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cheekywarship2018

Axis v.s. Allies goes into ST

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The tittle says it all, for those asking for a historical game mode, you now sort of have it. 

The first iteration of this will be in a 12 v 12 format with tier 8 ships (bots will be used to fill slots if there aren't enough players).

One very interesting caveat of the line up of ships is that you can only use ships that are real (and their clones with fancy camos). Now what Wargaming defines as real is a bit misleading as they only mean ships that were completed and commissioned. A good example of this is Amagi which we all know was started but her construction was cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty, is not on that list. 

 

I honestly think that this is an interesting concept but if it is to be developed any further, there are some glaring issues which need to addressed, most notably that not a single Axis ships has access to Radar. 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122

Edited by cheekywarship2018

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8 minutes ago, cheekywarship2018 said:

The tittle says it all, for those asking for a historical game mode, you now sort of have it. 

The first iteration of this will be in a 12 v 12 format with tier 8 ships (bots will be used to fill slots if there aren't enough players).

One very interesting caveat of the line up of ships is that you can only use ships that are real (and their clones with fancy camos). Now what Wargaming defines as real is a bit misleading as they only mean ships that were completed and commissioned. A good example of this is Amagi which we all know was started but her construction was cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty, is not on that list. 

 

I honestly think that this is an interesting concept but if it is to be developed any further, there are some glaring issues which need to addressed, most notably that not a single Axis ships has access to Radar. 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122

It’s not the First Happy Time, It is now the First Radar Time.

Oh, how the turn tables.

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2 minutes ago, capncrunch21 said:

It's about dang time. We've only been asking for this since Beta - nearly SIX years ago.

They had a similar mode 3 yrs back, for Cherry Blossom or the Dunkirk promotion...

I dont have high hopes for this one..

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It's too bad they didn't do a T6-T8 spread. There'd be a lot more diversity of choice then- Italy has no non-paper cruisers at T8, but one CA and one CL each at T6 and T7, plus one more BB (Andrea Doria); France, likewise, has no non-paper cruisers at T8, but a CL at T6 and a CA at T7, Dunkerque, Strasbourg, and three more DDs; Germany gets Nurnberg, Graf Spee, the Scharnhorsts and two T7 DDs; Europe gains Blyskawica; the US gains almost* the whole slate of in-game Pearl Harbor ships (Arizona, West Virginia, California, New Orleans, Helena, Farragut, and Monaghan), Ranger, Mahan, Sims, New Mexico, Colorado, Boise, Atlanta (and B), Flint, Indianapolis, and Pensacola; USSR gets Molotov; IJN gains a gaggle of DDs and CAs, plus Fuso and Nagato; UK gets half a dozen BBs that actually saw wartime service (unlike Vanguard), Ark Royal, several cruisers and DDs... several Commonwealth ships also would get to make an appearance.

It's a really cool idea, but it's too bad that some of the most storied ships of the era are below the chosen tier.

Nitpicks: Oland shouldn't be on the list of included ships- Sweden was neutral in WWII, and she's a post-war ship anyway. Saipan wasn't commissioned until 1946, so she's out too. None of the Pan-Asian ships should be on the list either, as they're post-WWII refits of ships sold or transferred after the end of the war.

*edit- excepting Oklahoma, at T5...

Edited by Wrath_Of_Deadguy
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18 minutes ago, Wrath_Of_Deadguy said:

It's too bad they didn't do a T6-T8 spread. There'd be a lot more diversity of choice then- Italy has no non-paper cruisers at T8, but one CA and one CL each at T6 and T7, plus one more BB (Andrea Doria); France, likewise, has no non-paper cruisers at T8, but a CL at T6 and a CA at T7, Dunkerque, Strasbourg, and three more DDs; Germany gets Nurnberg, Graf Spee, the Scharnhorsts and two T7 DDs; Europe gains Blyskawica; the US gains the whole slate of in-game Pearl Harbor ships (Arizona, West Virginia, California, New Orleans, Helena, Farragut, and Monaghan), Ranger, Mahan, Sims, New Mexico, Colorado, Boise, Atlanta (and B), Flint, Indianapolis, and Pensacola; USSR gets Molotov; IJN gains a gaggle of DDs and CAs, plus Fuso and Nagato; UK gets half a dozen BBs that actually saw wartime service (unlike Vanguard), Ark Royal, several cruisers and DDs... several Commonwealth ships also would get to make an appearance.

It's a really cool idea, but it's too bad that some of the most storied ships of the era are below the chosen tier.

Nitpicks: Oland shouldn't be on the list of included ships- Sweden was neutral in WWII, and she's a post-war ship anyway. Saipan wasn't commissioned until 1946, so she's out too. None of the Pan-Asian ships should be on the list either, as they're post-WWII refits of ships sold or transferred after the end of the war.

They NEED to make it T6-T8, absolutely.

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Very cool,have to agree it should be tiers 6-8 thos graf spee warsp[ite and then u need bismark scharnhorst etc as well.

Id be fine with this mode not have ANY ships capable with radar.

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1 hour ago, Capitan_Crunch said:

Id be fine with this mode not have ANY ships capable with radar.

Literally every American ship built post-1943 would like to have a word with you.

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2 hours ago, cheekywarship2018 said:

A good example of this is Amagi which we all know was started but her construction was cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty, is not on that list. 

That still means she was not completed. Otherwise, Graf Zeppelin would have been eligible on that mode, in which she would not be according to the devblog.

Edited by King_of_Avercland

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People have been asking for something like this for years.  I'm actually surprised WG took it a step further with completed ships, that takes balls.

 

Note that Allies are the only ones with Radar Cruisers.  Someone long ago made a thread suggesting Axis vs Allies, but I warned them that the ships with the fancy capabilities are Allies.  Think about it:

- You're an Allied DD player.  How would you like knowing that there are no enemy Radar Cruisers to harass you?

- You're an Axis DD player:  How would you like knowing that there can be enemy Radar Cruisers, but also that none of your teams will ever have Radar Cruiser support?

 

It gets more interesting for Tier IX-X if you keep to historical ships, because a lot of lineups would disappear past Tier VIII.

KM / Germany

- Cruisers & Destroyers & Battleships end at Tier VIII

- Their entire CV Line disappears!  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

6cK9gyP.gif?noredirect

Russia

- Battleship Line stops at Tier IV, except for Tier V Okt.Rev which is a Premium Ship.

- Tier VIII Radar Cruiser Chapayev was real.

Not sure outside their BBs.  There's a lot of real ships, even post-WWII stuff, but there's also a lot of paper.

RM / Italy

- BB Line would end at Tier VIII.

- Cruiser Line would end at Tier VII

- Giulio Cesare is historical!  Yay!

MN / France

- DD Line caps at Tier IX Mogador.

- Tech Tree BBs end at Tier VIII but Tier IX Premium Jean Bart was real.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VII Algerie.

IJN / Japan

- The great privilege of fielding the ONLY Tier X Battleship in the game.  Yamato would be Queen.  Musashi in Tier IX would be 1 of 4 BBs there (Her, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart).

- Unsure about Tier V and below, but Tier VI+ the main IJN DD Line is all historical.  The only historical Gunboat DD is Akizuki.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VIII.

- CV Line ends at Tier VIII.

RN / United Kingdom

- Tech Tree BB Line ends at Tier VII, but Tier VIII Premium BB Vanguard was real.

- Unsure about the historical lineups for their DDs & Cruisers.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

- Tier VII Winfast is historical!  Yay!

USN / United States - These boys are loaded!

- BB Line caps at Tier IX with Iowa & Missouri.

- DD Line can reach to Tier X with historical ships.

- Cruiser Line reaches to Tier X.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

 

Mind you, just because some of these lines reach Tier X or something like that, they may still have paper ships in the Line.  USN Cruisers for example, reach Tier X with Des Memes, Salem, and Worcester.  But VI Dallas, IX Buffalo, IX Seattle are paper and would disappear.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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curious any limits or can it end up being 12 massa vs 12 bismarck?

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56 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

People have been asking for something like this for years.  I'm actually surprised WG took it a step further with completed ships, that takes balls.

 

Note that Allies are the only ones with Radar Cruisers.  Someone long ago made a thread suggesting Axis vs Allies, but I warned them that the ships with the fancy capabilities are Allies.  Think about it:

- You're an Allied DD player.  How would you like knowing that there are no enemy Radar Cruisers to harass you?

- You're an Axis DD player:  How would you like knowing that there can be enemy Radar Cruisers, but also that none of your teams will ever have Radar Cruiser support?

 

It gets more interesting for Tier IX-X if you keep to historical ships, because a lot of lineups would disappear past Tier VIII.

KM / Germany

- Cruisers & Destroyers & Battleships end at Tier VIII

- Their entire CV Line disappears!  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

Russia

- Battleship Line stops at Tier IV, except for Tier V Okt.Rev which is a Premium Ship.

- Tier VIII Radar Cruiser Chapayev was real.

Not sure outside their BBs.  There's a lot of real ships, even post-WWII stuff, but there's also a lot of paper.

RM / Italy

- BB Line would end at Tier VIII.

- Cruiser Line would end at Tier VII

- Giulio Cesare is historical!  Yay!

MN / France

- DD Line caps at Tier IX Mogador.

- Tech Tree BBs end at Tier VIII but Tier IX Premium Jean Bart was real.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VII Algerie.

IJN / Japan

- The great privilege of fielding the ONLY Tier X Battleship in the game.  Yamato would be Queen.  Musashi in Tier IX would be 1 of 4 BBs there (Her, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart).

- Unsure about Tier V and below, but Tier VI+ the main IJN DD Line is all historical.  The only historical Gunboat DD is Akizuki.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VIII.

- CV Line ends at Tier VIII.

RN / United Kingdom

- Tech Tree BB Line ends at Tier VII, but Tier VIII Premium BB Vanguard was real.

- Unsure about the historical lineups for their DDs & Cruisers.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

- Tier VII Winfast is historical!  Yay!

USN / United States - These boys are loaded!

- BB Line caps at Tier IX with Iowa & Missouri.

- DD Line can reach to Tier X with historical ships.

- Cruiser Line reaches to Tier X.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

 

Mind you, just because some of these lines reach Tier X or something like that, they may still have paper ships in the Line.  USN Cruisers for example, reach Tier X with Des Memes, Salem, and Worcester.  But VI Dallas, IX Buffalo, IX Seattle are paper and would disappear.

IJN Torp DD line is all real, Tier II through X.  Gunboat line is real through Tier VIII, but only Tier VIII is really a gunboat.  

Royal Navy DD line is all real, Tier II through X.  CL line is real through Tier VIII.  CA line is real through Tier VII.  CVs are real through Tier VIII unless you want to be really generous and call Audacious real even though it entered service in a completely different configuration than the as designed configuration we have in WoWS.

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59 minutes ago, black_hull4 said:

Literally every American ship built post-1943 would like to have a word with you.

The report from Prince Eugen when it reached Brest was that the RN cruisers were able to keep track of Bismarck & it w/their radar (they surely weren't keeping line of sight track of them or they would have been blown out of the water)...over 6 months before US entered WWII...

Why did you need to go to just the US & all the way up to '43 to miss the point of the comment?

Most of the ships you mentioned are on the list of available ships for the event...but only 2 of them actually have radar in the game...because radar as implemented in the game would be game breaking on all of those ships.

I did suggest Russia could easily be on the Axis side to balance out the radar...but apparently a lot of people don't know their history enough to understand what I meant by that...or they at least think that just because the only official document was a "non aggression pact" that 2 nations simultaneously attacking & dividing up a country (Poland) is not actually an alliance...because the paper work doesn't "officially" declare it.

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38 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

I did suggest Russia could easily be on the Axis side .........

Traitor!! Off to gulag with him!!

38 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

......... to balance out the radar...but apparently a lot of people don't know their history enough to understand what I meant by that...or they at least think that just because the only official document was a "non aggression pact" that 2 nations simultaneously attacking & dividing up a country (Poland) is not actually an alliance...because the paper work doesn't "officially" declare it.

Well , I'm Eu so I'm kinda aware of the  niceties of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. Also lets not forget that until Hitler came to power how many things the USSR hid for the Weimar Republic. But then again, let's go a step further and lets talk how the pols were backstabbed and betrayed at Yalta. WWII was( and some ways still is)  actually a nasty business......  

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1 hour ago, SKurj said:

oh and need a jutland lineup too, lets rotate tiers :)

+1

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

People have been asking for something like this for years.  I'm actually surprised WG took it a step further with completed ships, that takes balls.

 

Note that Allies are the only ones with Radar Cruisers.  Someone long ago made a thread suggesting Axis vs Allies, but I warned them that the ships with the fancy capabilities are Allies.  Think about it:

- You're an Allied DD player.  How would you like knowing that there are no enemy Radar Cruisers to harass you?

- You're an Axis DD player:  How would you like knowing that there can be enemy Radar Cruisers, but also that none of your teams will ever have Radar Cruiser support?

 

It gets more interesting for Tier IX-X if you keep to historical ships, because a lot of lineups would disappear past Tier VIII.

KM / Germany

- Cruisers & Destroyers & Battleships end at Tier VIII

- Their entire CV Line disappears!  BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

6cK9gyP.gif?noredirect

Russia

- Battleship Line stops at Tier IV, except for Tier V Okt.Rev which is a Premium Ship.

- Tier VIII Radar Cruiser Chapayev was real.

Not sure outside their BBs.  There's a lot of real ships, even post-WWII stuff, but there's also a lot of paper.

RM / Italy

- BB Line would end at Tier VIII.

- Cruiser Line would end at Tier VII

- Giulio Cesare is historical!  Yay!

MN / France

- DD Line caps at Tier IX Mogador.

- Tech Tree BBs end at Tier VIII but Tier IX Premium Jean Bart was real.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VII Algerie.

IJN / Japan

- The great privilege of fielding the ONLY Tier X Battleship in the game.  Yamato would be Queen.  Musashi in Tier IX would be 1 of 4 BBs there (Her, Iowa, Missouri, Jean Bart).

- Unsure about Tier V and below, but Tier VI+ the main IJN DD Line is all historical.  The only historical Gunboat DD is Akizuki.

- Cruiser Line ends at Tier VIII.

- CV Line ends at Tier VIII.

RN / United Kingdom

- Tech Tree BB Line ends at Tier VII, but Tier VIII Premium BB Vanguard was real.

- Unsure about the historical lineups for their DDs & Cruisers.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

- Tier VII Winfast is historical!  Yay!

USN / United States - These boys are loaded!

- BB Line caps at Tier IX with Iowa & Missouri.

- DD Line can reach to Tier X with historical ships.

- Cruiser Line reaches to Tier X.

- CV Line would reach Tier X.

 

Mind you, just because some of these lines reach Tier X or something like that, they may still have paper ships in the Line.  USN Cruisers for example, reach Tier X with Des Memes, Salem, and Worcester.  But VI Dallas, IX Buffalo, IX Seattle are paper and would disappear.

I'm particularly "fond" of how they slipped the Kutuzov into the equation, when actually has absolutely no business being there. Or the omission of the Tallinn and the Chapayev both of which actually have.

Edited by Bandi73

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

CVs are real through Tier VIII unless you want to be really generous and call Audacious real even though it entered service in a completely different configuration than the as designed configuration we have in WoWS.

I understand what you're saying, but the issue is WG said if the ship was completed.

"Only ships that were built in reality, as well as their in-game counterparts (such as Black, ARP, Azur Lane ships and etc.) are allowed to enter battle."

 

I know for a fact that Chapayev and Kutuzov were real ships and actually built.  But they are post-WWII ships. 

Another example is that Saipan is allowed.  She was commissioned in 1946, missing the war.

Oland is listed as a usable ship for Axis vs Allies mode... She was commissioned in 1947.  The Swedish Navy didn't even fight in WWII, yet here they are in Axis vs Allies.

52 minutes ago, Bandi73 said:

I'm particularly "fond" of how they slipped the Kutuzov into the equation, when actually has absolutely no business being there. Or the omission of the Tallinn and the Chapayev both of which actually have.

There's a lot of fun stuff going on.

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46 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I understand what you're saying, but the issue is WG said if the ship was completed.

"Only ships that were built in reality, as well as their in-game counterparts (such as Black, ARP, Azur Lane ships and etc.) are allowed to enter battle."

 

I know for a fact that Chapayev and Kutuzov were real ships and actually built.  But they are post-WWII ships. 

Another example is that Saipan is allowed.  She was commissioned in 1946, missing the war.

Oland is listed as a usable ship for Axis vs Allies mode... She was commissioned in 1947.  The Swedish Navy didn't even fight in WWII, yet here they are in Axis vs Allies.

There's a lot of fun stuff going on.

I wasn't speaking to the mode, just clarifying the list I quoted.  Audacious is irrelevant to that as she is Tier X and the mode is Tier VIII.

As to the other stuff, WG didn't say anything about limiting it to WWII ships, just ships built in steel.  It is odd that Oland is there given they have shown the ability to selectively limit ships.  I understand why Orkan is there, but that doesn't justify Oland being there.

I do agree that Axis vs Allies carries the implication of WWII ships and not post war ships like Vanguard, but WG didn't actually say it would be WWII ships.

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7 hours ago, cheekywarship2018 said:

The tittle says it all, for those asking for a historical game mode, you now sort of have it. 

The first iteration of this will be in a 12 v 12 format with tier 8 ships (bots will be used to fill slots if there aren't enough players).

One very interesting caveat of the line up of ships is that you can only use ships that are real (and their clones with fancy camos). Now what Wargaming defines as real is a bit misleading as they only mean ships that were completed and commissioned. A good example of this is Amagi which we all know was started but her construction was cancelled due to the Washington Naval Treaty, is not on that list. 

 

I honestly think that this is an interesting concept but if it is to be developed any further, there are some glaring issues which need to addressed, most notably that not a single Axis ships has access to Radar. 

 

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/122

They tried this in WoWP and the problem they had was most players in the Allied countries wanted to fly Allied planes, and so you would get teams full of players on the Allied side against a team with a player or two and a bunch of bots as filler. It was very one sided. People like to play for their country when it's national. 

 

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

As to the other stuff, WG didn't say anything about limiting it to WWII ships, just ships built in steel.  It is odd that Oland is there given they have shown the ability to selectively limit ships.  I understand why Orkan is there, but that doesn't justify Oland being there.

Kutuzov, being a Sverdlov class cruiser is a post war design, specifically intended for Atlantic operations. Ergo against USN and later NATO. So....Tallinn is the ex Lutzow, built in steel, just not completed. Chapayev is a pre war design, build started before, just not completed  until the end of war. If anything she should be in. 

1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

I do agree that Axis vs Allies carries the implication of WWII ships and not post war ships like Vanguard, but WG didn't actually say it would be WWII ships.

Vanguard is, again, a pre-/war design, built for the war, just not completed in time. 

This whole concept should be T6-8. The MM all the time mix tiers so....just what the heck???

Edited by Bandi73

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2 minutes ago, Bandi73 said:

Kutuzov, being a Sverdlov class cruiser is a post war design, specifically intended for Atlantic operations. Ergo against USN and later NATO. So....Taliin is the ex Lutzow, built in steel, just not completed. Chapayev is a pre war design, build started before, just not completed  until the end of war. If anything she should be in. 

Vanguard is, again, a pre-/war design, built for the war, just not completed. 

This whole concept should be T6-8. The MM all the time mix tiers so....just what the heck???

<woosh>

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3 minutes ago, Helstrem said:

<woosh>

I'm a history buff and I like the Sverdlovs a LOT.

7 minutes ago, Bandi73 said:

This whole concept should be T6-8. The MM all the time mix tiers so....just what the heck???

This was intended for "them". :)

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Radar disparity is an issue,  both IJN and KM vessels had radar particularly gun fire control systems.

 In the opening months of the war the engagement between Adm Hipper and an  RN dd resulted ( G class Gloworm) in the dds destruction due to her smoke failing to conceal her from the Hipper's radar.  The skipper was killed in the action but was awarded a posthumous  Victoria Cross, equivalent of a CMH, for pressing an attack against an overwhelmingly superior enemy.  

 

The Scharnhorst's fate was sealed in the battle of North Cape when HMS Belfast knocked her radar out.

I believe radar will sees queues dominated by US radar cruisers and most battles being US against bots.

In summary,  a good concept but the US technological superiority will make the concept 7nworkable.  A t5 t6 rehash of Battle of Jutland or Dogger Bank would be more workable, although modelling the British ammunition handling practices, say + 25% chance of detonation might make things challenging. 

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