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Lucerious

Change to Top Grade Gunner

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I think the 10% boost to secondary firing rate from this skill should be swapped out in favor of a -10 or -20 percent dispersion boost. Maybe WG will consider it after they get their "data together" and take a second look at their commander skill revamp...

It would add some quality of life for those of us who enjoy cruisers with workable secondary batteries like the Baltimore, Hipper or Des Moines, to name a few.

Bottom line is that it just looks dumb having hundreds of shells fly every which way -- except for the target -- even at point blank range in these ships.

Edited by Lucerious
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The firing rate increase is fine and decreasing dispersion by 20% would bring secondary dispersion too close to the original -60% which was too large a buff and probably should have been reduced some a long time ago.

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Cruisers secondaries to accurate..... Needing to be reduced... Can I have what your smoking please... 

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15 minutes ago, _Madcows_ said:

Cruisers secondaries to accurate..... Needing to be reduced... Can I have what your smoking please... 

I don't personally agree with removing secondary spec from cruisers but that 60% reduction was too much. I also think that the new 35% reduction with guns that don't bear firing on any target in range is a little short of where it should be, I think 40% or maybe even 45% would be better.

Edited by BrushWolf

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7 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

...and decreasing dispersion by 20% would bring secondary dispersion too close to the original -60%

I don't believe that cruisers with MFCS were ever really an issue. And considering that cruisers have no way to regain any of that lost 60%, I don't think that would be out of line.

I mean really, BBs have lost around half of their -60%, and look how much less effective their secondaries are, and they typically have more of them, with greater range.

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15 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

I don't personally agree with removing secondary spec from cruisers but that 60% reduction was too much. I also think that the new 35% reduction with guns that don't bear firing on any target in range is a little short of where it should be, I think 40% or maybe even 45% would be better.

Okay so a skill and build that was let's face it rare and mostly meme worthy (ie secondary cruiser) needed to be nerfed.. Basically only possible on supercruisers and with that the German one your saying it was still too effective before makes no sense. To use even prior to rework it was limited to find situations where it could work and they were typically brief (hence accuracy kinda required) I'm sorry but I just don't understand the problem. I mean even BBs got very limited use out of this let's be honest and they have far greater survival which cruisers most certainly don't. 

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2 minutes ago, _Madcows_ said:

Okay so a skill and build that was let's face it rare and mostly meme worthy (ie secondary cruiser) needed to be nerfed.. Basically only possible on supercruisers and with that the German one your saying it was still too effective before makes no sense. To use even prior to rework it was limited to find situations where it could work and they were typically brief (hence accuracy kinda required) I'm sorry but I just don't understand the problem. I mean even BBs got very limited use out of this let's be honest and they have far greater survival which cruisers most certainly don't. 

I am talking about secondary builds in general, not the cruiser secondary spec.

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8 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

I am talking about secondary builds in general, not the cruiser secondary spec.

OP is talking cruisers though... 

Also Im sorry but don't cruisers have no skill to increase dispersion except selecting the ship which is a minor buff... 

BBs with even the 35% buff to dispersion skill are severely lacking so I still don't get your point... 

 

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2 minutes ago, _Madcows_ said:

OP is talking cruisers though... 

Also Im sorry but don't cruisers have no skill to increase dispersion except selecting the ship which is a minor buff... 

BBs with even the 35% buff to dispersion skill are severely lacking so I still don't get your point... 

 

Cruisers, DD's, and CV's all lost secondary spec, only BB's can do it now.

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50 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

So much choice now!

This guy understands. 

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Oh wow they removed a build option for DD that only like 2 ships in the game could use and it was only an absurd meme anyway. Such a great loss.

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On 2/19/2021 at 5:14 AM, Skpstr said:

And considering that cruisers have no way to regain any of that lost 60%,

Mike Yankee Soxisix remains available.

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2 hours ago, black_hull4 said:

Mike Yankee Soxisix remains available.

They never lost that though, and I think that only boosts range anyway.

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44 minutes ago, Skpstr said:

and I think that only boosts range anyway.

Nope:

  • +5% range
  • -5% reload
  • -5% dispersion

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23 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

I am talking about secondary builds in general, not the cruiser secondary spec.

So you are saying Secondary builds were too strong, or OP?  Quite the claim.  What can you say to back that up?

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1 minute ago, YouSatInGum said:

So you are saying Secondary builds were too strong, or OP?  Quite the claim.  What can you say to back that up?

I am saying that the 60% dispersion reduction was too large. I think that the current 35% reduction is a trifle low and that 40% or even 45% would be better. There is a bit of a buff with the new system in that the off side guns and any that do not bear on the target will engage other ships that are in range. 

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On 2/19/2021 at 12:20 AM, Lucerious said:

Baltimore, Hipper or Des Moines,

First of all, Balti and DM have almost useless secondaries, and Hipper's engine gets knocked out far too often to use her decent secondaries

and the only Cruisers that could really go into secondaries are Aegir, Siegfried, and Roon, but Roon is too squishy to use them, so the Secondary buff to TGG could just be removed and no one will notice

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Hipper's engine gets knocked out too often, you say? 

Almost as if it could use PM, and maybe even BOS? 

 

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1 hour ago, black_hull4 said:

Nope:

  • +5% range
  • -5% reload
  • -5% dispersion

Well whaddaya know, I learned something today! :Smile_teethhappy:

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On 2/19/2021 at 12:20 AM, Lucerious said:

I think the 10% boost to secondary firing rate from this skill should be swapped out in favor of a -10 or -20 percent dispersion boost. Maybe WG will consider it after they get their "data together" and take a second look at their commander skill revamp...

It would add some quality of life for those of us who enjoy cruisers with workable secondary batteries like the Baltimore, Hipper or Des Moines, to name a few.

Bottom line is that it just looks dumb having hundreds of shells fly every which way -- except for the target -- even at point blank range in these ships.

Yep, actually, I'll do you one better.

Make Long Range Secondary Battery Shells (3pt skill) not only give +20% secondary battery range but ALSO -20% dispersion! Make it effectively a Secondary Battery Mod 2 in skill form. This would solve a LOT of problems with secondaries accuracy overall, I'd say.

And Close Quarters Combat, being a costly 4pt skill, make that secondary reload boost -20% instead of -10%. Leave the main battery boost as is.

And then in that case, Improved Secondary Battery Aiming can probably stay as is at -35% dispersion!

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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On 2/19/2021 at 12:53 AM, BrushWolf said:

The firing rate increase is fine and decreasing dispersion by 20% would bring secondary dispersion too close to the original -60% which was too large a buff and probably should have been reduced some a long time ago.

EDIT: So this is about BATTLESHIPS, apparently OP is talking about CRUISER SECONDARIES....Ehhh, just take this data dump anyways, it's regarding secondaries hit rates anyways XD

so you're saying THIS is better? This is current hit rate percentages against a destroyer, 8.5km range, and closing to point-blank. Main battery fire included, so don't even say that CQC's reload boost "makes up" for the secondaries loss. IT DOESN'T. Just putting that up, because the defenders are always claiming that as their trump card for claiming "secondaries are fine because of main battery reload boost". Nuh uh.

(Hit Rate Testing with T7 California vs T9 Yugumo, Training Map, engagement range 8.5km closing to point-blank range, main batteries fire whenever they are able to do so)

All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 10.2%, 14.4%, 10.6%, 11.4%, 11.3%, 11.5%, 9.6%, 12.5%, 15.2%, 8.3%
Average = approx. 11.5%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 10.7% ->14.8%

To explain a bit further the higher percentages are basically when the DD loses engines (immobile DD = more secondary hits), so you're REALLY looking at the lower end. 10.7% hitrate. 11.5% if we wanna be generous!

No, no, that -60% dispersion buff was necessary to get even remotely decent hit rates!

What, what, you want a similar test but with a battleship with improved dispersion? Ok, Oklahoma then. She has similar secondary reload times, as well as speed, and secondary range. AND she has the -40% improved secondaries dispersion baked in! Same scenario, bot, yadda yadda (the tiering makes little difference here, so yes, T5 vs T9, no issue)


All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 21.7%, 14.7%, 13.5%, 14.7%, 18.2%, 22.9%, 10.8%, 22.4%, 21.5%, 23.9%
Average = approx. 18.4%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 14.4% ->22.5%

Uh oh, am I actually seeing UNDER 20% hit rates on a full secondaries build on a USN Secondaries Battleship, at only 8.3km range, approaching point-blank range?! Yes. Yes I am. Major ouch.

You were saying something about NOT needing that dispersion, again?
 

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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14 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

EDIT: So this is about BATTLESHIPS, apparently OP is talking about CRUISER SECONDARIES....Ehhh, just take this data dump anyways, it's regarding secondaries hit rates anyways XD

so you're saying THIS is better? This is current hit rate percentages against a destroyer, 8.5km range, and closing to point-blank. Main battery fire included, so don't even say that CQC's reload boost "makes up" for the secondaries loss. IT DOESN'T. Just putting that up, because the defenders are always claiming that as their trump card for claiming "secondaries are fine because of main battery reload boost". Nuh uh.

(Hit Rate Testing with T7 California vs T9 Yugumo, Training Map, engagement range 8.5km closing to point-blank range, main batteries fire whenever they are able to do so)

All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 10.2%, 14.4%, 10.6%, 11.4%, 11.3%, 11.5%, 9.6%, 12.5%, 15.2%, 8.3%
Average = approx. 11.5%
Average Range = 10.7% ->14.8%

To explain a bit further the higher percentages are basically when the DD loses engines (immobile DD = more secondary hits), so you're REALLY looking at the lower end. 10.7% hitrate. 11.5% if we wanna be generous!

No, no, that -60% dispersion buff was necessary to get even remotely decent hit rates!

What, what, you want a similar test but with a battleship with improved dispersion? Ok, Oklahoma then. She has similar secondary reload times, as well as speed, and secondary range. AND she has the -40% improved secondaries dispersion baked in! Same scenario, bot, yadda yadda (the tiering makes little difference here, so yes, T5 vs T9, no issue)


All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 21.7%, 14.7%, 13.5%, 14.7%, 18.2%, 22.9%, 10.8%, 22.4%, 21.5%, 23.9%
Average = approx. 18.4%
Average Range = 14.4% ->22.5%

Uh oh, am I actually seeing UNDER 20% hit rates on a full secondaries build on a USN Secondaries Battleship, at only 8.3km range, approaching point-blank range?! Yes. Yes I am. Major ouch.

You were saying something about NOT needing that dispersion, again?
 

They both used the same skills for a secondary build and the buff was too large for cruisers too. Yeah, only a few cruisers could make good use of a secondary build but there are also a lot of BB's that can't make good use of the build. I disagree about taking it away from cruisers. I also said that I think the 35% buff is not large enough and that 40% or possibly 45% would be better

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6 minutes ago, BrushWolf said:

They both used the same skills for a secondary build and the buff was too large for cruisers too. Yeah, only a few cruisers could make good use of a secondary build but there are also a lot of BB's that can't make good use of the build. I disagree about taking it away from cruisers. I also said that I think the 35% buff is not large enough and that 40% or possibly 45% would be better

Yes, I would say at LEAST -50% dispersion buff, although maybe if WG added a -20% dispersion buff to Long Range Main Battery Shells skill, that'll do nicely. But yes, it's horrible that secondaries cruisers got the shaft big time :S

Sure, there weren't MANY cruisers that could do it, but still...the point is build diversity, not build removal, right?

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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2 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Yes, I would say at LEAST -50% dispersion buff, although maybe if WG added a -20% dispersion buff to Long Range Main Battery Shells skill, that'll do nicely. But yes, it's horrible that secondaries cruisers got the shaft big time :S

Sure, there weren't MANY cruisers that could do it, but still...the point is build diversity, not build removal, right?

I think that 50% is too large and that 40 - 45% is a better target.

What I dislike the more with the skill rework than the change to BB secondary builds is that the AA skills are AA only except for DD's which can buff AA and their guns with the same skills.

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