Jump to content
You need to play a total of 20 battles to post in this section.
Sabot_100

"Standard" heavy cruiser build now

24 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,619
[CVA16]
Members
7,006 posts
21,490 battles

I realize there are always options for playstyles and particular ships, but what would be the standard heavy cruiser build post rework?

What skills are the biggest traps?  (like taking Heavy HE/SAP on anything but a DD gunned cruiser)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
171
[LOIN]
Supertester
861 posts
9 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

I realize there are always options for playstyles and particular ships, but what would be the standard heavy cruiser build post rework?

What skills are the biggest traps?  (like taking Heavy HE/SAP on anything but a DD gunned cruiser)

You're referring to the heavy cruisers that are armed with anything ranging from 180-234 mm right?

9 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

 

9 minutes ago, Sabot_100 said:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
383
[WOLF1]
Members
1,153 posts
2,229 battles
1,619
[CVA16]
Members
7,006 posts
21,490 battles
1 minute ago, Starfleet1701 said:

You're referring to the heavy cruisers that are armed with anything ranging from 180-234 mm right?

Correct. As opposed to the lights like Dallas, Cleveland, Minotaur, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,619
[CVA16]
Members
7,006 posts
21,490 battles
5 minutes ago, Boomer625 said:

just what I would take personally from my experimenting during the free skill reset period

Your first build takes IFA and PT. I'm a PT enthusiast so would probably drop IFA for another 1 pt skill. Maybe even the almost worthless Glue the Gears.

Am looking for what would be considered "Standard" though. As opposed to something like the Lighthouse build for Des M.

Edited by Sabot_100

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
171
[LOIN]
Supertester
861 posts

I would definitely run Concealment Expert, the skill that increases fire chance. The turret traverse skill, but it really depends on the cruiser you're taking though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,008
[WOLFC]
Members
3,659 posts
12,487 battles
2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

I realize there are always options for playstyles and particular ships, but what would be the standard heavy cruiser build post rework?

Don’t you know? There are no more “standard” builds now. The skill rework has given players all these amazing and useful choices! :Smile_sceptic:

But seriously, here’s my take:

Basic ten point build: Gun Feeder, Priority Target, Adrenaline Rush, Concealment Expert. Gun Feeder is a very strong skill on most heavy cruisers, as being able to fire the right ammo at the right time can be the difference between a multiple citadel salvo and a single pen plus a bunch of bounces as a target takes a turn. With PT now a 2pt skill, it’s my first skill of choice on most cruisers with >/= 10s reload. The rest are classic cruiser staples from pre-0.10.0.

After that, there are a few options:

1) If the ship has a radar or repair party, I’ll usually grab Superintendent at 13pts.

2) I usually grab Grease the Gears at 14pts. This is mostly personal preference in the case of many ships, but I like being able to keep my guns on target while maneuvering, and at 1 pt it’s cheap.

The remaining 7 points aren’t as important, but when testing last update I found both AA skills to be effective, and I also found Heavy AP Shells to be a decent value at 3 points (although keep in mind it does not apply to Tallinn’s 180mm guns, despite her being part of the Soviet “heavy” cruiser branch). For ships that have spotter planes and do a lot of long range gunnery and kiting (high tier German and Japanese cruisers, for example) or depend on their spotter plane to overcome their short gun range (UK CAs), Eye in the Sky is a decent choice. The shorter cooldown allows the plane to be up when you really need it and is useful if you find yourself playing near your max gun range often. Consumable Enhancements is also a decent choice for 10% extra radar duration for 2 pts.

2 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

What skills are the biggest traps?  (like taking Heavy HE/SAP on anything but a DD gunned cruiser)

IMO, half of the 4pt skills are garbage. Radio Location and AA gunner are decent, but Outnumbered and Top Grade Gunner are poorly designed and hard to get consistent use out of. IFHE should of course be avoided on all CAs except Tallinn (although I don’t run it personally).

For some reason WG recommends Pyrotechnician on CAs. It’s a terrible value (1% fire chance for two points) considering the base fire chance of most CAs. IMO Demolition Expert was an OK choice pre-rework (mostly if you didn’t need SI or had extra points), but now you get 1/2 the value for 2/3 the price. I’m not even sold on this skill for my CLs ATM.

Torpedo skills in general are questionable for cruisers, as most of the time your guns will be doing the work. There is an argument for their value on certain ships, like UK CLs, but most CAs will get little value from them and IMO you are better off investing in skills that will yield more reliable returns.

In regards to Heavy HE and SAP Shells: some have had success running dedicated “no conceal” builds on long range cruisers with this skill and the previously mentioned 4pt skills, but giving up 15% concealment is a lot in a meta where concealment is still one of your most important tools for survival.

 

Edited by Nevermore135
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,619
[CVA16]
Members
7,006 posts
21,490 battles
59 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Don’t you know? There are no more “standard” builds now. The skill rework has given players all these amazing and useful choices!

Part of the problem is many of those choices aren't near as useful as they first appear and others have a poison pill included that may or may not override any benefit the skill gives you. 

I like your thoughts on basic builds.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
383
[WOLF1]
Members
1,153 posts
2,229 battles
6 hours ago, Starfleet1701 said:

I would definitely run Concealment Expert, the skill that increases fire chance. The turret traverse skill, but it really depends on the cruiser you're taking though.

I doubt the pyrotech skill for fire chance is worth it.... only 1%. Plus you won’t be using HE much in a heavy cruiser usually 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,008
[WOLFC]
Members
3,659 posts
12,487 battles
3 hours ago, Boomer625 said:

I doubt the pyrotech skill for fire chance is worth it.... only 1%. Plus you won’t be using HE much in a heavy cruiser usually 

I agree with the former, but strongly disagree with the latter. Dynamic ammo choice is key for good CA play. Most cruisers should still be firing a lot of HE, especially at long range and against angled targets.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
971
Members
2,070 posts
12,897 battles

People joke about there being no build variety but there actually is to some extent.

This is what I use on graf spee altho the last time I played it I died from a broken rudder so considering dropping IFA for LS.

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PGSC506&modules=11111&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&skills=4573201&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

I think many people overlook the fact that in mid to low tiers TGG is a great skill for cruisers since their gun range is often not much more than their concealment and engagement ranges are much shorter.

This is what I'm currently using on zao, not sure what I'll spend the remaining points on.

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PJSC034&modules=11111&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&skills=4278809&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

Here's a meme build for atago.

https://wowsft.com/ship?index=PJSC038&modules=11111&upgrades=000000&commander=PCW001&skills=4290585&ar=100&consumables=1111&pos=0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[OFCS]
Beta Testers
160 posts
11,336 battles

I have a similar build in my Graff Spee but I have LS on tier 1 and on 2 I moved the AA over to PT. I need to know when I’m being aimed at and need to take evasive action. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,619
[CVA16]
Members
7,006 posts
21,490 battles
On 3/5/2021 at 10:59 AM, remington79 said:

I have a similar build in my Graff Spee but I have LS on tier 1 and on 2 I moved the AA over to PT. I need to know when I’m being aimed at and need to take evasive action. 

Some players are comfortable without PT (not me). You can be constantly WASDing but with slow turrets (most CAs, especially Graf Spee)  it can be tough to keep guns on target. To know when you NEED to go dark (PT counter says 5) or change your angle (somebody is shooting at you and it isn't the guy you are angled against). 

Lots of great info from that PT number. Don't always take it a 3 pts however.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48
[GNOME]
[GNOME]
Beta Testers
164 posts
7,995 battles

I've got concealment expert on my Hipper (moving him up the line) and I'm really not sure what to take next.  Top grade gunner?  AA Gunner?  Radio location?  I am very confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24
[OFCS]
Beta Testers
160 posts
11,336 battles
On 3/7/2021 at 1:29 PM, Sabot_100 said:

Some players are comfortable without PT (not me). You can be constantly WASDing but with slow turrets (most CAs, especially Graf Spee)  it can be tough to keep guns on target. To know when you NEED to go dark (PT counter says 5) or change your angle (somebody is shooting at you and it isn't the guy you are angled against). 

Lots of great info from that PT number. Don't always take it a 3 pts however.

Grease the Gears really makes a noticeable improvement on the Graff Spee. It’s definitely worth the point. 
 

CankedTank I’ve been taking Top Grade Gunner for the reload boost that doesn’t depend on being damaged. I don’t bother getting any AA skills. When I use DFAA I only get so much improvement. On some ships I’ve switched it out for hydro.  Back in the day DFAA made a noticeable improvement. I’ve been getting more games without CVs now so on those games those skill points would be wasted.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61
[5D7]
Members
208 posts
9,084 battles
On 2/25/2021 at 12:22 AM, Nevermore135 said:

Don’t you know? There are no more “standard” builds now. The skill rework has given players all these amazing and useful choices! :Smile_sceptic:

But seriously, here’s my take:

Basic ten point build: Gun Feeder, Priority Target, Adrenaline Rush, Concealment Expert. Gun Feeder is a very strong skill on most heavy cruisers, as being able to fire the right ammo at the right time can be the difference between a multiple citadel salvo and a single pen plus a bunch of bounces as a target takes a turn. With PT now a 2pt skill, it’s my first skill of choice on most cruisers with >/= 10s reload. The rest are classic cruiser staples from pre-0.10.0.

After that, there are a few options:

1) If the ship has a radar or repair party, I’ll usually grab Superintendent at 13pts.

2) I usually grab Grease the Gears at 14pts. This is mostly personal preference in the case of many ships, but I like being able to keep my guns on target while maneuvering, and at 1 pt it’s cheap.

The remaining 7 points aren’t as important, but when testing last update I found both AA skills to be effective, and I also found Heavy AP Shells to be a decent value at 3 points (although keep in mind it does not apply to Tallinn’s 180mm guns, despite her being part of the Soviet “heavy” cruiser branch). For ships that have spotter planes and do a lot of long range gunnery and kiting (high tier German and Japanese cruisers, for example) or depend on their spotter plane to overcome their short gun range (UK CAs), Eye in the Sky is a decent choice. The shorter cooldown allows the plane to be up when you really need it and is useful if you find yourself playing near your max gun range often. Consumable Enhancements is also a decent choice for 10% extra radar duration for 2 pts.

IMO, half of the 4pt skills are garbage. Radio Location and AA gunner are decent, but Outnumbered and Top Grade Gunner are poorly designed and hard to get consistent use out of. IFHE should of course be avoided on all CAs except Tallinn (although I don’t run it personally).

For some reason WG recommends Pyrotechnician on CAs. It’s a terrible value (1% fire chance for two points) considering the base fire chance of most CAs. IMO Demolition Expert was an OK choice pre-rework (mostly if you didn’t need SI or had extra points), but now you get 1/2 the value for 2/3 the price. I’m not even sold on this skill for my CLs ATM.

Torpedo skills in general are questionable for cruisers, as most of the time your guns will be doing the work. There is an argument for their value on certain ships, like UK CLs, but most CAs will get little value from them and IMO you are better off investing in skills that will yield more reliable returns.

In regards to Heavy HE and SAP Shells: some have had success running dedicated “no conceal” builds on long range cruisers with this skill and the previously mentioned 4pt skills, but giving up 15% concealment is a lot in a meta where concealment is still one of your most important tools for survival.

 

Nice points you make skipp(1 & 2 are key), however i have some arguments favoring torpedo skills and TGG. Torp skills for Zao are a blast you can get fishes that do up to 27k base dmg, sail fast and reload reasonably fast, I do account for torping with a Zao being a task not for the easily scared or light hearted. You can also make a lot from Mino torp suite with said skills. TGG is awesome for Petro and and Nevsky, both for bulling one for BBs and the other for DDs. 

Most definitely agree that pyro is a waste, i rather use AA or priotgt(its a tactical info adv).

Never been an adrenaline rush advocate outside of BB domain, don't think that playing most cruisers with that HP trade in mind style is useful. Maybe CB types can profit from it.

Eye in the Sky, a niche of the Hindy if you ask me. Zao is better of with a fighter and hydro(has such a bad AA that the consumable is a waste) and RN uses such a floaty gunnery style that anything beyond stock range(not being an absolutely oblivious BB or CV sitting) is a waste of time.

But all in all at high tier(TX) the main thing is 1st level incoming fire alert + grease the gears(unless you are a mino), 2nd level anything that fits your style but pyro as it is expensive to the yielded benefit, 3rd level is superintendent and this is not subject to discussion, its just too good a pick. Finally at 4th level is definitely concealment expert, also a must for cruisers. from there on the builds is very specific for each ship and playstyle. I have all the torp skills in my Zao, but i have player over 1k games with that babe. On the other hand I took exper AA and AA gunner in my Nevsky as with the good base AA i can ditch the AA consumable in favor of the hydro without relinquishing being able to defend myself from CVs effectively. Clearly there is a personal component to what is chosen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,869 posts
2,177 battles
On 2/25/2021 at 4:34 AM, Rouxi said:

graf spee altho the last time I played it I died from a broken rudder

historically accurate :Smile_trollface:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61
[5D7]
Members
208 posts
9,084 battles
1 hour ago, black_hull4 said:

historically accurate :Smile_trollface:

That would be Bismarck Skipp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,008
[WOLFC]
Members
3,659 posts
12,487 battles
18 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Never been an adrenaline rush advocate outside of BB domain, don't think that playing most cruisers with that HP trade in mind style is useful. Maybe CB types can profit from it.

It has nothing to do with any “style” of play. You should never try to take damage in a cruiser - your HP is too valuable and you are the most fragile class in the game. However, you will take damage every match (unless you play extremely passively), and the DPM boost adds up over time. The skill lets you leverage something that is going to happen and improve the primary strength of the class. The only class adrenaline rush isn’t a must on is DDs, because there are other valuable options and so much of DD play revolves around utilizing your concealment to avoid damage. Not to say it’s not valuable, but just less important and not as valuable for many builds. I cannot think of a single BB or cruiser ship/build that doesn’t benefit from AR - there’s a reason WG made AR (as well as PT) more expensive with the rework. I also run it on most of my BBs as my standard first 3 pt skill, since SI is gone and Basics of Survivability has always been of questionable value for 3 pts, particularly if you are also running Fire Prevention Expert.

18 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Eye in the Sky, a niche of the Hindy if you ask me. Zao is better of with a fighter and hydro(has such a bad AA that the consumable is a waste) and RN uses such a floaty gunnery style that anything beyond stock range(not being an absolutely oblivious BB or CV sitting) is a waste of time.

Any ship that tends to kite gets a lot of utility out of the skill by expanding the amount of time they can stay engaged during such maneuvers. This is especially true for such ships with short gun range (like IJN CAs). The shorter cooldown means you can go dark, reposition, and repeat the process sooner, and the drawback it negligible since in most cases you don’t utilize the full duration of the spotter plane anyways. In regards to UK CAs, I find myself frustrated by the short gun range all the time and find the spotter plane a godsend. Keeping the range open is especially important because while the heals make you somewhat tanky, the armor and handling of the line is lackluster in general. I have no problem landing shots at range, but I also have a lot of experience with USN cruisers.

18 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

incoming fire alert

I’ve never found this skill useful, personally. Priority target and good situational awareness serve just fine, and if you lack the latter IFA typically won’t save you anyways.

Edited by Nevermore135

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61
[5D7]
Members
208 posts
9,084 battles
19 hours ago, Nevermore135 said:

It has nothing to do with any “style” of play. You should never try to take damage in a cruiser - your HP is too valuable and you are the most fragile class in the game. However, you will take damage every match (unless you play extremely passively), and the DPM boost adds up over time. The skill lets you leverage something that is going to happen and improve the primary strength of the class. The only class adrenaline rush isn’t a must on is DDs, because there are other valuable options and so much of DD play revolves around utilizing your concealment to avoid damage. Not to say it’s not valuable, but just less important and not as valuable for many builds. I cannot think of a single BB or cruiser ship/build that doesn’t benefit from AR - there’s a reason WG made AR (as well as PT) more expensive with the rework. I also run it on most of my BBs as my standard first 3 pt skill, since SI is gone and Basics of Survivability has always been of questionable value for 3 pts, particularly if you are also running Fire Prevention Expert.

Any ship that tends to kite gets a lot of utility out of the skill by expanding the amount of time they can stay engaged during such maneuvers. This is especially true for such ships with short gun range (like IJN CAs). The shorter cooldown means you can go dark, reposition, and repeat the process sooner, and the drawback it negligible since in most cases you don’t utilize the full duration of the spotter plane anyways. In regards to UK CAs, I find myself frustrated by the short gun range all the time and find the spotter plane a godsend. Keeping the range open is especially important because while the heals make you somewhat tanky, the armor and handling of the line is lackluster in general. I have no problem landing shots at range, but I also have a lot of experience with USN cruisers.

I’ve never found this skill useful, personally. Priority target and good situational awareness serve just fine, and if you lack the latter IFA typically won’t save you anyways.

Has all to do with playstyle mate, I will definitely take damage no matter the class, the difference is when and how much. Those two factors determine how much of a buff you get from the skill in question.

In any case, I was referring mostly to TX cruisers which are the ones I like to play. Also noted you don't have any IJN, USN or RN TXs. Trust me or take the time to reach and you will see that Zao(@1150 battles my stats on the ship are considerably truthful and reduced in randomness) has about nothing beyond the national flag with Mogami or Tallin with Nevsky. 

For incoming fire alert, it is precisely a skill for those that play actively not perma hiding nor firing from behind hard cover. It is useful to know when to hit WASD hacks or not lose attention to do so, a useful reminder and properly timed one on get to maneuver to survive. Used to be first tier skill, got bumped up to two(that by the logic you showcased means WG has deemed it more useful that thought of earlier). How they decide that exactly, don't know don't have access to the level of detail on stats they have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,008
[WOLFC]
Members
3,659 posts
12,487 battles
51 minutes ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Has all to do with playstyle mate, I will definitely take damage no matter the class, the difference is when and how much. Those two factors determine how much of a buff you get from the skill in question.

Care to elaborate? You get a DPM buff based regardless, how is that not valuable. Unless you don’t take any damage at all, the skill is incredibly useful.

51 minutes ago, IgnisFatuus said:

In any case, I was referring mostly to TX cruisers which are the ones I like to play. Also noted you don't have any IJN, USN or RN TXs. Trust me or take the time to reach and you will see that Zao(@1150 battles my stats on the ship are considerably truthful and reduced in randomness) has about nothing beyond the national flag with Mogami or Tallin with Nevsky. 

Two things:

1) None of this changes the fact that kiting ships (especially with short ranges) benefit from the skill. I have lots of experience with those and the new spotter plane skill is very useful.

2) Zao has higher shell velocity and better ballistics than preceding 203mm-armed cruisers, as well as having the line characteristic of best-in-class (DD-level) dispersion). If you can’t hit ships at max range that’s on you. 203mm-armed IJN ships have laser accuracy, and hitting targets at max range is easy. I also purposely take my time in grinds and play across multiple lines to get a few for them, rather than just rushing up lines to high tier. Regarding UK CAs, I never said anything about tier X play - you are the one that is fixated on it. 

3) I have Worchester (ground her twice, actually), Salem, and am approximately 2/3 of the way through Buffalo (she’s surprisingly solid in Ranked), so I know how to aim floaty shells at range. I don’t play many tier Xs outside of my favorites in Randoms because I like to progress my grinds. None of that changes the fact that I have experience with the ships earlier in the tree, and know how they handle. Your fixation on tier X doesn’t really make sense.

Are you actually going to make logical arguments against my points or just keep repeating how many Zao games you’ve played?

IFA is, IMO, a waste of a point. Take PT instead, even at two points. If you know who is targeting you and where your enemies are, it’s a waste of a valuable point. Even more so because if you are in the situation where it is most valuable (I.e targeted by many enemies and not situationally aware) it doesn’t tell you who took the shot and thus how to dodge.

Edited by Nevermore135

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61
[5D7]
Members
208 posts
9,084 battles
5 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

Care to elaborate? You get a DPM buff based regardless, how is that not valuable. Unless you don’t take any damage at all, the skill is incredibly useful.

Two things:

1) None of this changes the fact that kiting ships with short ranges benefit from the skill.

2) Zao has higher shell velocity and better ballistics than preceding 203mm-armed cruisers, as well as having the line characteristic of best-in-class (DD-level) dispersion). If you can’t hit ships at max range that’s on you. 203mm-armed IJN ships have laser accuracy, and hitting targets at max range is easy. I also purposely take my time in grinds and play across multiple lines to get a few for them, rather than just rushing up lines to high tier. Regarding UK CAs, I never said anything about tier X play - you are the one that is fixated on it. 

3) I have Worchester (ground her twice, actually), Salem, and am approximately 2/3 of the way through Buffalo (she’s surprisingly solid in Ranked), so I know how to aim floaty shells at range. I don’t play many tier Xs outside of my favorites in Randoms because I like to progress my grinds. None of that changes the fact that I have experience with the ships earlier in the tree, and know how they handle. Your fixation on tier X doesn’t really make sense.

Are you actually going to make logical arguments against my points or just keep repeating how many Zao games you’ve played?

I clearly said I referred to TX mostly, so you had means to understand the differences in approach. Also, no fixation I just like to talk about what I play and consider to understand the most, not gonna talk about T5, I seldom play it. Maybe I do have a fixation on talking about matters I have reasonable background experience. Thing here is I made clear I'm talking about ships I have played with, throughout different WoWs eras. So if you want to take things personal I cant do much about it. However you can read and acquire some honest and reasonable insights. Still, just a mater of opinion and the way each engages the game. We lack the data to reach conclusive answers.

For AR, when and how much(math problem here). If you are a team player in a BB(yes, i'm talking to you edge rider BB skippers) you'll take DMG in place of other mates not so heavily armored or HP pooled. Also you can be seen from afar and will get shot at earlier on. So, without going into useless detailing, you will start to see benefit from the skill(I think its among the most BB skills in game) and quite a lot(bear in mind that for 50% loss of HP you get a 10% fire rate increase). Now in the case of a cruiser you'll start by supporting from a relative safe distance(again, this does not mean standoff range) to get more intimate as battle develops. Remember this is a cruisers in general, then there is a case by case choice. So you'll see the same proportion of benefit as far as fire rate but the time that being active should be considerably shorter. Which leads to lower benefit yielded.

Now, Zao again. Its a very different cruiser from earlier examples of IJN, has excellent guns and ballistics, stealth, you can wiki read it. Why the fighter over the spotter mostly, EZ CVs. This is for randoms, in the current ranked season CVs have not been a mainstay and therefore other builds get to be more useful. The ship has about no AA at all and has a huge turning circle, akin to BBs or BCs, you wish it had the Atago speed and turning circle, but that is not the case. So you have a real hard time with CVs and halfway decent CV operators know so and also know the threat you if left unattended. As a stalker and open waters ship you are, it is very common you are sailing relatively alone and you become easy prey for a CV. Its a matter more of current meta than anything to do with being able to hit something downrange. I said Eye in the Sky being the prime user due to ballistics, base range, rate of fire and basic trade off to take. It is in my opinion the ship in class most that can profit the most from it. USN and RN CAs and CLs shells are slow at muzzle and floaty, so anything beyond sitting behemoths at range is quite a waste of time. SN are not very accurate at long range and already have really really long ranges to begin with. So basically, if there were no CV biased meta(or we were more of a team playing well coordinated community) the spotter is the go to choice, but there are ships that are in dire need of that little fighter squad.

3- Nice, hoping to get Worcester for shipyard diversity and understanding of as many cruisers as possible. Currently at Seattle and cant say Ill write home about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,008
[WOLFC]
Members
3,659 posts
12,487 battles
1 hour ago, IgnisFatuus said:

So if you want to take things personal I cant do much about it. However you can read and acquire some honest and reasonable insights. Still, just a mater of opinion and the way each engages the game. We lack the data to reach conclusive answers.

 

2 hours ago, IgnisFatuus said:

In any case, I was referring mostly to TX cruisers which are the ones I like to play. Also noted you don't have any IJN, USN or RN TXs. Trust me or take the time to reach and you will see that Zao(@1150 battles my stats on the ship are considerably truthful and reduced in randomness) has about nothing beyond the national flag with Mogami or Tallin with Nevsky. 

^didn’t make things personal. But I’d rather just drop this and move on.

1 hour ago, IgnisFatuus said:

For AR, when and how much(math problem here). If you are a team player in a BB(yes, i'm talking to you edge rider BB skippers) you'll take DMG in place of other mates not so heavily armored or HP pooled. Also you can be seen from afar and will get shot at earlier on. So, without going into useless detailing, you will start to see benefit from the skill(I think its among the most BB skills in game) and quite a lot(bear in mind that for 50% loss of HP you get a 10% fire rate increase). Now in the case of a cruiser you'll start by supporting from a relative safe distance(again, this does not mean standoff range) to get more intimate as battle develops. Remember this is a cruisers in general, then there is a case by case choice. So you'll see the same proportion of benefit as far as fire rate but the time that being active should be considerably shorter. Which leads to lower benefit yielded.

Thank you for the explanation. However, we are going to have to agree to disagree. I would argue that cruisers in general are the class that get the most benefit from the skill, as most cruisers (with a few exceptions) should be leveraging their DPM throughout the entirety of the match, either for continuous withering fire or burst damage against vulnerable targets. DPM is the general advantage of the class, after all. You should be taking chip damage throughout the course of the match (since cruisers are typically priority targets) especially if you supporting your team vs. back line farming, so I don’t buy the argument that it will be inactive for a considerably shorter period of time or that BBs get more out of the skill (it’s based on %HP loss, after all). AR is still the most generally useful and valuable skill at tier 3, with the possible exception of SI for ships with heals and radar, but should definitely be taken in the vast majority of these cases. However, if you primarily play Zao/IJN cruisers in the manner you described, I can understand why you may have this perception. The majority of the time AR is much more valuable than any other use of 3 points.

1 hour ago, IgnisFatuus said:

Now, Zao again. Its a very different cruiser from earlier examples of IJN, has excellent guns and ballistics, stealth, you can wiki read it. Why the fighter over the spotter mostly, EZ CVs. This is for randoms, in the current ranked season CVs have not been a mainstay and therefore other builds get to be more useful. The ship has about no AA at all and has a huge turning circle, akin to BBs or BCs, you wish it had the Atago speed and turning circle, but that is not the case. So you have a real hard time with CVs and halfway decent CV operators know so and also know the threat you if left unattended. As a stalker and open waters ship you are, it is very common you are sailing relatively alone and you become easy prey for a CV. Its a matter more of current meta than anything to do with being able to hit something downrange.

This comes down to a difference in playstyle, I suppose. When I am placed into a CV match in a cruiser with poor AA I adapt my playstyle appropriately, notably my positioning, to make myself a less attractive target for the CV. I shift towards the style of play you described as the match progresses and I get a better idea of where the CV is focusing and he begins to take losses due to attrition. In my experience the catapult fighter is easily defeated or worked around by a competent CV player, so the consumable’s usefulness is pretty limited. I certainly use it when I got it, but in the vast majority of cases any other consumable offered in the slot will give more general utility.

1 hour ago, IgnisFatuus said:

USN and RN CAs and CLs shells are slow at muzzle and floaty, so anything beyond sitting behemoths at range is quite a waste of time. SN are not very accurate at long range and already have really really long ranges to begin with. So basically, if there were no CV biased meta(or we were more of a team playing well coordinated community) the spotter is the go to choice, but there are ships that are in dire need of that little fighter squad.

USN and Soviet cruisers (I’m assuming that’s what you mean by SN) should be taking radar over aircraft 99% of the time, and UK CLs should run smoke or radar, so it’s kind of a moot point. Regardless, all the UK CAs I’ve played have painfully short gun ranges, especially when their armor is taken into account. The spotter plane is a huge boon for these ships, and landing shells at long range with UK and USN shell arcs is very possible with practice and good prediction. I’ve run range mod on Salem in Ranked quite some time ago and landing shots at 18km isn’t too difficult against cruisers and battleships, and range mod on Buffalo is also a solid choice (and I plan on switching back from Reload for Randoms when I’m finished in Ranked). There’s also something about a rain of HE shells that, even if they miss, discourages battleships and cruisers from advancing. Even if your accuracy is mediocre at those ranges, one of the biggest advantages of having the spotter plane is the flexibility it gives you. You can keep the engagement going longer, doing more damage or even simply keeping the red teams focus on you as you open the range to give yourself more time to avoid shots. The other use of the spotter plane for cruisers with high-arcing, floating shells is to provide view over islands, so it can be very handy when tucked in behind an island by allowing you to accurately predict your targets motion. The reason Eye in Sky is such a good skill if you find yourself using the spotter is because the vast majority of the time you don’t utilize the full duration of the consumable anyways (you kite out of gun range, you need to go dark because there’s too much focus fire coming your way, the idiot chasing you dies to focus fire, or the targets you are focusing from behind your cover die or move out of range). Being able to pop the plane more often, when you really need it, is extremely valuable.

1 hour ago, IgnisFatuus said:

3- Nice, hoping to get Worcester for shipyard diversity and understanding of as many cruisers as possible. Currently at Seattle and cant say Ill write home about it.

Seattle isn’t nearly as bad as she’s made out to be. My first time grinding her was during the tier IX-X Arms Race Ranked season, and I had good results with her playing close to objectives, supporting our DDs, and leveraging her consumables for all they were worth. IMO, her biggest flaw is the poor firing angles combined with the poor turret traverse relative to Cleveland. Either one wouldn’t be much of an issue on their own, but the combination of the two means the ship is serviceable, but just feels awkward. Doesn’t help that she follows Cleveland, which tier-for-tier might be the best CL in the game.

And yes, I can understand playing through as many lines as possible to try to get a better understanding of the game as a whole, even if you aren’t particularly interested in the ships themselves. That’s the main reason I tend to grind in a broad manner, playing most lines until at least the mid tiers, where the characteristics of the line start to firm up. This has served me well in high tier matches, because I have a good idea of what to expect from any ship I face, regardless of nation, class, or tier.

Edited by Nevermore135

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
61
[5D7]
Members
208 posts
9,084 battles

"^didn’t make things personal. But I’d rather just drop this and move on.", clearly I did not convey the message the way I wanted to or expected.

I just came to think while pondering on this matter that at TX the differences between ships become even greater.

I have Mino, i like it, has a good suite of consumables. its maneuverable excellent DD hunter and that shooting over cover trait is golden as you have noticed RN clearly has no interest in crew survibability(legend says, I don't know for sure that RAF bombers did not have chutes for everyone in crew). But anything that is not absolutely disregarding you at max range, even when it is not extended by any means, can force you to miss a lot. Not that you are not going to land a shot, but most will be off. Another one is the super good stealth range, can work as a solid spotter when DDs are not available.

Anyway, in the end all of them provide an advantage, there is no "wrong" choice per se but choices that adjust more closely to a players style. In particular for cruisers the role they have to play in each battle can cover so many things, form the discrete scouting to the courageous(?) tanking. The Swiss Army knife of the seas so to speak. So taste and personal opinion come to play when we fine tune the skills available. Certainly there are the core skills like concealment expert that are simply a must, the benefit is maxime. So good that not only all DDs and cruisers benefit from it but is a solid choice for some BBs(RN laughs in nonsensical camo rates).

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×