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Hapa_Fodder

ST 0.10.2, changes to test ships

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Nice to see some changes to German DDs. Question is, what Smoke will they be using? Normally I guess it would be standard German low duration, long cooldown one. In my opinion a Z-35/RN style smoke would help these ships better.

Kinda weird to see Vampire II buffs, thought it was already in a decent spot.

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LOL Agincourt as a Tier 5 British Massachusetts. Interesting.

Also, more Vampire 2 buffs. Someone took the garlic bread off the buffet, I see. WHEN, WARGAMING, WHEN? AND FOR HOW MUCH OF WHAT RESOURCE? I really do think she ought to be called Vampire '59.

German line-split DDs are a complete turnaround from their original concept. As I said elsewhere, it appears that the doubts about their survivability without smokescreens were borne out in testing. 

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Ok, I can get behind the changes to the German DD split, they are going all into the niche of hitting above their weight. Though I’d need more data to be 100% sold to this line, I may have had a depressing Z23 run and am intimidated by 150s on DDs as a result.

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I am also wondering what kind of smoke they're getting.  Ideally, Japanese DD or British DD smoke would be nice.  Exhaust smoke would be an interesting choice too.  The gun soft stats will be critical to overall viability of course.  I think these boats should've kept hydro, just maybe not full-bore german hydro.

Also, I wonder at what point you could consider these OP.  I'm not saying they will be or that they're anywhere near that, but in theory, with enough buffs you could make these outclass the CLs they're supposed to hunt, and I wonder where that point it?

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This is a bruh moment for Oklahoma, Agincourt just stole her last reason to exist (secondary dispersion)

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German 150 DDs: We took player concerns and feedback into consideration, and as such we made it look like we did something, but in actuality we did nothing and made them worse. Also, am I the only one who finds it sad they promised improved bounce angles on all of them, but the T7 and 8 didn't have them? Then again, seeing how in many recent lines the T7 and 8s are garbage level throwaways and the T9 and 10 actually good, should I be surprised?

ZF-6: damn, a very good dockayrd ship? Please don't screw this like the other German DDs

Hyuga: Hard to say it needed nerfs, but at least Deadeye is almost useless on it now

Agincourt: a nerf that might backfire. I'm gonna guess her AP is now the garbage level pen that is Bellerophon and Dreadknought's 12in guns, but the HE still has 76mm of pen, which HEcitadels most T4 and 5 cruisers, so why bother using AP? Also good gunpower, armor and accurate secondaries, RIP Oklahoma.

Vampire II: What in all the holy hell did this ship do to deserve that level of firepower, hydro, crawling smoke, and a 5.8km concealment?


Just for some numbers, this gives Vampire 266k HE DPM base with no modifiers, with 5km cruiser hydro, crawling smoke, and DM bounce angles on AP.
Daring has 218k base, with a heal, 200m worse stealth, worse(scenario dependant) hydro, just as good smoke, and a heal.
Smaland has 247k base, with 600m worse stealth but a heal and 7.5km radar
Marceau has 253k, and goes 55knts
Haragumo has 240k base, but has stupid pen for guns her size

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Alright, here's my two cents.
 

German DDs: Alright, this is highly questionable for the most part. They did buff the Z-31 and the Maerker by giving them more usable AP shells, which is nice, as well as buffing the armor slightly so that they can bounce some things. Felix Schultz having a 120 second torpedo reload prior to the buff seems a tad bit questionable, but idk. That being said, the tradeoff for smoke is giving up hydro, which isn't exactly brilliant considering that the Hydro is one of the most powerful tools in a German DD's arsenal. I can see that there could be some real concerns, i.e the DDs smoke-hydro APing cruisers to death, but considering that most cruisers these days carry Radar or Hydro, not to mention the ever-present threat of CVs..this seems like a pretty odd choice.

ZF-6: Firepower buffs are always nice. That being said, it still ends up with slightly worse DPM than Yugumo and Z-46, which are two ships that aren't exactly known for HE DPM. Of course, it has the Main Battery Reload Booster, which should nicely compensate for it. That being said, the torpedo reload buff seems a tad bit unnecessary, considering that they seem to be a German Version of the French DD Torpedoes. Then again, the Mogador has a 77 second torpedo reload so what do I know.

Hyuga: This was justifiable, considering how powerful she looks on paper alone. Even if the 356mm guns cannot really overmatch most things, they are still ridiculously accurate and have a brutally quick reload of 26 seconds, which gives her superior DPM to King George V, though not the same extent of fire starting ability. Now, this is not how I would have gone about this, where a reload detune would be better, but hey, this can still work to bring her in line.

Agincourt: This basically turns her into a Tier V Thunderer that can brawl with good armor and heavy broadside firepower. I know she doesn't have any AA, but if there isn't a carrier present, she's going to brutalize everything, and I do mean everything ( Yes, you sealclubbing Clemson drivers, I'm looking SQUARELY at you ). Longer fuse AP means she can punch broadside BBs and some of the more heavily armored cruisers she will face, and the HE pen is enough to nuke some ( read, all Tier V ) cruisers, as well as light everything on fire and brutalize DDs. The secondaries do seem like a fun gimmick, but I don't think they will see that much use given her low speed and rather large size. The only thing I really see holding her back is the extremely clumsy turret layout ( albeit with some rather juicy firing angles ), and her rather long 36 second reload.

Vampire II: They took a fairly decent already Tier X Destroyer and they turned her into a monster. Vampire now has a superior reload to the pre-nerfed HMS Daring ( remember that one, with the 2.5 second reload that ate alive every single DD that wasn't named Kleber? ), along with a buff to her Crawling Smoke Generator, which reduced the cooldown timer from 2 minutes and 40 seconds to 2 minutes flat. On top of that, she has some fairly nasty torpedoes, an Engine Boost, a 5km hydro, and better concealment than the Daring. Eh, British Bias doesn't exist. Yeah right

- Shrayes

 

 

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I'm really curious, seems like some ships (German DDs & Vampire II) got HUGE changes. The Vampire is really curious, that's an big reload rate change (reduced it by around 1/3rd) and then gave them a faster reload on the smoke too... I guess it was underperforming significantly?

As to the Germans, it does make them (as mentioned by others,) seem like a lot more like the other already existing DDs now. Though as they stood before I saw no value in them, at least now they can contribute a bit better.

Some things that I don't think are often mentioned in these discussions when we compare ships that we don't actually get to play around with vs ones that are in the game:

  1. Ship size & armor setup - some ships are much bigger and easier to hit than others, and how the damage impacts (overpen vs pen)
  2. Shell speed and trajectory - flat vs high arc, shells that slow a lot over distance.
  3. AA - very often we don't bring up how much that matters. Though generally the difference matters less than if you position with friends, and if the CV player is high tiered and/or very skilled.

I was hoping we were getting closer to release on the Vampire II than I'm guessing we are. 

Edited by TheArc

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6 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

LOL Agincourt as a Tier 5 British Massachusetts. Interesting.

Also, more Vampire 2 buffs. Someone took the garlic bread off the buffet, I see. WHEN, WARGAMING, WHEN? AND FOR HOW MUCH OF WHAT RESOURCE? I really do think she ought to be called Vampire '59.

German line-split DDs are a complete turnaround from their original concept. As I said elsewhere, it appears that the doubts about their survivability without smokescreens were borne out in testing. 

Vampire II was actually the second HAMS Vampire.  D68 was a V and W class DD, D11 was an Australian built Tribal class DD.  So she needs to be named HMAS Vampire 2 (D11), as the HMAS Vampire (D68) is in the game T3.  Unfortunately the V2 is the only survivor of her 4 sisters, she is preserved at the National Maritime Museum in Sydney.

On the HMS Agincourt, with her layout, I wonder if she will play more like a USS Texas.

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10 hours ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

LOL Agincourt as a Tier 5 British Massachusetts. Interesting.

I'll be honest, I knida laughed a little at the thought of it, but it sure has peaked my interest! That said, Agincourt's a pretty interesting design anyways. 7 double turrets! Whew. Although the AP penetration loss worries me that WG will turn Agincourt into basically a British Oklahoma....Not that that in itself is necessarily a bad thing! It's just the AP penetration values I'm concerned about. Oklahoma has notoriously terribad AP shell penetration values...

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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Couldnt the Agincourt also be used as a Pan-American ship, since she was originally ordered by Brasil?  Or an Ottoman Empire ship, since she was then sold to the Ottoman Empire (along with the Erin), before being seized by the RN at the start of WW1....

Edited by sonoasailor

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11 minutes ago, sonoasailor said:

Couldnt the Agincourt also be used as a Pan-American ship, since she was originally ordered by Brasil?  Or an Ottoman Empire ship, since she was then sold to the Ottoman Empire (along with the Erin), before being seized by the RN at the start of WW1....

With WG, it could be all three.

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15 minutes ago, sonoasailor said:

Couldnt the Agincourt also be used as a Pan-American ship, since she was originally ordered by Brasil?  Or an Ottoman Empire ship, since she was then sold to the Ottoman Empire (along with the Erin), before being seized by the RN at the start of WW1....

Brazil defaulted on her before Turkey picked her up, so there's the Pan-Am claim dealt with. Besides which, the South American navies have plenty of dreadnoughts which actually served under their flags, and I think those would be more appropriate choices. Almirante Latorre would be quite suitable at Tier 5 as a ship that was explicitly built for and ended her days with a South American navy, and you could even double-bill her as HMS Canada (a la Boise/Nueve) if you really wanted to.

As for Turkey, I doubt that WG really needs or wants another Pan-Euro BB at tier 5, and since the ship never actually served under Turkish colours, it would be inappropriate.

Note that the British paid for the Latorre when they took her on and seized the others outright. They knew exactly which way the wind was going to blow, and they wanted to transfer neither a ship nor money to a nation they expected to be at war with.

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1 hour ago, Crij said:

Unfortunately the V2 is the only survivor of her 4 sisters, she is preserved at the National Maritime Museum in Sydney.

I've been there and seen her, and that's why I want her so badly. Also, Vampire 1 (for want of a better word) was the first premium ship I ever won in the game.

1 hour ago, Crij said:

On the HMS Agincourt, with her layout, I wonder if she will play more like a USS Texas.

With the number of turrets she has, she's closer to a Wyoming. Unlike the Texas, she was crawling with secondary guns.

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So looks like this is done by a new balance guy.

Finally, those new ships seem playable at release, at least I am willing to try them.

Never want to see the trash slow USN BB anymore. 

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