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pepe_trueno

BBs super heavy AP skill

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may be not as bad as outnumbered skill but 5% increaced AP damage in exchange  of 30% increace duration of fire and flooding has to be one of the worst skills introduced in the rework.  

wanted to know people opinion on the skill aswell as some brainstorming on how to fix or rework this skill.

first idea that come to mind was 10% increaced AP damage, -15% to shell initial speed, a change that  rewards close range combat.   

 

an alternative could be a skill that makes BBs main guns AP less spiky say:

reduced damage

 shorter fuse

lower armor threshold to triger the fuse

overmatch raised from 14.3 times the thickness of an armor plate to 16 times the thickness of an armor plate

 

    

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With 400+ ships of various traits, abilities, & stats, I am surprised they juke with the game as much as they do..   It only makes for a nightmare trying to re-balance all of it out.     Typically when something of this breadth is bejiggered with on such a scale, it ends up being a bigger mess than when it was started. 

 

We're only into the first few weeks of the 'new' system.  Already, WeeGee is announcing major fixes and changes to fix the problems the changes were supposed to 'fix' in the first place.  LoL.  Cue the circus music -- Who the hell is running this operation.   What a fiasco.   Someone, or group of people, are in positions they have no business being in.   

 

 

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1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

may be not as bad as outnumbered skill but 5% increaced AP damage in exchange  of 30% increace duration of fire and flooding has to be one of the worst skills introduced in the rework.  

 wanted to know people opinion on the skill aswell as some brainstorming on how to fix or rework this skill.

Super Heavy AP Shells is worse. Outnumbered is simply a waste of 4 pts the majority of the time, while this skill actually helps the enemy kill you faster.

As far as fixing it: simply remove the penalty so it’s effect is identical to Heavy AP Shells for cruisers. A 5% damage buff isn’t crazy, and with the number of valuable 3 and 4 pt skills for battleships the opportunity cost will also help to balance the skill.

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1 hour ago, pepe_trueno said:

may be not as bad as outnumbered skill but 5% increaced AP damage in exchange  of 30% increace duration of fire and flooding has to be one of the worst skills introduced in the rework.  

wanted to know people opinion on the skill aswell as some brainstorming on how to fix or rework this skill.

first idea that come to mind was 10% increaced AP damage, -15% to shell initial speed, a change that  rewards close range combat.   

 

an alternative could be a skill that makes BBs main guns AP less spiky say:

reduced damage

 shorter fuse

lower armor threshold to triger the fuse

overmatch raised from 14.3 times the thickness of an armor plate to 16 times the thickness of an armor plate

 

    

A much simpler solution is to have the effect kick in only in citadel hits. 

+10% to citadel strike damage. 

There is no need to change the penalty. You counter it completely by using a signal flag and a ship fire fighting equipment. 

Changing it to citadel hits makes the times the skill effect triggers be very low compared to it working 100% of the time on pens,overpens,etc. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Super Heavy AP Shells is worse. Outnumbered is simply a waste of 4 pts the majority of the time, while this skill actually helps the enemy kill you faster.

As far as fixing it: simply remove the penalty so it’s effect is identical to Heavy AP Shells for cruisers. A 5% damage buff isn’t crazy, and with the number of valuable 3 and 4 pt skills for battleships the opportunity cost will also help to balance the skill.

Agreed completely.  As it stands I refuse to take a skill that comes with such dreadful negatives.

It would be nice for WG to make numbers about how often skills are chosen public.  It would be very interesting to see how often certain skills actually get picked...

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It depends on your ship. I don't put Super Heavy AP on any BB with smaller guns. I use it on my kremlins 457's and the Yamatos of course. I would not use it on my Conqueror(419's) or my Republique(431's) because the trade off in extra AP is not worth it unless the shells are larger. 

On the Yamato for example that's an extra 740 per shell/barrel so with 9 guns your looking at 6,660 extra AP weight if all shells landed on a broadside. An extra 6600 adds up if your slinging an average of 24 volleys every 12 minutes. That's an extra 159,840 potential damage you could of done. Let's say you only do 15% of that in the 12 minute mark, that would still be an extra 23,976 damage per game. If your a better shot and can aim and do just 25% of that potential then your looking at an extra 40,000 damage just from that one skill. Live longer than 12 minutes, say the game goes on for 16 minutes then the numbers get even larger. 

Don't even get me started on the Georgia which has a standard shell AP of 15,750 and once you add in Super AP you get a whopping 16,538 AP potential for each shell. That is gonna hurt when it lands and believe me, it really adds up with the faster firing guns. 

The trade off is you burn/flood longer but this can be offset somewhat with other skills. If you take the Captain skill Basics of Survivability and the upgrade Damage Control System Mod 2 that will greatly help with your burning and flooding. Also, remember that most HE can be healed so use your heals at the right times.  If you find yourself being burned a lot, it might be your positioning on the map that is allowing you to take so much incoming fire. 

Games like these don't lie, the Super AP is one of my fav skills lately.

Ga.jpg

Georgia.jpg

yam.jpg

yam2.jpg

Yamato.jpg

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10 minutes ago, Lord_Argus said:

snip

Those are some nice numbers, especially considering several of those battles are single-kills only (not a criticism).

Maybe worth testing it out myself - food for thought certainly...

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1 hour ago, Lord_Argus said:

On the Yamato for example that's an extra 740 per shell/barrel so with 9 guns your looking at 6,660 extra AP weight if all shells landed on a broadside. 

This is assuming citadel hits. Most damaging hits you land with AP are penetrations that only deal 1/3 of the max damage listed in port, so the practical difference is closer to ~247 damage per shell.

1 hour ago, Lord_Argus said:

Don't even get me started on the Georgia which has a standard shell AP of 15,750 and once you add in Super AP you get a whopping 16,538 AP potential for each shell.

The difference for regular penetrations is ~263 damage per shell.

IMO, survivability is the better option. By prolonging your time in the game you deal more damage. More survivability also allows you to play more aggressively and position more effectively to contest objectives and exert map control, as well as more effectively deal damage.

Edited by Nevermore135

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3 hours ago, pepe_trueno said:

may be not as bad as outnumbered skill but 5% increaced AP damage in exchange  of 30% increace duration of fire and flooding has to be one of the worst skills introduced in the rework.  

wanted to know people opinion on the skill aswell as some brainstorming on how to fix or rework this skill.

first idea that come to mind was 10% increaced AP damage, -15% to shell initial speed, a change that  rewards close range combat.   

Wargaming should literally just remove the downside, I mean 5% more AP damage ISN'T really doing much for you. Take California's AP shells, they deal 10,500 damage on a citadel....so with 5% more it's now 11,025. So that's like a 525 damage increase per shell, great! UNTIL you realize that most of your damage is coming from penetrations, not citadels, so then...

10500 / 3 = 3500 damage per shell

vs.

11,025 / 3 = 3675 damage per shell

I mean...so you get 175 more damage per pen....is that REALLY worth it? DEFINITELY NOT with the ridiculous fire and flooding duration increases, ouch.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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1 hour ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Wargaming should literally just remove the downside, I mean 5% more AP damage ISN'T really doing much for you. Take California's AP shells, they deal 10,500 damage on a citadel....so with 5% more it's now 11,025. So that's like a 525 damage increase per shell, great! UNTIL you realize that most of your damage is coming from penetrations, not citadels, so then...

10500 / 3 = 3500 damage per shell

vs.

11,025 / 3 = 3675 damage per shell

I mean...so you get 175 more damage per pen....is that REALLY worth it? DEFINITELY NOT with the ridiculous fire and flooding duration increases, ouch.

You should not be putting Super AP on that ship anyway. Only on ships with bigger guns is it worth it. 

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Heavier shells have more stability in flight and greater momentum.

Given the skill name it ought to increase damage, increase penetration, improve penetration angles, and reduce dispersion.

THEN it might be worth the negatives, but might be OP.

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16 minutes ago, Lord_Argus said:

You should not be putting Super AP on that ship anyway. Only on ships with bigger guns is it worth it. 

Fair enough, I was using it as an example, but let's use Yamato then:

14800 / 3 = approx. 4933 damage per shell

15540 / 3 = 5180 damage per shell

I mean, my point still stands though...is the skill REALLY worth those 247 damage per pen? Ehhhh, not with the crazy penalties attached, no.

 

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49 minutes ago, Lord_Argus said:

You should not be putting Super AP on that ship anyway. Only on ships with bigger guns is it worth it. 

I wouldn't even use it on Shikishima.  It is terrible.

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6 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

I wouldn't even use it on Shikishima.  It is terrible.

Thats your opinion and if your not good at BB's then I completely understand. They might just not be your thing

Edited by Lord_Argus
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5 hours ago, Farm_Fresh_Eggs said:

With 400+ ships of various traits, abilities, & stats, I am surprised they juke with the game as much as they do..   It only makes for a nightmare trying to re-balance all of it out.     Typically when something of this breadth is bejiggered with on such a scale, it ends up being a bigger mess than when it was started. 

 

We're only into the first few weeks of the 'new' system.  Already, WeeGee is announcing major fixes and changes to fix the problems the changes were supposed to 'fix' in the first place.  LoL.  Cue the circus music -- Who the hell is running this operation.   What a fiasco.   Someone, or group of people, are in positions they have no business being in.   

 

 

We were far better off with the old system.  It wasn't perfect, but we had 5.5 years of the Live Game to iron it out.  The Skill Rebork resets that effort back to Day 1 levels of balance.  This is going to continuously plague us for a good while.  This isn't like the CV Rebork where it only affected Carriers and AA.  The Skill Rebork affected everything, right down to its very roots.

 

It's stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

On the subject for BB Skill "Super Heavy AP" it's stupid, stupid, stupid, STUPID.  You have to be a complete moron to slot that trait.

 

Even on Shikashima with a very strong AP shell, the skill only grants +970 extra AP damage.  Other Battleships will have less of an increase.  For that, Fires / Floods go 30% longer on you.  What moron slots this???

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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4 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even on Shikashima with a very strong AP shell, the skill only grants +970 extra AP damage.  For that, Fires / Floods go 30% longer on you.  What moron slots this???

I don't take the skill, but I've thought about it. In three games last night, each game had 1-2 red ships survive a salvo of mine with 150-600 HP. That's common enough to be typical.

An extra 5% damage per salvo would have secured me more kills and allowed me to switch targets 30 seconds sooner in a couple cases.

A 5% increase in damage output can mean red ships guns silenced sooner, which has a snowballing effect vis-a-vis Lancaster's Laws. It might be worth it in closely balanced matches.

So far, though, I've prioritized my own ship's durability.

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Just now, Lord_Argus said:

Thats your opinion and if your not good at BB's then I completely understand. They might just not be your thing

Well, it is a pretty complex interaction so it is hard to game the absolute effect out.  If you are under constant HE spam it isn't really 30% longer fire duration as there is little difference between a fire that burns for 30% longer and one that extinguishes only to be immediately relit.

That said, taking more damage is taking more damage and in compensation you get 5% more damage.  Citadel/Penetration/Overpenetration doesn't really matter as the end total, assuming you just use AP (which you should in any of the Yamato hulls), so looking at it that way, all things being equal (which may well not be the case), it would have changed my highest damage Shikishima match from 202,417 damage to 212,537 damage.   Is that worth the somewhat longer fires and floods?  That would depend on your style.  In general, I don't think so.

Also it is 5%, it doesn't matter how big the guns are.  If the guns are AP focused, or the player focuses on AP, then 5% is 5%.  It doesn't matter if the guns are 305mm or 510mm.

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20 minutes ago, Incomitatus said:

I don't take the skill, but I've thought about it. In three games last night, each game had 1-2 red ships survive a salvo of mine with 150-600 HP. That's common enough to be typical.

An extra 5% damage per salvo would have secured me more kills and allowed me to switch targets 30 seconds sooner in a couple cases.

A 5% increase in damage output can mean red ships guns silenced sooner, which has a snowballing effect vis-a-vis Lancaster's Laws. It might be worth it in closely balanced matches.

So far, though, I've prioritized my own ship's durability.

You could have still smashed those near dead ships easily if RNG was a bit kinder, landing 1 extra shell.  And you'd still not have Super Heavy AP letting Fires / Floods run 30% longer on you.

The former is pure luck.  But that Fire / Flood penalty where they run 30% longer on you is going to happen 100% of the time.

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3 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The former is pure luck.  But that Fire / Flood penalty where they run 30% longer on you is going to happen 100% of the time.

It would be a small hedge against bad luck.

Regarding fires and floods... most matches I don't flood with DCP on cooldown. That's just not a major factor.

Fires are the real deal, but it's far from 100% of games where I have fires I can't put out or directly counter with RP. Maybe 50% of matches, usually with CVs in play. I also have a near-lifetime supply of fire duration signals, and it's easy enough to farm more.

But it is fires that give me pause, and the trade-off of taking some other skill. I doubt I'll ever take it, but I don't think the case is quite as clear as you do.

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I use it on a Shikishima for psychological effects.

 

When people hear how a single shell can chuck away more than 20k health, they begin to sweat.

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