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Qilang

Massachusetts

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just played her for few games, her main guns are all over the place. just suck.

I think concealment is a must for this ship. secondary is overrated by a mile.

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Tier VII+ secondary builds lost secondary accuracy with the skill rework. It’s not as noticeable for high tier German ships (they got a buff that partially compensated for the difference) but for the American premium BBs it is very apparent.

Edited by Nevermore135
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WG killed the US secondary ships... of course they did. I got them and maxxed my commanders to use them... it's how it works here.  Move that goalpost.

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When asked about the commander rework regarding it's effect on secondary build ships they said, "our intention is not for secondary builds to be any less effective".

Yeah, so they took the AA out of them, lowered the accuracy buff for the skill as a whole and only buffed the accuracy of the German line.  They did buff the range of some ships and the skills accuracy for ships below T7 so there is that.  As for Massachusetts, Georgia and Ohio they got a fat nerf.  Their secondaries are small caliber and low penetration which means they are primarily useful on small lightly armored targets and the superstructure of larger ones.  WG says the lowered accuracy of the manual fire skill was to balance the fact that secondaries now shoot off both sides regardless of a ship being selected (which they should have done all along).  Well this is pretty worthless when those blind side secondaries can't hit anything reliably anyway.  

WG really screwed anyone that had any of the aforementioned 3 ships and needs to fix it.

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MA is all about getting in there and mixing it up.  Gotta choose you moments....be ready for them...and when they present themselves...you're all in:

 

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4 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

MA is all about getting in there and mixing it up.  Gotta choose you moments....be ready for them...and when they present themselves...you're all in:

 

Nice work @Soshi_Sone.

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The only secondary skill that's really useful to take on Massachusetts is the range extension.  Otherwise, they have good base accuracy (which was unaffected by the rework and is still better than the buffed German base accuracy) and a high rate of fire, so they do fine on their own.  Aside from that, go for a more or less standard BB build.  Concealment is a must, and the fast recharge on the heal means that the extra heal skill is pretty useful.  You can actually get a lot of use out of deadeye, since Massa has poor dispersion - meaning that a percentage reduction decreases dispersion by a larger amount than it would for a ship with good dispersion.

My recommended captain build would be Gun Feeder, PT/Vigilance/Grease the Gears (pick one - I'd probably do Vigilance), Adrenaline Rush, Concealment Expert, Deadeye, Emergency Repair Expert, Long-Range Secondaries

You can still do a full secondary build, but it's not going to be optimal - and it never really was, even pre-rework.

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18 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

MA is all about getting in there and mixing it up.  Gotta choose you moments....be ready for them...and when they present themselves...you're all in:

Nope.  You're about 50% in from what she was before.  The reason I bought Mass was because of secondaries.  Loved the brawl play style.

That is no longer a play style in this game.  If you can't hit the enemy ships, you can't damage them blah blah blah.

Mass used to be WAY better and more fun than N. Carolina and Alabama.   Now,,,, not so much. 

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i like Mass, never got to play her as a 2ndary ship, but when compared with N Carolina my only other US BB at tier, I get hits more consistently and seem to hit harder..  I am not having alot of luck with NC..

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just last night, my Massa got 3k dmg with good aim on broadside NC from 15km away.

good job. I think Tirpitz is way better now.

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I love Mass it's a beast,  if a NC is broadside I get citadels. With the rework the secondaries accuracy aren't badly effected and the main guns get that reload buff when in secondary range. Pick your moments to push like Soshi_Sone in the video,  use Islands to close the distance with protection or to exit from danger.

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9 hours ago, WellyCoaster said:

I love Mass it's a beast,  if a NC is broadside I get citadels.

When you sink a ship they are destroyed.

I mean....no offense, but uhhh...you're not saying anything here in support of what you're saying. You can use ANY ship and "get citadels" against a broadside NC, it's not exclusive to Massachusetts.

9 hours ago, WellyCoaster said:

With the rework the secondaries accuracy aren't badly effected and the main guns get that reload buff when in secondary range.

"Aren't badly effected"?! Did you seriously just say this?! Ok, then, explain THESE values, please. 

(Hit Rate Percentage Testing. Using a battleship without "improved dispersion" vs Tier 9 Yugumo, at range 8.5km and closing to point-blank range, every time. firing main batteries whenever possible. Same map, approx. same kill time 1min 40s REGARDLESS OF MAIN BATTERY RELOAD BOOST OR NOT, 10 tests each)
All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 10.2%, 14.4%, 10.6%, 11.4%, 11.3%, 11.5%, 9.6%, 12.5%, 15.2%, 8.3%
Average = approx. 11.5%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 10.7% ->14.8% (so Hitrate Percentage Range is basically this. the lower values are added up separately from the higher values and divided accordingly. Basically, the higher percentage indicates engine loss on DD. immobile DD = more hits. So your TRUE average is actually the lower end.)

And before anyone asks, YES, I was firing main batteries AND secondaries for these tests. Just AP, I didn't want to blap the DD before I could test secondaries, obviously.

So yeah, a measly 10% hitrate (11.5% if we're being generous!) on secondaries with a battleship without "improved dispersion", full secondaries build btw. That's just....*chef's kiss* SO good. /s

I will test it on a battleship with USN improved dispersion next and post those results here.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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20 minutes ago, WellyCoaster said:

Wow, I'll just shut up.

Yeah, the low hit rate percentages hurt to look at, I know. Anyways, I'll test with Oklahoma next, same scenario, same Yugumo bot, same distance basically, Oklahoma has slower main battery but more accurate secondaries, so we'll see how that goes. give me a few mins, and I'll compile the data from those tests!

Nothing against anyone of course, I just don't want WG getting the wrong idea when it comes to secondaries performance, frankly.

 

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I'm looking forward to the tests and the results.

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11 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Yeah, the low hit rate percentages hurt to look at, I know. Anyways, I'll test with Oklahoma next, same scenario, same Yugumo bot, same distance basically, Oklahoma has slower main battery but more accurate secondaries, so we'll see how that goes. give me a few mins, and I'll compile the data from those tests!

Nothing against anyone of course, I just don't want WG getting the wrong idea when it comes to secondaries performance, frankly.

 

i did a little testing with one of the german bb's in a training room, just trying to measure the damage performance but the variability of fires got in the way.  i stayed at basically max 2ndary range and just let them do the work...

in the end i like how they perform in narai at least on scharn and gneis haven't tried other ships, though nelson has surprised from time to time.  I didn't get to play with the old 2ndaries as they required more skill points than i even now still don't have so never got to try mass with the old 2nds...

 

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Ok, so first of all....average kill time has NOT changed much, it's almost the same, approaching 1 min 30s, maybe a TOUCH more or so, up to about 1 min 45s. VERY similar setup, engagement distances, main battery performance and whatnot in this given timeframe. And of course, I manually target the Yugumo each and every time, so no worries about that!

Ok, so here's the next set of data (this time, for the Improved Dispersion Battleship secondaries (same build, same scenario, same basically everything, same bot, same map, same engagement range, yadda yadda)

Hit rate percentage for Improved Dispersion secondaries (-40% dispersion baked in, Oklahoma vs Yugumo, 8.3km engagement range for secondaries, main battery firing whenever possible)

All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 21.7%, 14.7%, 13.5%, 14.7%, 18.2%, 22.9%, 10.8%, 22.4%, 21.5%, 23.9%
Average = approx. 18.4%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 14.4% -> 22.5%

For comparison purposes, here's the previous results...(on California with same build, similar secondary reload times (Oklahoma's is still somewhat better) same scenario, virtually same engagement range +0.2km, similar main battery hits, timeframes, same Yugumo bot, etc, etc. )

(Sidenote: YES, even with the different reload times (34.2s vs 38s), the number of main battery hits are basically the same, dependent on player accuracy. And I hit the DD a few times each test. CQC's Main battery reload boost is NOT MAKING UP FOR THE LOSS IN SECONDARIES ACCURACY, by ANY stretch, based on my findings.)

All Secondaries Skills No IFHE: 10.2%, 14.4%, 10.6%, 11.4%, 11.3%, 11.5%, 9.6%, 12.5%, 15.2%, 8.3%
Average = approx. 11.5%
Hitrate Percentage Range = 10.7% ->14.8%

So as you can see.... a couple outliers in terms of accuracy (high and low-end), but this is definitely better, of course it is. However, is it REALLY "good enough" for what is literally what is considered a "USN secondaries battleship"? We're not even talking German BBs here, we're talking USN -40% dispersion baked in secondaries here. THE BEST you can get in terms of accuracy. And again, may I remind you, that the HIGH END of the hit rate range means that pretty much every time in those cases, that DD lost its engines. (immobile DD = more hits). So in reality....it's about like, 5-10% more secondaries hit rate than a battleship without that improved secondaries dispersion....WITH main battery fire added in, so....

No, I can't say that's good enough. Not at all. these hit rates need to practically DOUBLE. From 10% to 20% for non-improved dispersion BBs, and from 20% to 40% for improved dispersion BBs. and for German BBs, I'd say in the middle, around 30% hit rate, since they at least get improved penetration values on their secondaries. However, penetration means nothing if you're not hitting.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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On 2/18/2021 at 9:11 AM, Qilang said:

just played her for few games, her main guns are all over the place. just suck.

I think concealment is a must for this ship. secondary is overrated by a mile.

  Sorry, I laughed.  The reviews on Mass described her guns as being very slopy but the secondaries were what made her shine.  That was pre captain skill rework.  So now the secondaries are not like before.  They act more like her main guns now. All over the place.  The main guns are still the same I guess.

  Those used to keep DDs away, but not anymore.  They can come right up and give you an Eskimo kiss

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1 hour ago, SKurj said:

I didn't get to play with the old 2ndaries as they required more skill points than i even now still don't have so never got to try mass with the old 2nds...

That is such a shame, pre-Rework Massachusetts secondaries were GLORIOUS! But here's the dispersion numbers at 11.3km max range, full secondaries build right now:

Max Dispersion at 11.3km using ISBA (-35% dispersion buff) = 200m

If we take off ISBA, and work from there, the ORIGINAL dispersion with the -60% buff should be....

Max Dispersion at 11.3km using Manual Secondaries (-60% dispersion buff) = 123.2m

So yep, Massachusetts GAINED like nearly 77m more dispersion (almost a destroyer's length comparing to USS Benson at 106.8m long), and that hurts quite a bit, in terms of secondaries hit rate percentages....

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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11 hours ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

That is such a shame, pre-Rework Massachusetts secondaries were GLORIOUS! But here's the dispersion numbers at 11.3km max range, full secondaries build right now:

Max Dispersion at 11.3km using ISBA (-35% dispersion buff) = 200m

If we take off ISBA, and work from there, the ORIGINAL dispersion with the -60% buff should be....

Max Dispersion at 11.3km using Manual Secondaries (-60% dispersion buff) = 123.2m

So yep, Massachusetts GAINED like nearly 77m more dispersion (almost a destroyer's length comparing to USS Benson at 106.8m long), and that hurts quite a bit, in terms of secondaries hit rate percentages....

Calm down Meatball head!

image.png.ec43905a9254a1132f8ac801566062e0.png

 

Joking!

To be fair, while there's been a hit, to say that secondaries are dead as so many do these days is a bit hyperbolic - I still have a blast playing my secondary specced ships, and haven't bothered changing my/their playstyle!  Be a bit more cautious on the approach, cover is (IMO) a must.  And as you enter secondary range, Massa's main battery really begins to shine!

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6 hours ago, crazyeightyfive said:

Calm down Meatball head!

image.png.ec43905a9254a1132f8ac801566062e0.png

 

Joking!

To be fair, while there's been a hit, to say that secondaries are dead as so many do these days is a bit hyperbolic - I still have a blast playing my secondary specced ships, and haven't bothered changing my/their playstyle!  Be a bit more cautious on the approach, cover is (IMO) a must.  And as you enter secondary range, Massa's main battery really begins to shine!

STOP!!!! DON'T CALL ME MEATBALL HEAD!!! 

Image result for sailor moon cry gif

I never said secondaries were DEAD, per se, and OBVIOUSLY you would play those ships the SAME way as before....buuuut I mean, when you see the dispersion values now vs prior, and THEN you see such pathetic secondaries hit rates as 10% for BBs without improved dispersion and like 20% for USN secondaries BBs (this data is in above posts), it's clear that secondaries accuracy needs to be buffed. At the moment, secondaries are NOT reliably dealing supplementary damage as they should (and that's their job), and really, the best use of secondaries atm is....you guessed it, proccing that conditional main battery reload boost. Which frankly, is a LAME use for secondaries right now.

Anyways (I know you said calm down buuuuut I gotta post this one!), you've got the dispersion data for a USN Secondaries BB with that -40% dispersion buff baked in, take this data for a BB WITHOUT that baked-in dispersion buff! (I love WoWs Fitting Tool btw, it's a godsend for stuff like this <3)

Shikishima (no dispersion buff baked into secondaries) at 11.6km secondary range with full secondaries build minus IFHE

Current max dispersion with ISBA (-35% dispersion buff): 343m

Original max dispersion with Manual Secondaries (-60% dispersion buff): 211m

And again, for reference, Tier X Gearing is 119m in length.

So basically, a 25% dispersion buff drop (MS to ISBA) actually amounts to 38.5% more max dispersion. It definitely correlates to a big drop in accuracy, no question. A bit TOO big of a drop. and let's face it, what ARE you hitting with a dispersion of like 343m?! Ouch.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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:cap_popcorn:

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I think this was an intentional nerf, since Massachusetts was overperforming despite being very widely held. 

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