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OuijaApologist

The main or secondary hits mission in this phase of the Italian Battleships event shows how badly secondaries have been nerfed

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I started working on this mission of the Italian Battleships event:

2021-03-01.thumb.png.782d46c3037bd0be92470265f8d4a4b8.png

I start a co-op match with Jean Bart, 19 point commander secondary build and modules. I go to the middle of the map with 10k secondary range and stop, firing at BB's on both sides of the ship at 8k range away. 

 

Here's the result:

winnn.png.b3da7b5c222df0afc2660f52ad03329e.png

 

Whoopee, a whole 123 secondary hits for 14,726 dmg.

 

Okay, so I try my strongest secondary ship that I have: G Kurfurst with the legendary module. I do the same thing, co-op match, go middle of map and stop, firing from both sides of the ship. Enemies slightly further away this time, around 10k range.

 

survey says:

12121.png.3680862c2659062c3be400d13318f729.png

 

68 hits. I only need to get to 1800.

Now, somebody go get Zoup because like he said, brawling isn't dead...:Smile_facepalm:

 

 

 

Edited by OuijaApologist
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You weren't close enough.  If you really need to farm hits that badly, enter co-op, and scrape paint. Also, you can do main battery hits.  Fire up a CL or gunboat DD and blast away. They don't have to deal damage, just hit.

Edited by Valas1
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Sounds like a job for Friesland.

Or the little ensk for those that have it.

As for secondary rework, specialist US BBs I would rate as barely adequate, buy my Odin just makes me sad.

Edited by DrHolmes52

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wish they didn't nurf the secondarys that bad, but the increased range is good.  Agree with above, using smolly.  A good co-op game about 400 to 500 hits.  sweet.

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The Dr. prescribed Bismarck in Coop for your ailment. If you are lucky and end up with a BB just for you to farm on your side, you can easily farm 400+ secondary hits on just one BB. Just remain at pistol range and bait the bot to shoot at your belt, easy peasy.

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I'm sure the OP knows that the fastest way to do this is to take the fastest-firing DDs and cruisers he has into co-op and rack up main battery hits (which also count).

However, as is typical of him, he's going to do it the hard way and use it to get on his soapbox about BB secondary-battery nerfs. It's a dishonest, underhanded way of going about things.

Edited by Ensign_Cthulhu
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1 hour ago, OuijaApologist said:

I started working on this mission of the Italian Battleships event:

2021-03-01.thumb.png.782d46c3037bd0be92470265f8d4a4b8.png

I start a co-op match with Jean Bart, 19 point commander secondary build and modules. I go to the middle of the map with 10k secondary range and stop, firing at BB's on both sides of the ship at 8k range away. 

 

Here's the result:

winnn.png.b3da7b5c222df0afc2660f52ad03329e.png

 

Whoopee, a whole 123 secondary hits for 14,726 dmg.

 

Okay, so I try my strongest secondary ship that I have: G Kurfurst with the legendary module. I do the same thing, co-op match, go middle of map and stop, firing from both sides of the ship. Enemies slightly further away this time, around 10k range.

 

survey says:

12121.png.3680862c2659062c3be400d13318f729.png

 

68 hits. I only need to get to 1800.

Now, somebody go get Zoup because like he said, brawling isn't dead...:Smile_facepalm:

 

 

 

Ever heard of Harugumo? I can do that mission on 4-5 matches max

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Of course AFTER in invest in Secondary Brawlers because I love aggressive vs passive play they nerf them.

Now my Secondaries go off faster and off both sides but when I look up I see EIGHT HITS!!!

Even with my German commanders Secondaires buff active, I zoom in and you can see hundreds of rounds going everywhere BUT at  the target.

It was an obvious nerf with sound effects and light show that are supposed to make you think differently.

ON OCCASION I can get into an actual brawl but people are learning that with the nerf they do not have to fear or respect us anymore and they stand and fight against our sub par MAINS that the seconds were supposed to compensate for.

Plain and simple.

That said SMOLLY < Friesland, Atlanta and a whole bunch of other ships will do that mission REALLY fast!

Edited by Col_Nasty

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39 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I'm sure the OP knows that the fastest way to do this is to take the fastest-firing DDs and cruisers he has into co-op and rack up main battery hits (which also count).

However, as is typical of him, he's going to do it the hard way and use it to get on his soapbox about BB secondary-battery nerfs. It's a dishonest, underhanded way of going about things.

Yes, I'm sure there are faster ways of getting this directive done, but maybe in this case, the point isn't really about the directive, it IS about secondaries accuracy, or lack thereof. Dishonest, underhanded? I wouldn't go THAT far. His post illustrates the problem with secondaries accuracy. This isn't about how fast to complete this particular directive. His hit rate at 15.2% in what is most likely a Co-Op game played at NORMAL ranges (not just going broadside to a battleship forever getting secondary hits) DOES indicate problems with the accuracy.

However, as most of you have stated, a cruiser or DD with fast firing guns is the BEST way to complete this mission, obviously, since you cannot count on reliable secondaries hits. OR, if you're lucky to get up close to a BB before it's sunk, then you can use that BB as a sponge for secondary hits at point-blank, so long as that BB doesn't sink you first :P But again, that's ultimately not the point of this post, I'm fairly sure.

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1 minute ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

it IS about secondaries accuracy, or lack thereof.

I'm not feeling that. My secondaries still do exactly what I want them to do.

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

If you are lucky and end up with a BB just for you to farm on your side, you can easily farm 400+ secondary hits

Correct. IF you are lucky. But it's not always that easy to just "get a BB for yourself" like that, since everyone on your team is gunning for it XD but when you do get the chance, it IS a great way of farming secondary hits, yes. Even with accuracy as bad as it is. At Point-blank though, against a BB, you SHOULD be hitting.

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22 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

I'm not feeling that. My secondaries still do exactly what I want them to do.

I respectfully and vehemently disagree with you there. They are NOT doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is dealing reliable supplementary damage. Not at those hit rates they're not! ISBA needs a buff as much as Dead Eye needs to be changed, actually even more so! I mean, when your average hitrate against a DD is 11.5% and that DROPS in Randoms, you know you have a problem. You're NOT setting fires, you're NOT hitting. You are using secondaries as a proc machine for the main battery reload boost, and that is NOT their real job. Sure, the main battery reload boost is nice, but again, it's not making up for the loss in secondaries accuracy, no.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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I was working on potential damage and I found Pommern to be a good ship for that and It is a full secondary build. In Co op, so less time to actually get secondary hits. My results were slightly different than the OP's, then again, I didn't park in the middle of the map and I turned the secondaries off when planes were incoming, so I wouldn't shoot them down before I could collect as much potential damage as possible, because WGs missions make you do things, that any sane captain would never do, just to finish a developers ill conceived mission parameters. Please point this out to the staff @Hapa_Fodder.

image.thumb.png.37c89e2cd45ab358844591d83822e465.png

image.thumb.png.8ff085ad403aec76e7e994b5589a325c.png

image.thumb.png.b752ba6e24549ab16af2f333d9356fa2.png

image.thumb.png.6547c84ccac5fb396edff32ee73014c3.png

image.thumb.png.a35cf47cb40361ff95d9674dbe038f67.png

image.thumb.png.b19fe2ea955f1db99a5ba80bcb15578a.png

image.thumb.png.0f14060b98ba22a2874ae9ffcf4244fe.png

image.thumb.png.512219e714301a974a2e2c544fb7572d.png

 

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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15 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

I was working on potential damage and I found Pommern to be a good ship for that and It is a full secondary build. In Co op, so less time to actually get secondary hits.

image.thumb.png.37c89e2cd45ab358844591d83822e465.png

image.thumb.png.8ff085ad403aec76e7e994b5589a325c.png

image.thumb.png.b752ba6e24549ab16af2f333d9356fa2.png

image.thumb.png.6affa28f775a17a8afdc9f668014cec0.png

 

Nice! Good to see a decent hitrate in that 206k damage match, even if it IS Co-Op (it's a LOT easier to get secondary hits in Co-Op than a Random battle). What was your total secondary shots fired on the second match (the one where you got 162 hits)? Just curious to see how Pommern is actually doing. Of course, other variables have to be considered, such as range to target, number of secondaries engaged, whether target ships are fore or broadside, etc.

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1 hour ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

They are NOT doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is dealing reliable supplementary damage. 

Write out ten thousand times with blood on parchment, "Your primary armament is your main guns and/or torpedoes. Any secondary damage is a lucky bonus." :Smile-_tongue:

My secondaries are a tool. Primarily they are there to complete directives where called for. Secondarily, they are there to light fires if I'm lucky and make low-health enemy ships' captains nervous that I might set the permafire which kills them and costs their side the game. I'm grateful for every bit of HP they take off an opponent, but I'm not going to rely on them to be killers.

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9 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Nice! Good to see a decent hitrate in that 206k damage match, even if it IS Co-Op (it's a LOT easier to get secondary hits in Co-Op than a Random battle). What was your total secondary shots fired on the second match (the one where you got 162 hits)? Just curious to see how Pommern is actually doing. Of course, other variables have to be considered, such as range to target, number of secondaries engaged, whether target ships are fore or broadside, etc.

Oops got the wrong image in there, fixed it, now it shows the details. Secondary details don't actually show how much you get for 10% off of your main battery reload and players aren't taking that into account in their secondary battery assessment.

Edited by Sovereigndawg

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3 minutes ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Write out ten thousand times with blood on parchment, "Your primary armament is your main guns and/or torpedoes. Any secondary damage is a lucky bonus." :Smile-_tongue:

My secondaries are a tool. Primarily they are there to complete directives where called for. Secondarily, they are there to light fires if I'm lucky and make low-health enemy ships' captains nervous that I might set the permafire which kills them and costs their side the game. I'm grateful for every bit of HP they take off an opponent, but I'm not going to rely on them to be killers.

They got nerfed. The USN BBs are still good ships though. 

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2 hours ago, Valas1 said:

You weren't close enough.  If you really need to farm hits that badly, enter co-op, and scrape paint. Also, you can do main battery hits.  Fire up a CL or gunboat DD and blast away. They don't have to deal damage, just hit.

Two words:  Smolensk - Minotaur

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Just now, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

Write out ten thousand times with blood on parchment, "Your primary armament is your main guns and/or torpedoes. Any secondary damage is a lucky bonus." :Smile-_tongue:

My secondaries are a tool. Primarily they are there to complete directives where called for. Secondarily, they are there to light fires if I'm lucky and make low-health enemy ships' captains nervous that I might set the permafire which kills them and costs their side the game. I'm grateful for every bit of HP they take off an opponent, but I'm not going to rely on them to be killers.

Now you're just trolling :P

Do you understand what SUPPLEMENTARY DAMAGE means? It sure as heck doesn't mean primary damage. Secondary damage also isn't meant to be a "lucky bonus", otherwise what would be the point of having secondaries in the first place if they only hit once in a blue moon?! I'm not relying on secondaries to be "killers", you misunderstand like many others for some reason. What I'm wanting from them is to actually hit a target at least 10% more than they have been. Secondaries will NEVER be primary damage dealers! (Except maybe on Mikasa, right? :P) But as they are right now, they're not even SECONDARY damage dealers, due to the missing accuracy.

(Hit Rate Testing with T7 California vs T9 Yugumo)

All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 10.2%, 14.4%, 10.6%, 11.4%, 11.3%, 11.5%, 9.6%, 12.5%, 15.2%, 8.3%
Average = approx. 11.5%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 10.7% ->14.8%

And remember, this is in CONTROLLED testing. Imagine Random battles? This value drops even further, almost 5%.

IMPROVED DISPERSION TEST (T5 Oklahoma vs T9 Yugumo)
All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 21.7%, 14.7%, 13.5%, 14.7%, 18.2%, 22.9%, 10.8%, 22.4%, 21.5%, 23.9%
Average = approx. 18.4%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 14.4% ->22.5%

I'm sorry but the math just doesn't lie. The hit rates are NOT good. no one cares about secondaries being "killers". We just want them to do their job and provide RELIABLE SUPPLEMENTARY DAMAGE alongside main battery fire. But if they're not hitting, then what's the point? They are glorified proc enablers atm for CQC's main battery reload boost.

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6 minutes ago, Rollingonit said:

They got nerfed. The USN BBs are still good ships though. 

They're the "least affected" at least. Still sub-20% hitrates, although that's with a FULL secondaries build, you'd think they'd be hitting at sub-30% hitrate for the amount of skill points you're pouring in to get that.

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3 hours ago, OuijaApologist said:

I

The secondary hits mission in this phase of the Italian Battleships event shows how bad they have been nerfed

 

 

It isn't a secondary hits mission.  It is a hits mission.  It was made with the assumption that people would mostly be doing it with things like Harugumo, Minotaur and Worcester.  Secondary hits missions in the past never required that many hits because secondaries aren't, and never were, as reliable as main batteries are.

Edited by Helstrem

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8 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

Oops got the wrong image in there, fixed it, now it shows the details. Secondary details don't actually show how much you get for 10% off of your main battery reload and players aren't taking that into account in their secondary battery assessment.

No problem, I know that. That's why I just asked to see number of hits vs shots fired. In order to actually account for all those variable, you'd have to actually remember what ranges you were at and all that approximately, which, since you weren't checking on stuff like that, you wouldn't know. That's why testing in a controlled environment is a bit better overall for stuff like that : )

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4 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

They're the "least affected" at least. Still sub-20% hitrates, although that's with a FULL secondaries build, you'd think they'd be hitting at sub-30% hitrate for the amount of skill points you're pouring in to get that.

Hit rates cannot be directly compared anymore because of the less accurate fire coming from secondaries that cannot bare on the designated target.  You need to compare damage and total hits.  Yes, this changes the flavor of secondaries and alters the balance as a DD repellant.

Edited by Helstrem

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8 minutes ago, WhiteCoatClubber said:

Two words:  Smolensk - Minotaur

You forgot Harugumo

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4 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Now you're just trolling :P

No, I'm just indicating that we have wildly differing expectations of our secondary armament and that's going to colour our attitudes to any changes that have happened/might happen going forwards.

It also depends on what we think WG was actually trying to do. By nerfing demolition expert, removing BFT and AFT from cruisers and toning down secondaries, I think WG was trying to find a way to address the complaint of endless fire spam from various sources. We can debate whether that was the case or, assuming it is, whether it was the best way to do that - but I believe that was the underlying motivation.

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