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ArIskandir

Request to change the Spotting damage mechanic (at least for Ranked)

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Where to start to make some sense?

As is the experience of any Cruiser or DD playing the objective (meaning, playing "up there" contesting the caps and actually trying to get "things done"), you bust your a$$, constantly risking your ship, many times for meager rewards (in terms of XP) but very determinant in terms of achieving Victory. Meanwhile, some BB Muppet that never left the spawn is taking advantage of all the spotting you generate and farms easy damage. In general terms I don't care too much if they move up or not, having an accurate BB laying support fire might be a strong asset for the team (best case), what I do care is that their job is better rewarded than mine, they collect more rewards for far less effort and risk. In the context of a Ranked match, where the XP earned is determinant to progress or not, there's no need to be Sherlock Holmes to realize the unfairness of the situation.

What I propose is the XP derived from damage done when you are not directly spotting the target, to be divided between shooter and spotter. Cut the XP of the shooter in HALF and award the other half to the spotter(s) as well deserved payment for their services. The current reward scheme is not only meager but unfair. 

Rant warning

Spoiler

I DON'T WANT MUPPETS TO PROFIT FROM MY EFFORT

 Alternatively, enable a key that turns on/off radio comms. I prefer to go off grid than feeding XP to a guy that doesn't deserve it. 

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I've got a better idea. Make dead eye give 50% of XP earned while it's active go to the spotter.

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Just now, Rouxi said:

I've got a better idea. Make dead eye give 50% of XP earned while it's active go to the spotter.

This goes beyond Dead Eye and is not restricted to having the skill or not.

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1 minute ago, ArIskandir said:

This goes beyond Dead Eye and is not restricted to having the skill or not.

I know. What you're proposing is how it works in WOT. For some unknown reason WG didn't bring that mechanic over.

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If memory serves it used to in very early Ranked that a cap, a bit of spotting and damage as a DD would be pretty much a saved star. WG tweaked the system to what it is now, which indeed favours damage as a form of saving your star.

On the other hand you could argue that playing cruiser or DD in Ranked gives you the tools to influence objectives, thus increasing your chances at victory.

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7 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

On the other hand you could argue that playing cruiser or DD in Ranked gives you the tools to influence objectives, thus increasing your chances at victory.

Precisely... If you win. But if things go the other way, you end up empty handed  while the muppet than never risked anything ends up with more XP than you.

Typical scenario is when you spend most of the match contesting the "shared" cap, you don't get any XP from the cap because you haven't taken it, your damage opportunities are limited because you need to balance preserving concealment/survivability, the bulk of your "income" turns out to be spotting but the shooter gets the fat check while you get scraps, if the match is lost you get screwed.

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Rant warning

  Reveal hidden contents

I DON'T WANT MUPPETS TO PROFIT FROM MY EFFORT

 Alternatively, enable a key that turns on/off radio comms. I prefer to go off grid than feeding XP to a guy that doesn't deserve it. 

I like the idea of a boat gaining XP by the amount of time spent spotting (and possibly multiplied by the number of other boats that can shoot what you are spotting) rather than the damage caused to it.  This would reward the spotting boats/planes on their effort rather than the quality of your team and their ability to damage it.

In conjunction, XP reward for the time spent capping (or in the cap denying points to the other team etc) instead of XP reward simply for assisting or capturing an area.

Your rant shows some of the toxicity of ranked though.  You might be serious, or just really PO'd at your rank teams.  But shutting off your ability to spot to hamper your team just so they fail harder is pretty much the same level of toxicity I expect in ranked matches!

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1 hour ago, ArIskandir said:

Where to start to make some sense?

As is the experience of any Cruiser or DD playing the objective (meaning, playing "up there" contesting the caps and actually trying to get "things done"), you bust your a$$, constantly risking your ship, many times for meager rewards (in terms of XP) but very determinant in terms of achieving Victory. Meanwhile, some BB Muppet that never left the spawn is taking advantage of all the spotting you generate and farms easy damage. In general terms I don't care too much if they move up or not, having an accurate BB laying support fire might be a strong asset for the team (best case), what I do care is that their job is better rewarded than mine, they collect more rewards for far less effort and risk. In the context of a Ranked match, where the XP earned is determinant to progress or not, there's no need to be Sherlock Holmes to realize the unfairness of the situation.

What I propose is the XP derived from damage done when you are not directly spotting the target, to be divided between shooter and spotter. Cut the XP of the shooter in HALF and award the other half to the spotter(s) as well deserved payment for their services. The current reward scheme is not only meager but unfair. 

Rant warning

  Reveal hidden contents

I DON'T WANT MUPPETS TO PROFIT FROM MY EFFORT

 Alternatively, enable a key that turns on/off radio comms. I prefer to go off grid than feeding XP to a guy that doesn't deserve it. 

The problem is that cruisers and dds have had their primary assets: mobility and speed , denied by poorly designed game mechanics which include citadel damage pinhatas. 

Battleships do not push as a rule because they suffer from another poorly designed game mechanic: HE and fire damage ignoring their armor altogether plus the fact WG put a massive amount of ship hitpoints on the superstructure. 

 

1. For this to be fixed both the heavy and light ships have to give up something they love to gain something they want. 

2. Cruisers and DD's need to give up the HE/Fire damage spam output. BB's need to give up the citadel pinhata party. 

 

1= Imagine if citadels instead of doing super-damage did just ~20% more than a regular pen hit ... but a citadel hit would severely debuff their engine power for 1 minute. Each ship would have up to 4 citadel hit timers active, each citadel hit removing a% of engine power based on shell caliber (for sheer simplicity, apply the shell caliber in inches as a % ..aka a single Shikishima 20 inch shell hitting another ship's citadel takes out 20% of its engine power). If a 5th citadel hit or more is scored when there are already 4 active citadel hits on a ship then it will replace the lowest citadel timer with its own.

Citadel engine debuff cannot be repaired or damage controlled out. You have to wait the timer. There will be no special abilities or flags or nothing to reduce this penalty timer. 

For example, a ship has 4 citadel timers active, all caused by 16 inch AP shells. This ship has an engine power debuff active on it total of 64% (16x4). The lowest citadel timer has 10 seconds left. Shikishima hits this ship with a single shell to the citadel... that makes the 10s citadel timer be replaced by a fresh 1 minute timer of 20% debuff. Ship is now under 68% engine debuff. 

--- This will allow cruisers to regain their mobility and use their speed to maneuver and fight. 

2= Fire will also cease to be a damage DOT and instead become a potent debuff like citadel hits are. Fires will have a different effect based on where the fire is. Superstructure fires will increase the ship's main gun dispersion by, the same shell-inch-caliber-to-% ratio. Aka a single fire on superstructure caused by a 8 inch gun increases dispersion by 8% while the fire is active.  

Fire to bow increases reload time of forward main guns. Fire to aft increases aft main guns reload time. Again , by % based on caliber. 

Effect remains as long as fire is active. You can remove fire with damage control. 

3- Superstructures on all ships should be removed as part of the ship's hull/hitpoint pools and become an external module like main gun turrets are. This will allow superstructure to have its own health pool that does not count towards the destruction of the ship. Like main guns, the superstructure would be able to be knocked out and destroyed if enough damage is piled on it. A knocked out or destroyed superstructure removes the ship's ability to send or receive targeting team spotting information. This means that a DD with superstructure blown off spotting 4 red ships will send to team their location info only on MINIMAP...but team cannot see and target/fire visually upon them. 

Icons of ships spotted on minimap but the spotter has superstructure disabled will show on minimap as radar type contact icons with an X inside them so team can know why they arent coming up on the visual screen. 

 

With these changes you have cruisers and DDs regain their mobility as they do not need to fear instablap from some BB 25km away. No need nor reason to hug islands either as their HE wont sink ships unless they penetrate the armor and the best HE is useful for is to attack ship classes of smaller size or to wreck superstructure and external components ..and to debuff other ships fighting abilities. The KILLING ability of cruisers will come from their AP and torpedoes if they have them. All heavy cruisers can pen battleship armor..some from long some from medium and all can from close range..the trick is the angle...and thats where their maneuverability and speed come into play. 

BB's don't need to fear he/fire spam and can use their armor effectively. Now they can TANK and push. 

The game becomes one of teamwork as BBs can still hurt cruisers bad but now the cruisers can work their armor angles and speed to get close. Cruisers can hurt BBs but not from spam..but from severe debuffs and well placed AP. Destroyers can now sail along with cruisers and receive their AA support. All classes can citadel and debuff each other. 

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46 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

snip

This is all interesting but it doesn't address the issue of the disparity in the rewards.

Which ever role a players want to assume, it is up to them. But the rewards must scale accordingly to their contribution.

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1 hour ago, Glamorboy said:

I like the idea of a boat gaining XP by the amount of time spent spotting (and possibly multiplied by the number of other boats that can shoot what you are spotting) rather than the damage caused to it.  This would reward the spotting boats/planes on their effort rather than the quality of your team and their ability to damage it.

In conjunction, XP reward for the time spent capping (or in the cap denying points to the other team etc) instead of XP reward simply for assisting or capturing an area.

Interesting ideas and more fair and balanced, but idk how easy they would be to account for and implement. 

1 hour ago, Glamorboy said:

Your rant shows some of the toxicity of ranked though.  You might be serious, or just really PO'd at your rank teams.  But shutting off your ability to spot to hamper your team just so they fail harder is pretty much the same level of toxicity I expect in ranked matches!

Let me give you some context. I had this match yesterday, the comp was CV, 3 BBs, Edin, my Balty and AFK DD. For the first 7-8 minutes of the match, I was the only ship to move out of the spawn grid, I capped my natural cap and moved on to try to contest their cap, later on the Edin moved to contest the shared cap. I ended up fancing a DD, a Cruiser, a BB and the CV, all by myself. Meanwhile our 3 BBs where nowhere to be seen, a guy in a NC playing behind the carrier managed to land some HE on a Bajie I had just forced to DCP... bravo, permafire damage for him. Later it managed some lucky citadels on a Hipper I just forced to turn to avoid my citadels, more easy damage. In the end I was forced to turn tail and flee for my life because as you can imagine I was the sole receptor of the CV attention, by match's end and at 1500 hp I had to seek refuge near my CV (because the CV was the nearest/most forward friendly ship) to preserve my points. I ended up with some cap points, about half a DD worth of damage, about 1/4 of a Hipper and some chip damage in a Bajie. The NC got half a Bajie and half a Hipper, from my spotting and presumably some other damage on other BBs thanks to the Edin and the CV on the other side. The NC ended first saving its star, playing all the match behind the CV, profiting from other's labors. 

 

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33 minutes ago, ArIskandir said:

Interesting ideas and more fair and balanced, but idk how easy they would be to account for and implement. 

Let me give you some context. I had this match yesterday, the comp was CV, 3 BBs, Edin, my Balty and AFK DD. For the first 7-8 minutes of the match, I was the only ship to move out of the spawn grid, I capped my natural cap and moved on to try to contest their cap, later on the Edin moved to contest the shared cap. I ended up fancing a DD, a Cruiser, a BB and the CV, all by myself. Meanwhile our 3 BBs where nowhere to be seen, a guy in a NC playing behind the carrier managed to land some HE on a Bajie I had just forced to DCP... bravo, permafire damage for him. Later it managed some lucky citadels on a Hipper I just forced to turn to avoid my citadels, more easy damage. In the end I was forced to turn tail and flee for my life because as you can imagine I was the sole receptor of the CV attention, by match's end and at 1500 hp I had to seek refuge near my CV (because the CV was the nearest/most forward friendly ship) to preserve my points. I ended up with some cap points, about half a DD worth of damage, about 1/4 of a Hipper and some chip damage in a Bajie. The NC got half a Bajie and half a Hipper, from my spotting and presumably some other damage on other BBs thanks to the Edin and the CV on the other side. The NC ended first saving its star, playing all the match behind the CV, profiting from other's labors. 

 

Yeah I won't hold my breath waiting for them to change, but to me, it makes sense.  Some "x" amount of XP, times the number of seconds you are spotting, and perhaps some multiplier depending on the number of ships it's helping.  

Same with CAPS, the moment you enter, you get "y" amount of XP times the number of seconds in the cap, regardless if you cap.  Perhaps some small bonus if you actually capture or assist to capture it.  Perhaps some bonus depending on how many points that CAP generates for your team during the battle.

 

As far as your rant (and context), yeah, I get it.  With 7v7 everyone's efforts are amplified.  So if you get a few potatoes in a ranked game, it feels like 50% of your team, a lot more than with a 12v12 random where they can get lost in the masses.  I LOVE clan battles, hate ranked.  So I get your frustrations, ranked brings out the worst in all of us.

But again, for the save the star, perhaps it should be a certain threshold of XP.  If you and your buddy have a MONSTER game, score 2000 XP and 2005 XP, and the rest of your team has 250, I think both players should save the star, not just the guy that eecked out 5 more XP.  Some matches might have multiple people save a star, other matches might not have anyone save the star.  It would just depend on whether you played well for your team.

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6 minutes ago, Glamorboy said:

But again, for the save the star, perhaps it should be a certain threshold of XP.  If you and your buddy have a MONSTER game, score 2000 XP and 2005 XP, and the rest of your team has 250, I think both players should save the star, not just the guy that eecked out 5 more XP.  Some matches might have multiple people save a star, other matches might not have anyone save the star.  It would just depend on whether you played well for your team.

I've no real issue with the save a star mechanic, my problem here is how the earnings are distributed. Given that shooting without direct LoS is a team effort, the rewards should be distributed among the team, both shooter and spotter. As it is now the shooter gets its full rewards and the spotter just some scrap reward. As a principle, a shooter that isn't spotting its target shouldn't get the same rewards as a shooter that is directly spotting its target. 

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4 hours ago, ArIskandir said:

What I propose is the XP derived from damage done when you are not directly spotting the target, to be divided between shooter and spotter. Cut the XP of the shooter in HALF and award the other half to the spotter(s) as well deserved payment for their services. The current reward scheme is not only meager but unfair. 

I'm 100% in favor of improving XP for being the spotter. I do think 50/50 is a bit much, and I do like the idea of having DE give it a penalty, or perhaps something just generally related to the range of the person shooting (further away = more XP for the spotter, perhaps capping at 50/50 if the shooter is at max range?)

Anyway, I absolutely love the idea and I think it would reward and encourage teamwork, not just in ranked either - but across the board. There are definitely matches when (double top tier CVs for instance,) just surviving as a DD and contributing what you can is an enormous achievement. 

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10 minutes ago, TheArc said:

I'm 100% in favor of improving XP for being the spotter. I do think 50/50 is a bit much, and I do like the idea of having DE give it a penalty, or perhaps something just generally related to the range of the person shooting (further away = more XP for the spotter, perhaps capping at 50/50 if the shooter is at max range?)

Anyway, I absolutely love the idea and I think it would reward and encourage teamwork, not just in ranked either - but across the board. There are definitely matches when (double top tier CVs for instance,) just surviving as a DD and contributing what you can is an enormous achievement. 

maybe 50/50 is a bit much, probably it would need to be further adjusted for CVs, but it has to be something significant to promote healthy team play (as you well say). As the game is set now, you are promoted to be the back line sniper, the guy spamming behind the island or from smoke, not the guy doing the spotting and allowing for that to happen. 

Edited by ArIskandir
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This is why I like the reward system in CBs. Everyone gets rewarded at a flat rate.   I get why they can't carry it over to ranked.  But you are right there is no reason why a lazy sniping BB should get massive rewards while the ships taking the actual risks and responsibility for achieving a win get so little reward. 

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I'd be happy to see more rewards for spotting, as I tend to lose in a BB when I don't get any. Anything to incentivize spotting.  I just want to win games.

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