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reza577

French and Japanese secondary builds

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Is anyone from WG going to address these? 

 

I want to build my French and shikishima ships in secondary builds... But with the nerf to secondary they never hit anything... 

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58 minutes ago, reza577 said:

Is anyone from WG going to address these? 

 

I want to build my French and shikishima ships in secondary builds... But with the nerf to secondary they never hit anything... 

Blame the CVs for the Secondary nerf...

I think WG is content with the current changes... No changes were instilled in the next patch in PTS.

 

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If not for the IFHE change the French BBs would still be very good secondary ships. For me, I look at the secondary range element, but keep them at starting fires more than doing damage (a hybrid if you will).

Unfortunately when WG addresses one thing they want to via a Global nerf (IFHE) - they capture a lot of other ships in that nerf too; not only the secondaries of some BBs, but also the increased fire chance meta, where some no longer choose the IFHE skill. Of course they made the fire chance skill lower too I guess - nerfs all around! Hooray! :Smile_teethhappy:

Edited by _WaveRider_
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8 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Blame the CVs for the Secondary nerf...

I think WG is content with the current changes... No changes were instilled in the next patch in PTS.

 

You are somehow blaming CVs for the secondary nerf?

A prime example of CV derangement syndrome.

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French secondary builds are trash. Little direct damage and they don't hit anything. I run a secondary build on Amagi and Kii in a desperate attempt to stave off boredom, and they can be fun but also the accuracy nerf hit them hard.

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The accuracy nerf hit everyone but the Germans hard.

What the heck was WG thinking? Was there anyone there who really thought "Hmm secondary builds sure are overperforming..."

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I'll defend the French secondary build for the moment. The French used to take to it somewhat well, provided you were willing to be a little insane. The French don't take well to brawling though and those 3.9" guns are really only good for starting fires. People debated the merits of IFHE back in the before-fore times but it was generally believed to be too expensive for too little benefit. Now though... 

If you really want to screw around with secondary but don't want to commit to the full German as it were; might I recommend a hybrid build? While you do lose out on the accuracy and 15% of the max range, it's still more than enough to harass ships that get close, while doing actual damage to them. All the while retaining enough tankiness to still hold your own. This is how I have my Alsace set up:

 

Capture.PNG

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11 hours ago, reza577 said:

I want to build my French and shikishima ships in secondary builds... 

But why?????

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1 hour ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

What the heck was WG thinking? Was there anyone there who really thought "Hmm secondary builds sure are overperforming..."

Maybe it was "who needs secondaries when you can take Dead Eye and make those secondaries irrelevant". Let the DDs and cruisers (i.e. targets) play in the middle spotting each other and getting blapped.

 

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2 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

Maybe it was "who needs secondaries when you can take Dead Eye and make those secondaries irrelevant". Let the DDs and cruisers (i.e. targets) play in the middle spotting each other and getting blapped.

 

Even in the Old Skill System, forward playing Cruisers like Radar Cruisers (Atlanta, Baltimore, Cleveland, Des Memes, etc) and Destroyers were the most dangerous jobs in a match.  The Skill Rebork just made it that much more dangerous.  The more forward you play, the riskier it is.  Now more than ever.

 

Even in the old system you can sit back and pummel what the DDs and Radar Cruisers spotted.  The difference then was we didn't have Dead Eye back then improving the accuracy of Battleships, especially the ones with bad accuracy, to make it even more dangerous.

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5 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Even in the old system you can sit back and pummel what the DDs and Radar Cruisers spotted.  The difference then was we didn't have Dead Eye back then improving the accuracy of Battleships, especially the ones with bad accuracy, to make it even more dangerous.

Plus, once you spend 4 pts on that skill, you are going to do everything you can to make it work. The psychological effect is at least as big as the actual accuracy buff to how MOST players are playing.

Similar to the Swift in Silence skill. Once you spend those 4 pts you will try even harder to not get seen (never fire those guns) so you keep that 5% (less than 2kts on a 36kt ship) extra speed.

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2 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

The accuracy nerf hit everyone but the Germans hard.

What the heck was WG thinking? Was there anyone there who really thought "Hmm secondary builds sure are overperforming..."

Yes there was someone who thought that. It was WG. It was more along these lines however:

'Our glorious fantasy soviet navy is getting owned when bow tanking by secondary themed ships...'

French and German ships are so difficult to citadel at close range its essentially impossible. This is why these were the only ships that could push against 50mm+ bow plate tanking ships. They could show some side to get secondaries on target and the secondaries provided EFFECTIVE single target damage by their accuracy (manual 2ndaries) and MELT the bow tanking ship with them since their main guns would not be able to do squat. 

WG's solution is hilariously brilliant: Reduce the manual 2ndary accuracy into useless garbage but increase the range and let the 2ndaries fire in both directions. That way they could claim the secondaries were doing more damage overall and thus 'balanz' ..and deny any soviet bias inclinations as to why of this decision. 

 

When you see a ship like a shikishima or T10 german BB with full secondary build... firing their secondaries at a DD that is 9km away and watch it get to within 2km of the BB without taking much damage from secondaries..... something that in the old system would see said DD dead before it even crossed the 7km distance line.... you see how badly messed up the system is now. 

Yet, see same BBs walk into secondary range of several red cruisers or BBs and secondaries firing in both directions, random ineffective damage just adding up and ending up higher than what the old secondaries would've achieved.... and voila! SPREADSHEET PROOF WG WAS RIGHT! Secondaries ARE BETTER NOW. 

 

Hence the intention behind the change was to protect bow tanking soviet ships so they can gloriously push through with little opposition and make secondaries overall only add up the damage IF they get into close range....where said bow tanking soviet ships can use all their bias advantages to rack up the glory now that there is little to oppose them. 

....but they did not take into account, because they obviously do not play their own game, that soviet ships can not push decisively on their own. Their main guns still have a ~30s reload and a cluster of cruisers/dds and bbs at close range cannot be dealt with via main guns like that. This is why french and german BBs would be the ones supporting the soviet BB and using their once effective manual secondaries to lay down intense rapid fire. 

Now that the secondaries are useless the french and german BBs are now sitting in the back waiting for glorious fantasy soviet navy to get on with it.

 

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3 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

You are somehow blaming CVs for the secondary nerf?

A prime example of CV derangement syndrome.

CVs had (before the rework) the best secondaries in the game...

Now. Not so much.

So I would conclude blame them for the universal nerf...

 

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15 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

CVs had (before the rework) the best secondaries in the game...

Now. Not so much.

So I would conclude blame them for the universal nerf...

 

I'm 100% positive Cruisers, Battleships, etc. would love it if a CV tried to get in secondaries range.

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10 hours ago, _WaveRider_ said:

If not for the IFHE change the French BBs would still be very good secondary ships. For me, I look at the secondary range element, but keep them at starting fires more than doing damage (a hybrid if you will).

I do the same with my MN BBs.  I have the KM BBs and the USN premiums as pure secondaries.  I use the MN BBs just to start fires.  I don't have Shika, but I really have no IJN BBs set up for anything secondary.

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I'm 100% positive Cruisers, Battleships, etc. would love it if a CV tried to get in secondaries range.

I wished for that also, however... No self respecting CV cpt would do such crazy suicide tactic (well at least by his lonesome, No... In a DIV it did happened for the lulz).

We would crucify the tactic in the realm of public opinion :Smile_smile:. The secondary spec CV was very powerful when implemented correctly...

You would have Secondary DMG out producing plane DMG... Which made CVs OP... You can only sink a Secondary spec CV when it was beyond secondary range...

Anything within the range... Death... Awaited you... If you had a stop watch... You can time how long it took to sink you...

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4 hours ago, AdmiralPiett said:

French secondary builds are trash. Little direct damage and they don't hit anything. I run a secondary build on Amagi and Kii in a desperate attempt to stave off boredom, and they can be fun but also the accuracy nerf hit them hard.

Yeah, Amagi (or Nagato) were nasty on DDs and CLs, (and perma-lit BBs) Mass-level accuracy with kerosene-soaked shells, even if you could only get 7.6km range.

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So to some extent, cruisers not having secondary build capability is not that big a deal because even real BBs (as opposed to the BBs getting to pretend to be cruisers) with killer secondaries don't benefit that much.

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The biggest problem is the nerf on the manual secondary accuracy. All the secondary builds other than german dealt a amount of damage to destroyers making the build for close cap assists.. now the secondary shells don't even land anywhere near dds, let alone nose-in cruisers. And what use are low pen scondaries against BBs anyway? to start fires? (used to run non-IFHE secondary Alsace for some arsonist memes, but now .. not enough secondary hits to cause fires).  I used to get a close quarters expert in every game I played a secodnary build. Now I am barely getting one.  FIX THIS WG

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17 hours ago, reza577 said:

Is anyone from WG going to address these? 

 

I want to build my French and shikishima ships in secondary builds... But with the nerf to secondary they never hit anything... 

The problem is, these particular builds get slammed even HARDER due to the secondaries accuracy nerf because they do NOT have "improved dispersion". In say, Republique for example, your secondaries aren't hitting ANYTHING reliably at 12.6km, because your max dispersion is 369m and that's FULL secondaries build. It's SO bad. Same problem with Shikishima. Sure, she's got greatly enhanced pen on her secondaries, but the dispersion is awful at 11.6km, so you're not hitting anything.

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6 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

The more forward you play, the riskier it is.  Now more than ever.

This statement is SO SO SO true, right now. Every time I push, I end up eating so much more damage than if I'm playing further back....

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6 hours ago, Pugilistic said:

But why?????

Because SKILL BUILD DIVERSITY? You know, the thing Wargaming was touting they want to improve?!

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4 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

I wished for that also, however... No self respecting CV cpt would do such crazy suicide tactic (well at least by his lonesome, No... In a DIV it did happened for the lulz).

We would crucify the tactic in the realm of public opinion :Smile_smile:. The secondary spec CV was very powerful when implemented correctly...

You would have Secondary DMG out producing plane DMG... Which made CVs OP... You can only sink a Secondary spec CV when it was beyond secondary range...

Anything within the range... Death... Awaited you... If you had a stop watch... You can time how long it took to sink you...

Except for a German CV, nobody cares. CV secondary guns may be more accurate than secondaries found on other ship types, but it's still pretty pointless. You're making them better at the cost of making the airwing less functional. Most CV's don't bring enough secondary guns to even make it worth while. Normally 10 barrels or less, and in most cases they're not even good secondary guns to start with.

With a German CV, you've got as many as 20 barrels to a side, with German pen rules. On the rare occasions it works, it's funny. You sacrifice a lot for a secondary CV build, and you'll get better results out of the aircraft over the whole match than you will from the secondaries in the last 5 minutes of a match.

In no case, do you have the armor or concealment to actually make planned use of it.

In all cases, a secondary spec CV is a waste of a CV, and far from powerful. You'll spend the whole match trying to get somewhere to get your guns into play that you won't just die, where a normal CV build can produce over the length of the whole match.

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19 hours ago, Pugilistic said:

But why?????

 

12 hours ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Because SKILL BUILD DIVERSITY? You know, the thing Wargaming was touting they want to improve?!

Sailor_Moon gets it, plus some of us are just naturally more aggressive players in general. I am a huge fan of brawling and run most of my IJN BBs, ALL of my French BBs, and even many of my American and Russian BBs with secondary builds, plus HMS Nelson for operation Narai and HMS Warspite for the other ops. I am very displeased by WG's refusal to consider any other ships than German BBs as secondary build ships, especially when the stated goal of the rework was to allow any ship line to be played with skill builds that aren't geared towards that line's gimmicks.  The only real 'success story' of that was the dead-eye skill letting almost anyone attempt to play as a backline sniper, which the game needed like the it needed the darn plague. 

As for the nonsense someone mentioned about CV secondary builds being a reason, trust me, I've tried a few and other than GZ (don't have many other German CVs yet, not a priority line for me), they are not at all worth it, nor are they at all effective. I even gave Kaga's 200mm's a fair shot, they are not worth the trouble. I'd like to know what fabulous substance some people have been smoking, it seems to be some powerful stuff.

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On 2/25/2021 at 2:01 AM, reza577 said:

Is anyone from WG going to address these? 

 

I want to build my French and shikishima ships in secondary builds... But with the nerf to secondary they never hit anything... 

Not to fear, WG stated their intent with the rework was not for secondaries to be any "less effective".  I am sure there will be a new shiny premium ship you can buy that has secondaries which are "more effective".

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