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Battlecruiser_Yavuz

Brainstorm Fun: Age of Sail Warships PvP Ideas?

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Hello!

This is probably me being hopped up on the Pirates of the Caribbean films, Master and Commander as well as the Hornblower novels I've been binging, but I thought this would be a fun topic for this part of the forum.

The Age of Sail is a romantic period of naval history for Europe - the "wooden ships and iron men" era of history as 17th to 19th-century warriors fought on the high seas in gargantuan vessels. 

Let us say that a company, WG or otherwise, wanted you to have some input on a potential World of Warships-like Age of Sail game - an arena where captains can use tall ships to bash each other on the high seas and gain objectives to help their team win.  What would you propose, if you find the idea viable?  Here are some questions to help stimulate discussion:

-Do you even find the idea of an Age of Sail arena to even be a good idea?  Why or why not?

-What period of the Age of Sail will be the main focus of the game?  For example, World of Warships is mainly focused on the Second World War with First World War vessels and Cold War vessels making up the beginning and end of the tier trees, respectively.

-What kind of ships would you like in the tech trees?  How would you balance these ships against each other?

-For the captains, what skills do you think would be appropriate to help a ship be enhanced in battle?  Any ideas for premium captains - noteworthy officers who might be attractive to players?

-What nations do you think would make viable tech trees for this game? 

-What premium ships do you think would be appropriate for players to buy and / or earn for the game?

-What ship would you personally like to sail - type and / or name, whether they are premium or tech tree?

Thanks!

 

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There's a game doing this, or at least trying to do this; Naval Action that offers both PvP and PvE, though from what I have gathered there's some issues.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/311310/Naval_Action/

Personally, I'd probably split the ships in 2-3 distinct eras, with different ship tiering.

  1. Age of Discovery (late 15th, mid 17th-early 18th)
  2. Golden Age (mid 18th, early-mid 19th)
  3. Era of the Ironclads (mid 19th- end of 19th).

Personally I'd love to captain a Galley like the ones used by the end of the 16th century or some offshoots like a Xebec or a Polacre.

 

Edited by warheart1992
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16 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

There's a game doing this, or at least trying to do this; Naval Action that offers both PvP and PvE, though from what I have gathered there's some issues.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/311310/Naval_Action/

Personally, I'd probably split the ships in 2-3 distinct eras, with different ship tiering.

  1. Age of Discovery (late 15th, mid 17th-early 18th)
  2. Golden Age (mid 18th, early-mid 19th)
  3. Era of the Ironclads (mid 19th- end of 19th).

Personally I'd love to captain a Galley like the ones used by the end of the 16th century or some offshoots like a Xebec or a Polacre.

 

While I do love Naval Action, it is more sim than arcade - the latter being more akin to World of Warships.

It takes a long time to do anything in Naval Action, in my opinion, and isn't really a quick in-and-out sort of affair.

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17 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

While I do love Naval Action, it is more sim than arcade - the latter being more akin to World of Warships.

It takes a long time to do anything in Naval Action, in my opinion, and isn't really a quick in-and-out sort of affair.

Yeah I can understand, I was considering getting the game but various reviews on the PvP aspect dissuaded me . If you still got some Golden Age of Sail itch and are willing to overlook a giant number of issues and bugs, then some Russian developers out of all people made a hardcore Carribean/Pirate themed open world RPG, Sea Dogs. Got it for like 3 bucks on Steam's Christmas sale. Single player only,  as I said rife with bugs and very unforgiving, but I logged something like 172 hours in it and didn't even realize it. The same company also made a Pirates of the Carribean licensed game that I used to play as a kid, so I was kinda amazed when I found out they got more of these out.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/223330/Sea_Dogs_To_Each_His_Own__Pirate_Open_World_RPG/

Edited by warheart1992

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13 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Yeah I can understand, I was considering getting the game but various reviews on the PvP aspect dissuaded me . If you still got some Golden Age of Sail itch and are willing to overlook a giant number of issues and bugs, then some Russian developers out of all people made a hardcore Carribean/Pirate themed open world RPG, Sea Dogs. Got it for like 3 bucks on Steam's Christmas sale. Single player only,  as I said rife with bugs and very unforgiving, but I logged something like 172 hours in it and didn't even realize it. The same company also made a Pirates of the Carribean licensed game that I used to play as a kid, so I was kinda amazed when I found out they got more of these out.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/223330/Sea_Dogs_To_Each_His_Own__Pirate_Open_World_RPG/

I saw that on Steam!

I'm personally looking forward to Skull and Bones.  While it is delayed, it is apparently still being worked on:

This Age of Sail bug has really bitten me hard :Smile_amazed:

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11 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

I saw that on Steam!

I'm personally looking forward to Skull and Bones.  While it is delayed, it is apparently still being worked on:

 

I remember seeing that back on E3 and thinking to myself "took them long enough to realize the AC Black Flag system would make for a mean standalone pirate title".

Hope it comes out at some point; Sea of Thieves, Blackwake, Naval Action have shown there's  still a market for pirate/age of sail games.

Edited by warheart1992
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35 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

I remember seeing that back on E3 and thinking to myself "took them long enough to realize the AC Black Flag system would make for a mean standalone pirate title".

Hope it comes out at some point; Sea of Thieves, Blackwake, Naval Action have shown there's  still a market for pirate/age of sail games.

AC Black Flag really revealed that a standalone pirate game could be fun.  I hope the story and gameplay is pretty good.

Man.  I remember the days when pirates stuff was all the rage, mostly due to the original Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

Those were the days.  I remembered playing the Pirates of the Spanish Main constructible strategy game as well, which collaborated with Pirates of the Caribbean for the third film.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-spanish-main

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Being a Yank, one of the Constitutions.

For pure history, HMS Victory.

Mary Rose and Vasa might be nice, but only if the weight and balance issues are resolved.

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22 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

AC Black Flag really revealed that a standalone pirate game could be fun.  I hope the story and gameplay is pretty good.

Man.  I remember the days when pirates stuff was all the rage, mostly due to the original Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy.

Those were the days.  I remembered playing the Pirates of the Spanish Main constructible strategy game as well, which collaborated with Pirates of the Caribbean for the third film.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10653/pirates-spanish-main

That one looks pretty darn fun, albeit in need of some room. Also another game that completely blew me away when I first played was Sid Meier's Pirates. I'd go as far as to argue that if there's a classic pirate game, this is it.

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33 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

That one looks pretty darn fun, albeit in need of some room. Also another game that completely blew me away when I first played was Sid Meier's Pirates. I'd go as far as to argue that if there's a classic pirate game, this is it. 

Oh!  I love Sid Meier's Pirates.  I bought it for Steam again and spent too many hours playing it.

My guy is loyal to Spain and is cruising around in a Large Frigate :fish_cute_2:.

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35 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Being a Yank, one of the Constitutions.

For pure history, HMS Victory.

Mary Rose and Vasa might be nice, but only if the weight and balance issues are resolved.

Those two bottom ships have lots of guns.

I wonder how a dev could balance unrated vs rated ships?  I think frigates, according to the Napoleonic War settings, were on the tail end of the rated system.

Maybe no unrated ships since they can't really do well in the line of battle - the main way of fighting during the Age of Sail with the bigger ships?

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I'd love to see WoWs add a game mode like Naval Action...  

Toss in port conquest where players can capture ports to eventually capture the map...   i can dream...

i spent way too much time playing naval action... 

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43 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

Oh!  I love Sid Meier's Pirates.  I bought it for Steam again and spent too many hours playing it.

My guy is loyal to Spain and is cruising around in a Large Frigate :fish_cute_2:.

Yeah I think Henry Morgan had a Large Frigate you could conveniently capture :Smile_hiding:.

 

41 minutes ago, Battlecruiser_Yavuz said:

Those two bottom ships have lots of guns.

I wonder how a dev could balance unrated vs rated ships?  I think frigates, according to the Napoleonic War settings, were on the tail end of the rated system.

Maybe no unrated ships since they can't really do well in the line of battle - the main way of fighting during the Age of Sail with the bigger ships?

Frigates afaik were hovering on 6th to 5th rate, depending on amount of cannons. Though in general I think it can get more complicated. Ships that underwent razee (shaving off a deck) could turn from being ships of the line into frigates or great frigates technically. I think the system is often more of an aproximation than set in stone.

The only way I can think of being able to balance unrated vs rated ships is by A: giving unrated ships more accurate, longer ranged armament, B: making them almost stupidly fast and maneuverable, C:  introduce depth mechanics to allow lighter ships with lower draft to be able to get closer to islands or use routes unreachable by heavier vessels.

 

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HMS Victory as the first UK premium.

Trouble is the technology doesn't really change all that much between the start of the age of gunpowder and the start of the age of steam. Tiering might be difficult.

"And remember, don't show broadsi... oh wait." :Smile_trollface:

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I encourage all to try naval action or at least look it up...

these are the same devs who are working on Ulitmate Admiral: Dreadnoughts

Ultimate Admiral Dreadnoughts at the moment is mostly just a ship building tool...   but i wonder if it isn't a small piece of something else that maybe coming..  will they eventually do a dreadnoughts era of naval action...   i'd never come back...

and if it spanned through to ships of ww2..  it would be easily to fit things like subs, armed merchants, cv's...  pt boats...

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For age of sail it could be done, but to make the game interesting it would have to involve more than just blasting away at an opposing ship.

To do that, you'd need to consider the aspects of sailing, crew size and capability, as well as--of course--the Captain's skills.

Few sailing warships could manage to man their guns and man the rigging to maneuver under sail at the same time.  There simply wasn't enough crew, and coordination of both operations would be hard to manage in all that smoke and noise.  In a game, you might be able to allot crew to one or the other task.

The other aspect is where the wind is and the wind gage.  You'd also have to choose how much sail you want in use.  More runs the risk of fouling the deck should any of it be shot off, or overboard becoming a sea anchor and limiting your maneuverability and speed.  Trying fancy maneuvers like box hauling might be possible, but the risk is you are putting the crew on maneuvering so you have less firing going on.  But done right it could put you in a position of superiority on the stern of an opponent.

Choosing long guns (cannon) or shorter range carronades (when these came available) would be another aspect.  Carronades can hit harder for the same weight of mount than a long gun but you have only short range so a cannon armed ship could stand off and pound you.

Do you fire for rigging to de-mast and cripple your opponent's ability to move, or do you try for hull shots to take out their firepower and potentially cause flooding?

If early steam and late oared ships are included, then there would be even more options for varied play.

 

 

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The key for a World of Warships style game to work in the age of sail requires the smaller frigates to be able to defeat those 1st rate ships of the line.  In Napoleon Total War, a 3rd rate 74 gun ship of the line can sail circles around a 2nd rate 98 gun ship of the line at close range, effectively remaining in the ships blind spot and thus capable of defeating it.  You'll notice that the 1st rates didn't do much at Trafalgar, HMS Victory failed to sink a single ship and the super-1st rate, the 140 gun Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad also failed to sink any ships due to be so unresponsive to the helm during the battle due to her massive size and weight.  If such a game were implemented, the biggest and most powerful ships would require screens to prevent being caught in their blind spot by a faster ship.

Another interesting thing to see is the national traits.  USN ships of the line were special in that they used uniform batteries unlike other navies, resulting in massive close range firepower at the cost of not having a row of long range guns.

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On 2/22/2021 at 5:19 PM, Sventex said:

You'll notice that the 1st rates didn't do much at Trafalgar, HMS Victory failed to sink a single ship and the super-1st rate, the 140 gun Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad also failed to sink any ships due to be so unresponsive to the helm during the battle due to her massive size and weight. 

To be fair, the only ship to sink at Trafalgar was the Achille, and that was largely due to blowing up. Its hard to give credit to a single ship for this, because like most of the ships in the Franco-Spanish fleet that were engaged, they were often engaged by multiple ships. Achille, for instance, engaged at various times, no fewer than four enemy ships of the line. 

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8 hours ago, mr3awsome said:

To be fair, the only ship to sink at Trafalgar was the Achille, and that was largely due to blowing up. Its hard to give credit to a single ship for this, because like most of the ships in the Franco-Spanish fleet that were engaged, they were often engaged by multiple ships. Achille, for instance, engaged at various times, no fewer than four enemy ships of the line. 

I should clarify that I'm counting all the ships that sunk in the hours after Trafalgar as ships sunk at Trafalgar.  A lot of French and Spanish ships foundered or wreaked themselves trying to get back to a port due to the sheer damage they sustained.  I was more refencing the fact that the 1st rates did not make a name for themselves in the battle, after Victory locked horns with Redoutable, she was effectively knocked out of the battle.  Barely anything was written about Santa Ana, Principe de Asturias and Rayo's combat performance.  Then you have HMS Royal Sovereign, attempting to disengage from the fight and act as flagship in response to Nelson's death, only to be unable to hoist any signals due most of her masts being completely shot away and later being rendered "virtually uninhabitable" and abandoned by Admiral Collingwood.  And of course you have the famous Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad being a sitting duck, unable to respond until surrounded. 

It was not a glorious day for first rates.  Victory and Royal Sovereign had to be unceremoniously towed back to port.

Edited by Sventex

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5 hours ago, Sventex said:

It was not a glorious day for first rates.  Victory and Royal Sovereign had to be unceremoniously towed back to port.

Being at the tip of their respective columns and subject to the most fire when closing, and then the thickest combat with the freshest enemy ships with the least support is a little bit of a disadvantage when it comes to taking damage or not.

If the Spanish and French first rates did poorly, then so did their entire force, plenty of 74's and 80's knocked out or captured.

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2 hours ago, mofton said:

Being at the tip of their respective columns and subject to the most fire when closing, and then the thickest combat with the freshest enemy ships with the least support is a little bit of a disadvantage when it comes to taking damage or not.

If the Spanish and French first rates did poorly, then so did their entire force, plenty of 74's and 80's knocked out or captured.

As I said, it was not a glorious day for first rates.

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16 hours ago, Sventex said:

I should clarify that I'm counting all the ships that sunk in the hours after Trafalgar as ships sunk at Trafalgar.  A lot of French and Spanish ships foundered or wreaked themselves trying to get back to a port due to the sheer damage they sustained.  I was more refencing the fact that the 1st rates did not make a name for themselves in the battle, after Victory locked horns with Redoutable, she was effectively knocked out of the battle.  Barely anything was written about Santa Ana, Principe de Asturias and Rayo's combat performance.  Then you have HMS Royal Sovereign, attempting to disengage from the fight and act as flagship in response to Nelson's death, only to be unable to hoist any signals due most of her masts being completely shot away and later being rendered "virtually uninhabitable" and abandoned by Admiral Collingwood.  And of course you have the famous Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad being a sitting duck, unable to respond until surrounded. 

It was not a glorious day for first rates.  Victory and Royal Sovereign had to be unceremoniously towed back to port.

Victory and Royal Sovereign were both heavily damaged as they were both first in action, and therefore received the greater part of fire directed on the approach. The first 74 to make it into action was the Belleisle in Collingwood's column, which was reduced to near a wreck, and was only saved by the arrival of the following ships in the division. Indeed, all of the first ships into action on the British side suffered heavily, regardless of their rating, and if anything it is a testament to their construction that they were able to make it to port, despite the storm. Santa Ana did fairly well, getting locked into combat with Royal Sovereign until obliged to strike. Principe de Asturias also did fairly well, pushing Revenge hard until she came under attack from Thunderer and Dreadnought. Rayo was in the van and seems to have done little and less, like much of the van, whilst Santisima Trinidad proved disappointing in the weather conditions. Britannia arguably did about as much as Rayo, not getting into action for more than three hours, and having been overtaken multiple times on the way in. 

In proportion to the composition of the fleets, I would say that the 1st rates did their fair share of work, being the ram that kicked the door in to allow the lighter ships to do their work. The Admiral having to change ships afterwards is hardly surprising given the heat of the fight, and that they arrived at the point when the enemy was most capable. 

Perhaps not a glorious day for first rates. The glory of that day firmly belongs to the men aboard the British ships.  

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