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Skyfaller

How to implement Kitakami (and other IJN Cruisers) and balance Long Lance Torpedoes. Fix 2 problems at once

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WG, 

There is a simple way to fix both the IJN Long Lance performance issues which will allow you to implement Kitakami in a balanced manner as well as fix the entire IJN Torpedo DD and Cruiser torpedoes:

 

Have them all share a single Long Lance Type93 torpedo type. 

 

The inspiration for, and the proof of concept of, to make this Long Lance is found in game right now in two ships: The USN BLACK destroyer and the Swedish destroyer line's torpedoes. 

From the USN Black we take the effect of a slow traveling (43kn) and stealthy torpedo (0.9km). From the Swedish torpedoes we take their low damage output (almost 11k per torp).

Combine these to produce a long range torpedo that not only would be balanced for use in the IJN line but it also mirrors the actual IRL Long Lance torpedo performance:

 

IJN Type 93 Long Lance: 

Speed: 45kn

Detectability: 1km

Range: 20km

Damage: 12k*

Flood Chance: Guaranteed*

Reload Timer: Ship dependent. 

*= The guaranteed flood helps offset the low damage of the torpedoes. The low detectability increases hit chance. The low speed makes using these torpedoes difficult, particularly at long ranges. 

 

If this torpedo type becomes the Long Lance option of all IJN torpedo capable ships starting from tier 6 it will give IJN a unique torpedo capability that does not make them overpowered. The ships will still have the option to use the existing non-long lance torpedoes as it is only the 20km torpedo that is being replaced. 

It would only be available to the destroyer torpedo line (shimakaze line) and to IJN cruisers. DD gunboat and BBs with torps do not get access to this 20km torpedo. 

The DD torpedo line gains an option to be truly long range torpedo and team spotters. The cruiser line gains a torpedo they can use from long range to harass and cause floods but it does not do heavy damage. Kitakami can fire 40 of these and essentially be chucking out the same overall damage output of a current shimakaze using a long lance torpedo option. 

When subs come out, this same torpedo could be used by the subs as well as an OPTION... aka they lose the ability to use homing torpedoes (and the citadel protection bypass effect) as these only fire straight ahead at the depth they are fired. But they gain range and guaranteed flood chance. 

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I am lately fond of Asashio as I got the Black version from the game. Ship rocks 20km torpedoes.

90% of my launches are within 10k-12km. Anything beyond that is only aimed at clusters of ships whose direction somewhat overlaps or when a Radar ship is in the vicinity.  And these are quick, super stealthy, high damage torpedoes. Same for Halland, though due to the speed I am more comfortable with 12-13km launches.  The question is though, how many players will get as close as possible to guarantee a hit, and how many will stick in the back to spam torpedoes?

In the seconds or minutes it takes for the torpedoes to hit a ship, loads of things can happen so dunno how well low torpedo speed will work, even though I've heard of Black having hilarious results sometimes.

Personally, as much as I dislike lots of aspects of the skill rework, torpedo boats got pretty good skills, further boosting torpedo speed, flooding chance and ship speed.

 

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ah yes, the Type 93, a massive, incredibly fast 24" torpedo with a whopping checks notes 12k alpha and 49kt in game speed

Edited by Kingpin61
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Why do these torps go so slow? For their time they were fast torps and you would make them among the slowest in the game. One of the issues with slow torps is a much higher chance of TK damage. When there are friendly ships going as fast or faster than your torps, there is no way to know who will cross their path in the distant future. The only safe firing angle becomes directly away from your team which can really limit your ability to actually use them.

I have a Black and know first hand the difficulties of slow torps. I can be sitting in smoke with a red ship charging almost straight at me at 7K. My shot to intercept him may be almost a 45 degree angle which can easily make those torps a problem for distant allies.

I assume this is for "balance" but it really can make it very difficult to safely use your torps.

By the way, US torps got their maximum range (IRL) at about 30kts. In game torp speeds are about 1.5  x IRL, Or whatever WG decides.

Edited by Sabot_100

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Lets do some math...

Speed = 45 knots or 83 Kilometers per Hour

Maximum Range = 20 kilometers

Time to maximum Range = 20 km/83 km/hr = 0.24 hours or 14.4 minutes.....I guess you would want to not delay launching at a distant target....

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4 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

I guess you would want to not delay launching at a distant target..

So roughly 7 min to go 10k? And what are the chances that area currently full of red BBs  at 10K will have green ships pushing on thru 

However, are WG speeds actually faster than indicated? Doesn't seem like it takes me 14 minutes to go 20K in my Fantasque.

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12 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

Lets do some math...

Speed = 45 knots or 83 Kilometers per Hour

Maximum Range = 20 kilometers

Time to maximum Range = 20 km/83 km/hr = 0.24 hours or 14.4 minutes.....I guess you would want to not delay launching at a distant target....

In game speeds are accelerated by about 5.25x, so 45kt torpedoes become 236kt torpedoes (don't worry, 30kt ships become 150kt ships).

More like 3 minutes to get out there, which is still terrible by WOWS standards, but not insane.

 

56 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

Combine these to produce a long range torpedo that not only would be balanced for use in the IJN line but it also mirrors the actual IRL Long Lance torpedo performance:

Why, when every torpedo in game is boosted by about 20kt (through a slightly more complicated formula) should the IJN 'long lance' be the only torpedo subject to historic performance? Do you want corresponding 30kt torpedoes for other nations?

These torpedoes sound awful, the damage of the Pan-European. Meaningless range advantage. 45kt instead of 70kt speed and 'guaranteed flooding' when flooding is largely guaranteed most of the time anyway.

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36 minutes ago, DJC_499 said:

Lets do some math...

Speed = 45 knots or 83 Kilometers per Hour

Maximum Range = 20 kilometers

Time to maximum Range = 20 km/83 km/hr = 0.24 hours or 14.4 minutes.....I guess you would want to not delay launching at a distant target....

Range in the game is compressed as well as ship sizes being overblown. Count how long it takes BLACK torps to reach their 13km max then double it to get a better estimate. Its not 14 minutes.  

Yes, the torpedo will be SLOW and thats why as an OPTION the player chooses from it gets 20km and low detectability. Similar to the current 20km's, you do not launch them at long range targets because its still a minute+ swimming time... you aim them at where you expect ships to be around that time. 

The low damage and guaranteed flood balances out the number of tubes you can launch from.. shimakaze and kitakami especially. Cruisers and tier 6-9 DDs may take these torps merely as an option and it would be solely based on player playstyle...and its 20km range at lower tiers and that alone is a huge advantage. 

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1 hour ago, Sabot_100 said:

So roughly 7 min to go 10k? And what are the chances that area currently full of red BBs  at 10K will have green ships pushing on thru 

However, are WG speeds actually faster than indicated? Doesn't seem like it takes me 14 minutes to go 20K in my Fantasque.

I know that the in-game listed speeds are 20kt faster than IRL speeds

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2 hours ago, mofton said:

In game speeds are accelerated by about 5.25x, so 45kt torpedoes become 236kt torpedoes (don't worry, 30kt ships become 150kt ships).

More like 3 minutes to get out there, which is still terrible by WOWS standards, but not insane.

 

Why, when every torpedo in game is boosted by about 20kt (through a slightly more complicated formula) should the IJN 'long lance' be the only torpedo subject to historic performance? Do you want corresponding 30kt torpedoes for other nations?

These torpedoes sound awful, the damage of the Pan-European. Meaningless range advantage. 45kt instead of 70kt speed and 'guaranteed flooding' when flooding is largely guaranteed most of the time anyway.

Because they want IJN torpedoes to be nerfed. Skyfaller has been posting this idea to "buff" IJN torpedoes like this for years and it's pretty obvious bad faith.

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On 2/18/2021 at 1:45 PM, Skyfaller said:

Range in the game is compressed as well as ship sizes being overblown.

Range is not compressed.  Speeds are multiplied, as stated above, by about 5.25 their stated value.\

This idea is terrible.  You, who whines constantly about IJN performance, would advise the biggest nerf that IJN DDs have every had inflicted on them.

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