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Seawolf148

penetration

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My mind is failing, as age will do that :) But will a HE shell that can penetrate up to 32mm, penetrate  32mm of armour?

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23 hours ago, Seawolf148 said:

But will a HE shell that can penetrate up to 32mm, penetrate  32mm of armour?

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.


The Wiki page use for this Info needs the reflect changes, it shows up later in the thread.

Edited by Navalpride33
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The HE pen you see in port is the plating that will be penned.

4 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.

This is false. HE shell penetration does not depend on any of these characteristics. An HE shell fired from 3km has the exact same penetration as one fired from 15km. It’s a simple check if the shell’s listed penetration meets or exceeds the thickness of the plating it strikes.

Edited by Nevermore135
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11 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.

Huh? pretty sure you know that's not how HE works Naval.

19 minutes ago, Seawolf148 said:

My mind is failing, as age will do that :) But will a HE shell that can penetrate up to 32mm, penetrate  32mm of armour?

Yes, that was just changed a couple patches back. The penetration number listed (or calculated) for an HE round is the amount of armor it will penetrate. All that matters is the caliber (and nationality), angle, range, etc are irrelevant for HE.

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13 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

....Yeah, by definition. The HE pen you see in port is the plating that will be penned.

This is false. HE shell penetration does not depend on any of these characteristics. And HE shell fired from 3km has the exact same penetration as one fired from 15km. It’s a simple check if the shell’s losted penetration meets or exceeds the thickness of the plating it strikes.

Disagree... Longer Ranges you get fires not pens (You can see in the "HIT" summery in game, how many were pens or other)... Not every  (say for example ) 152 gun caliber in the game have the same shell values...

Therefor, HE shells shatter, Rico, or Non-pen because when the reach the furthest target... Its doesn't have any velocity to Pen. 

I would also add those ships with 1/6 and IFHE

32 mm Tier 8 - 10 battleship bow/stern, tier 8 - 10 British and French battleships' casemate plating, Slava deck plating Heavy cruisers (203 mm)
German 128 - 150 mm guns (both main and secondary)
Most light cruisers (152 mm, 155 mm, 180 mm)
Japanese 100 mm guns
  • "Must light cruisers is not the same as ALL light cruisers"
Edited by Navalpride33
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Perhaps I needed to clarify. It's the 128mm HE shells on my GK. With IFHE it pens 32mm. So, it would pen the 32mm armour on the Jean Bart?

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3 minutes ago, Seawolf148 said:

Perhaps I needed to clarify. It's the 128mm HE shells on my GK. With IFHE it pens 32mm. So, it would pen the 32mm armour on the Jean Bart?

According to the notes...


  • The only secondary weapons that may benefit from IFHE are German 105 mm secondaries with 26 mm base penetration, however, they give up a lot of fire chance for the ability to penetrate up to and including 32 mm plating, which is most of the time not worth it
Edited by Navalpride33

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12 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

Disagree... Longer Ranges you get fires not pens (You can see in the "HIT" summery in game, how many were pens or other)... Not every  (say for example ) 152 gun caliber in the game have the same shell values...

Therefor, HE shells shatter, Rico, or Non-pen because when the reach the furthest target... Its doesn't have any velocity to Pen. 

I would also add those ships with 1/6 and IFHE

32 mm Tier 8 - 10 battleship bow/stern, tier 8 - 10 British and French battleships' casemate plating, Slava deck plating Heavy cruisers (203 mm)
German 128 - 150 mm guns (both main and secondary)
Most light cruisers (152 mm, 155 mm, 180 mm)
Japanese 100 mm guns

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

No, they don’t. HE shells have a fixed penetration value that is independent of range and all other factors. All that matters is the listed HE pen of the shell and the thickness of the plating it strikes.

When an HE shell hits, it explodes on contact. This triggers two independent checks:

1) If the pen (which is a fixed value) exceeds the thickness of the plating it hits, it deals penetration damage (1/3 the listed damage in port). If the shell hits and can penetrate the citadel plating, it deals full damage just like an AP citadel.

2) Regardless of whether the shell pens, shatters, etc, there is a fire check. This is dependent on the shell characteristics as well as various characteristics of the target. This roll is skipped if the shell strikes a section already on fire.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire#Fire_Chance

4 minutes ago, Seawolf148 said:

Perhaps I needed to clarify. It's the 128mm HE shells on my GK. With IFHE it pens 32mm. So, it would pen the 32mm armour on the Jean Bart?

GK’s 128mm HE shells have 32mm of base pen (without IFHE), so yes, these shells will penetrate if they strike the 32mm plating of Jean Bart. Btw, don’t run IFHE of GK. You lose a lot of fire chance to pen 40mm armor, which isn’t worth it.

Edited by Nevermore135
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1 minute ago, Nevermore135 said:

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

No, they don’t. HE shells have a fixed penetration value that is independent of range and all other factors. All that matters is the listed HE pen of the shell and the thickness of the plating it strikes.

When an HE shell hits, it explodes on contact. This triggers two independent checks:

1) If the pen (which is a fixed value) exceeds the thickness of the plating it hits, it deals penetration damage (1/3 the listed damage in port). If the it hits and can penetrate the citadel plating, it deals full damage just like an AP citadel.

2) Regardless of whether the shell pens, shatters, etc, there is a fire check. This is dependent on the shell characteristics as well as various characteristics of the target. This roll is skipped if the shell strikes a section already on fire.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire#Fire_Chance

GK’s 128mm HE shells have 32mm of base pen (without IFHE), so yes, these shells will penetrate if they strike the 32mm plating of Jean Bart. Btw, don’t run IFHE of GK. You lose a lot of fire chance to pen 40mm armor, which isn’t worth it.

I am going by this

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

WHich is the core of the OP question... Armor protection/penetration...

Edited by Navalpride33

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1 minute ago, Navalpride33 said:

Disagree... Longer Ranges you get fires not pens (You can see in the "HIT" summery in game, how many were pens or other)... Not every  (say for example ) 152 gun caliber in the game have the same shell values...

Therefor, HE shells shatter, Rico, or Non-pen because when the reach the furthest target... Its doesn't have any velocity to Pen. 

I would also add those ships with 1/6 and IFHE

32 mm Tier 8 - 10 battleship bow/stern, tier 8 - 10 British and French battleships' casemate plating, Slava deck plating Heavy cruisers (203 mm)
German 128 - 150 mm guns (both main and secondary)
Most light cruisers (152 mm, 155 mm, 180 mm)
Japanese 100 mm guns

 

Uh, no. That's not how it works.

HE penetration depends on shell caliber. Most (but not all) HE shells have a penetration of 1/6 their caliber. So a 152mm shell has 26mm of penetration. Range and angle do not factor. When a shell hits it simply checks if it has enough penetration to go through the armor. If it does you get a penetration, if it doesn't you get a shatter. That's it. Penetrating shells then go through the damage calculation, which is more complicated, 33% unless torpedo protection or saturation kick in. Module damage is also applied. But the penetration calculation is simple. There are no overpens or richochets for HE. Fire chance is a completely separate calculation that does not depend on the result of the penetration check, shatters and pens have an equal chance of starting a fire.

Some HE shells have 1/4 penetration. German 128, 152 and 203 (and similar calibers) get 1/4 as do their main guns. RN BBs and CAs also get 1/4. IJN 100mm guns get even more, a flat 30mm pen. 6" guns of T8+ CLs get 1/5. But their penetration checks work the same.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

5 minutes ago, Seawolf148 said:

Perhaps I needed to clarify. It's the 128mm HE shells on my GK. With IFHE it pens 32mm. So, it would pen the 32mm armour on the Jean Bart?

128mm secondaries on KMS BBs have 1/4 pen, which gives you 32mm pen even without IFHE. So your stock 128s can pen the 32mm plating on JB.

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13 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

I am going by this

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_thresholds

WHich is the core of the OP question... Armor protection/penetration...

The OP is asking about HE shells. HE shell penetration is not affected by range, velocity, etc. This addresses neither what you originally said nor my response to you.

Edited by Nevermore135

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10 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

The OP is asking about HE shells. HE shell penetration is not affected by range, velocity, etc. This is not a rebuttal of anything I’ve said.

ALthough it says it doesn't matter distance and velocity... I am not convinced its the case for light cruisers...

But since that is not the topic the OP asked... We did come to the same conclusion...

So I digress :Smile_izmena:. I'll look into the cruiser part  later...

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18 minutes ago, AJTP89 said:

Uh, no. That's not how it works.

HE penetration depends on shell caliber. Most (but not all) HE shells have a penetration of 1/6 their caliber. So a 152mm shell has 26mm of penetration. Range and angle do not factor. When a shell hits it simply checks if it has enough penetration to go through the armor. If it does you get a penetration, if it doesn't you get a shatter. That's it. Penetrating shells then go through the damage calculation, which is more complicated, 33% unless torpedo protection or saturation kick in. Module damage is also applied. But the penetration calculation is simple. There are no overpens or richochets for HE. Fire chance is a completely separate calculation that does not depend on the result of the penetration check, shatters and pens have an equal chance of starting a fire.

Some HE shells have 1/4 penetration. German 128, 152 and 203 (and similar calibers) get 1/4 as do their main guns. RN BBs and CAs also get 1/4. IJN 100mm guns get even more, a flat 30mm pen. 6" guns of T8+ CLs get 1/5. But their penetration checks work the same.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

128mm secondaries on KMS BBs have 1/4 pen, which gives you 32mm pen even without IFHE. So your stock 128s can pen the 32mm plating on JB.

Thank you. I thought it would, just couldn't remember.

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53 minutes ago, Navalpride33 said:

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.

I've always wondered if it's actually possible for an HE shell to penetrate when an AP shell fired from exactly the same gun at exactly the same range and angle to the target would not.  If that is the case, it is kind of a weird game mechanic, since AP shells are specifically designed to pierce armor.

Edited by zubalkabir

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46 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

I've always wondered if it's actually possible for an HE shell to penetrate when an AP shell fired from exactly the same gun at exactly the same range and angle to the target would not.  If that is the case, it is kind of a weird game mechanic, since AP shells are specifically designed to pierce armor.

It is. For example, 406mm HE commonly has 68mm of HE pen (German and British 406mm HE has 102mm of penetration). Thus, 406mm HE will pen the 32mm bow plating of high tier BBs every time regardless of angle, range, etc.

However, 406mm AP does not overmatch 32mm plating. This means that if the target is sufficiently angled (such as bow-on) 406mm AP would bounce and deal zero damage. This is why the 460mm+ guns of the tier X Japanese BBs are such a big deal: 460mm+ AP can overmatch 32mm, meaning that you can’t bow-tank these ships the way you can 406 and 457mm armed ships.

The mechanics exist in this way for game balance. The idea is that HE allows for lower, but more consistent, damage output while AP is capable of dealing more damage against targets that are not properly angled (or lack the armor to prevent overmatch). Knowing what your shells can pen and when to swap ammo is incredibly important.

Edited by Nevermore135

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34 minutes ago, zubalkabir said:

I've always wondered if it's actually possible for an HE shell to penetrate when an AP shell fired from exactly the same gun at exactly the same range and angle to the target would not.  If that is the case, it is kind of a weird game mechanic, since AP shells are specifically designed to pierce armor.

 

HE shells have a fixed penetration value, and it's generally a lot lower than an AP shell.

However, they are not affected by range or angle. 32mm of penetration is 32mm of penetration.

Normally, an AP shell, fired relatively square to a target, and moderate ranges, will penetrate a lot more armor than an HE shell. Potentially hundreds of mm of armor.

However, longer ranges can result in reduced AP shell penetration, steep angles can increase the effective armor of the target, and if the caliber isn't enough to overmatch, there's autobounce checks to worry about. 

Edited by SgtBeltfed
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@Seawolf148

Please don't title your thread with things like, "penetration".

I was quite disappointed with what I found, here.

Edited by desmo_2
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2 hours ago, desmo_2 said:

@Seawolf148

Please don't title your thread with things like, "penetration".

I was quite disappointed with what I found, here.

Go to horny jail

fc8e6mhklxa61.thumb.png.2ed7bc1de76b8c9450e52e7c0ed1c575.png

bonk

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14 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.

Velocity and distance have no bearing on penetration of HE shells, a 6" shell fired by a Cleveland at 14km has the same pen as a 6" shell fired by a Chapayev at 2km.

 

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration

Edited by Skpstr

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2 hours ago, Skpstr said:

Velocity and distance have no bearing on penetration of HE shells, a 6" shell fired by a Cleveland at 14km has the same pen as a 6" shell fired by a Chapayev at 2km.

I digress to the point, However... In my post #5, it does state "most light cruisers."

Since cruisers was not the OPs topic... Moot point...

 

Edited by Navalpride33

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Yes, it became simpler with the IFHE rework in patch 0.9.2.

Quote

The rules for calculating armor-penetration have been changed for all HE and SAP shells: a new rule—"a shell penetrates armor if the armor-thickness value is less than or equal to the shell-penetration value"—will now be applied instead of the old rule—"a shell penetrates armor if the armor-thickness value is strictly less than the shell-penetration value." For example, 152 mm shells fired from a Tier VII cruiser will be able to penetrate armor plating with a thickness of up to 25 mm, as opposed to the 24 mm it used to be.

 

To add to the chorus, HE pen isn't variable with range and accuracy. It's fixed for your ship's guns and only cares if you have IFHE or not.

https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Armor_Penetration#HE_penetration

Quote

HE penetration

Unlike AP shells, the penetration of HE shells does not depend on the impact angle or velocity---rather, each HE shell has a fixed penetration value based upon the calibre of the shell which is compared to the raw thickness of the armor to determine a successful penetration. The formula for calculating this penetration value depends on a penetration coefficient based on the nation and type of ship. The default coefficient is 1/6th of the shell's diameter for most ships, but 1/4th for most British battleships, certain German cruisers, and certain German battleships. Cruisers from Tier VIII-X with caliber of 152-155mm enjoys 1/5th HE penetration. Additionally, Japanese ships with 100mm main and secondary guns have special penetration value of 30 mm.

Edited by SoothingWhaleSongEU

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17 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

That will depend on the shells characteristic

  • Velocity
  • Weight

... Distance  from the target...

Its the same calculation for AP to get citadels...

I would like to conclude, yes it will penetrate... Only if the above variable permit it to.

There are no variables, either your HE penetrates a given armor value or it doesn't, it's that simple.

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17 hours ago, Navalpride33 said:

Disagree... Longer Ranges you get fires not pens (You can see in the "HIT" summery in game, how many were pens or other)... Not every  (say for example ) 152 gun caliber in the game have the same shell values...

Therefor, HE shells shatter, Rico, or Non-pen because when the reach the furthest target... Its doesn't have any velocity to Pen. 

I would also add those ships with 1/6 and IFHE

32 mm Tier 8 - 10 battleship bow/stern, tier 8 - 10 British and French battleships' casemate plating, Slava deck plating Heavy cruisers (203 mm)
German 128 - 150 mm guns (both main and secondary)
Most light cruisers (152 mm, 155 mm, 180 mm)
Japanese 100 mm guns
  • "Must light cruisers is not the same as ALL light cruisers"

Completely false.  Velocity doesn't matter.

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17 hours ago, Seawolf148 said:

Perhaps I needed to clarify. It's the 128mm HE shells on my GK. With IFHE it pens 32mm. So, it would pen the 32mm armour on the Jean Bart?

Yes, whatever armor penetration value is listed in port, then that's the armor value it will pen.

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