Fun with theorycrafting the T9 CB meta. First set of possible bans?

[eviltane]

Look arguing about CVs is standard practice but lets have a fun thread. 

 

This week I worked up all sorts of Browny points to be able to spend the full night Wednesday playing CBs.   I enjoyed it a lot!  Got to run both Krohnstadt and Jutland. 

Side note :  I am very jelly of those that have the Benham. 

 

Anyway  we run CBs together with a couple of clans and saw some interesting trends. 

1. Super cruisers, especially the  Alaska, are very popular.  Personally I think the Krohnstadt is superior to the Alaska but that may be just me. 

2. French DD spam divs. 

Our own clan only ran into TNG running this setup ( and we lost) but our partner clan Bingo said they ran into a few of them. 

 

So possible first phase of restrictions could be reducing / limiting  the number of Mogadors  and Alaskas  ?  

What do you all think ? What did you all see ? 

 

[Capn_Nugget]

O7 owned my sad clan last night with French dds and other but then again, they could do that to us with Krispy Creme. LOL. We've been battlecruiser heavy including the newer German ones, Musashi for Bb (I did unusually well with her last night). We do have a Benham but tech tree did just fine. Kit might get banned or limited, Mushy too.

[dEsTurbed1]

Tried a mixture of comps.

Found kronshtadt to be too squishy if holding a point.

Said screw it on last match and ran a Georgia,  Hizen and 5 Alaska's....

Lost 1 ship....

The radar, hydro combo chased dds away and the focus fire killed them. Once destroyers were gone was easy peasy win.

 

[DrHolmes52]

Without CVs, (well played) French DDs typically run wild.  So I would think Mogador is likely to be an early limit/ban.

[ToxicSymphony]

Would not be surprised if Mogador, Kita, and/or Alaska get the first limits. I don't think we'd see an outright ban after week 1, but a cap on the number of a certain boat.  EG 1x Mogador max. 

Maybe the first limit is no repeat ships at all, rather than a particular ship.  

[MidnightPhoenix07]

I definitely expect a 1/2 ship cap to go into effect pretty quickly, but as for outright bans I’d bet Mogador is right at the top of that list. Of course, if Mogador gets banned, the meta will probably just switch to lidl Mogador aka Russian gunboats. 

[eviltane]

5 minutes ago, ToxicSymphony said:

Maybe the first limit is no repeat ships at all, rather than a particular ship.  

You know id rather love seeing that.  We did a bunch of scrims on that basis and it led to quite a bit of diversity.  Even Ibuki saw action with those settings. 

[SuperUnicumInBed]

We ran this build for CB 

What we run is Georgia, Georgia, Neustrashimy, and four Mogadors.

If you look at most tier IX cruisers they do not have the speed, concealment, or even DPM of same tier DDs (And DDs also do not have a citadel) The French DDs take somewhat of a role of a cruiser, but act at the same time as a destroyer. They sport the same (if not close) DPM of their cruiser counterparts. At the same time having access to speed boost and low profile. Making them more durable under fire. Sure CA have better armor, but 20mm-30mm of armor (and large profile) doesn't cut it whereas if you negate most or all damage with speed.

The four French DDs work in "packs" where they rush caps catching the enemy DDs off guard and quickly eliminating them before they have time to react or gain support. Thus letting their flank collapse.

The Neustrashimy's job is to be a "torpedo" bote while  at the same time can tank some damage letting it's super heal regain lost hp back if it was caught in unfavorable circumstances. Neustrashimy also smokes a large area and let the French DDs come through and HE spam their targets while their targets have 0 vision of the enemy team. At range combat, most CA will have a difficult time hitting the French DDs because of the swiftness and on top of that some tier IX CA guns are low velocity.

The Georgia's job is to overmatch cruisers armor with it's accurate 457mm guns, and also (with it's engine boost) rapidly move with DDs providing effective tanking. Though: A BB's role in a battlefield is more distraction rather than farming damage, but still serves for overmatching and devstrike purposes.

With speed, and DPM on our side: We can do blitzkreig warfare.

Since there's no CVs present - this strategy is more effective than running two BBs, 4 CA, and 1 regular DD.

You may ask:  "How about tier IX super cruisers? Do they play a role in competitive?" 

 After the skill rework, the super cruisers can't tank for long periods of time and can be easily out-DPMed, and out-maneuvered by smaller "French Bageuttes"  Super cruisers caliber is 305mm which doesn't overmatch most cruiser armor. The HE DPM is very low. Not to mention other problems like extended fire duration and vulnerability to HE spam. Sure, they have access to radar and hydro and other pluses, but the weaknesses negate the strengths. Not the strengths negating the weakness.

 

 

Musashi, Kitakaze, Benham, and few other ships are good for competitive also.

At tier X you might see a little bit more CA's, but you need to form a plan and select the right ships to carry out the plan.

[Compassghost]

7 Paolo Emilios. You can't kill them all.

[AdmiralFox08]

4 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

7 Paolo Emilios. You can't kill them all.

seriously? lol

[Compassghost]

Just now, AdmiralFox08 said:

seriously? lol

 

They go 60 knots and can share smoke. The only chasers who can catch up are French DDs, so Paolos can choose their engagement.

Splitting into groups of 2 or 3 allows one group to spot for the YOLO rushes. 27K HP is a lot of HP to work through, and Paolo has 60mm side plate and no citadel, so most you can kill is one. The other one should trade evenly or higher in range and nuke any battleships nad cruisers.

[SKurj]

ooo really...

 

[sapient007]

46 minutes ago, Compassghost said:

7 Paolo Emilios. You can't kill them all.

Problem is to find 7 good Paolo though, people miss play her so hard based on my rank experience.

If you can from a team, sure. 

[Shannon_Lindsey]

I guarantee the first ship affected will be Alaska. Mogodor is popular with the well known Hurricane clans, but it is not omnipresent across all teams nearly to the degree that Alaska is. Everyone is running at least one Alaska, and often multiples. Considering that it was recently put on the naughty list anyway, there is no way it doesn't get banned at the first announcement in two weeks. Once it is gone, I am expecting that there will be a healthy mix of Buffalo, Riga, and Donskoi to replace them, and that is fine as those ships do not offer nearly the same power level.

[eviltane]

5 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I guarantee the first ship affected will be Alaska. Mogodor is popular with the well known Typhoon clans, but it is not omnipresent across all teams nearly to the degree that Alaska is. Everyone is running at least one Alaska, and often multiples. Considering that it was recently put on the naughty list anyway, there is no way it doesn't get banned at the first announcement in two weeks. Once it is gone, I am expecting that there will be a healthy mix of Buffalo, Riga, and Donskoi to replace them, and that is fine as those ships do not offer nearly the same power level.

Ohhh where you getting the 2 week time frame for the first announcement?  just curious what I missed. 

[Shannon_Lindsey]

5 minutes ago, eviltane said:

Ohhh where you getting the 2 week time frame for the first announcement?  just curious what I missed. 

When they first announced bannings and restrictions would happen this season, they also said they would give the meta a couple of weeks to settle before making any changes.

"they can be implemented only after the first two weeks of the season and replaced with others after a few more weeks."

[ArIskandir]

27 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I guarantee the first ship affected will be Alaska. Mogodor is popular with the well known Typhoon clans, but it is not omnipresent across all teams nearly to the degree that Alaska is. Everyone is running at least one Alaska, and often multiples. Considering that it was recently put on the naughty list anyway, there is no way it doesn't get banned at the first announcement in two weeks. Once it is gone, I am expecting that there will be a healthy mix of Buffalo, Riga, and Donskoi to replace them, and that is fine as those ships do not offer nearly the same power level.

Alaska is popular but I don't think she is  game breaking, meta defining or particularly effective in the current circumstances. She can be easily replaced with other ships. She doesn't dominate in a clear way over other choices and I think her popularity will wane once the meta shifts and settles on DD heavy comps.

I think DDs will be prevalent this season given the lack of CV, prevalence of overmatch-able BBs (Georgia, Mushi) and glaring weakness of super cruisers against DDs (DoT vulnerability, low RoF).

Imo, the Mogador comp will be dominant and game breaking and totally deserves to get the first limit. Probably coupled with a similar limit to her direct russian replacements.