try that insane accuracy out in Operation Aegis against the low-tier light cruisers we get there.

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