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JohnPJones

how do you make a modern ship out of a WWII DD?

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well this is how!
https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2021/02/14/wu-chin-iii-taiwans-remarkable-rebuilt-wwii-destroyers/?fbclid=IwAR2bhiX924fObmOBPI74ny93BvhX4ivM-EGcdDaEDv6ky9cS_-pnleUT7Qs

i won't lie i like stuff like this more than learning about new ships. projects like this, and that cuban 'frigate' trawler fascinate me.

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the Wu Chin article got me thinking...
assuming the political will is there, wonder if taiwan could get around their 24 DDG/FFG limit by purchasing LCS/MMSC hulls, and then out fitting them with locally produced weapons and systems and label them as corvettes or something else.
imagine something like a 76mm up front, 2 of those triple SM box launchers where the 30mm guns would be, seahawk helo, and a phalnax where SEARAM is, and of course their 8 hisung feng IIIs
not a great option, but not a bad one considering their situation.
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3 hours ago, JohnPJones said:
the Wu Chin article got me thinking...
assuming the political will is there, wonder if taiwan could get around their 24 DDG/FFG limit by purchasing LCS/MMSC hulls, and then out fitting them with locally produced weapons and systems and label them as corvettes or something else.
imagine something like a 76mm up front, 2 of those triple SM box launchers where the 30mm guns would be, seahawk helo, and a phalnax where SEARAM is, and of course their 8 hisung feng IIIs
not a great option, but not a bad one considering their situation.

that will be if the US is willing to sell those ships. Given that the US Navy is retiring its 6 year LCS, maybe those can get  sold off to Taiwan rather than being scrapped, given that the most secretive US navy tech is removed of course.

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They do it on the other side too, for just as long.

 

This 

 

yKvGkFN.jpg

 

is based on this ship design.

 

sKdmZGM.jpg

 

And this,

 

1E3vgdB.jpg

 

is the very same ship as this.

 

zapwZsc.jpg

 

You can see the torpedo tubes replaced with antiship missile launchers. 

 

In the Luda class, they added a SAM missile launcher with eight missiles to replace a nest of AA guns.    If you count the number of antiship missiles that ship has, its sixteen.  The picture at the top, which shows the destroyer Zhanjiang, this ship was only formally retired in the middle of 2020. She was probably in reserve and training status for some years now, took her final journey and mission last year before her formal decommissioning.  After this she is said to be headed to a museum.  Her name will be passed to a new Type 052D destroyer.

 

mI3M1AC.jpg

 

The ship has a total of three fire control radars.  The big one on top of the superstructure is used for the two main guns.  The stealth turrets of the two 100mm guns contrast with the rest of the ship, and this is because these turrets were originally meant for another, much more modern, ship.  This fire control radar is triple purpose.  It has AA, it can direct the guns at a surface target, it can lock surface targets for the anitship missiles within the radar horizon.

 

Below it is a smaller fire control radar, and its the same radar you see on PLAN CIWS.  Its also capable of both air and surface targets but it tracks faster.  It serves three 37mm AA turrets, each with two guns.  

 

The back has 8 missiles based on the French Croatale.  Near it is the dedicated guidance radar for the missiles and it also has a TV camera fitted on the other side while the other side has the radar antenna.  The unit can also track visually with the TV camera and guide the missiles to the target in case if the radar is interfered.  

 

The three fire control radars means the guns and the missiles can engage separately, compared to the Taiwan destroyer which is restricted by the single STIR radar to engage only one target at a time, except for the Phalanx which remains independent.  

 

There is a search radar on top of the second mast but there is also a longer ranged VHF radar between it and the second funnel.  

 

Going back to the first mast, you see modern navigation and weather radars, but there is a datalink or SATCOM on top.   This ship might be able to engage over the horizon with the antiship missiles if a plane or satellite passed targeting information.  

 

With the sharply detailed picture, you can also pick out electronic warfare units.  

 

Edited by Eisennagel

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The really valid question isn't "How," but rather "Why?"  Taiwan did it only because China has made it difficult for them to get anyone to sell them new ships, while they don't have the capacity to build their own.  China did it because they want the maximum number of hulls afloat to make their navy look bigger on paper and at the time modernizing existing ships was faster than building replacements.

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4 hours ago, Murotsu said:

The really valid question isn't "How," but rather "Why?"  Taiwan did it only because China has made it difficult for them to get anyone to sell them new ships, while they don't have the capacity to build their own.  China did it because they want the maximum number of hulls afloat to make their navy look bigger on paper and at the time modernizing existing ships was faster than building replacements.

China used to have a bottleneck building new warships. So to compensate for this they were big into upgrading older ships, which in turn slowed new construction even more. (The same yards doing new construction were doing the refits, and they didn't have enough skilled labor for both at the same time)

China identified the problem and corrected it. Now they've got new warships piling up at their very few naval bases. Now the problem is having useful bases for them.

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7 hours ago, Murotsu said:

The really valid question isn't "How," but rather "Why?"  Taiwan did it only because China has made it difficult for them to get anyone to sell them new ships, while they don't have the capacity to build their own.  China did it because they want the maximum number of hulls afloat to make their navy look bigger on paper and at the time modernizing existing ships was faster than building replacements.

 

Taiwan is the sixth largest ship building nation in terms of market share.  

 

As for China, the Neustrashimy design was handed to them from the era when Sino-Soviet relations were strong and before they got soured.  When that relationship got soured, the flow of technology got cut, and then you have the Great Leap Forward that wrecked the country followed by the Cultural Revolution that persecuted anyone who had the slightest sign of a brain.  So China kept the few Soviet supplied ships, and manufactured based on the Soviet designs that were handed to them until the beginning of the '90s, when the first 052 came out.

Edited by Eisennagel

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18 hours ago, JohnPJones said:
the Wu Chin article got me thinking...
assuming the political will is there, wonder if taiwan could get around their 24 DDG/FFG limit by purchasing LCS/MMSC hulls, and then out fitting them with locally produced weapons and systems and label them as corvettes or something else.
imagine something like a 76mm up front, 2 of those triple SM box launchers where the 30mm guns would be, seahawk helo, and a phalnax where SEARAM is, and of course their 8 hisung feng IIIs
not a great option, but not a bad one considering their situation.

 

Why?  Tuo Chiang class already does the same thing.

 

cw0VLlj.jpg

 

Its got Oto 76mm gun and Phalanx.  Got 16 antiship missiles, 8 of them are supersonic.  Its better armed than the LCS/MMSC and for a lower price.  

 

Might be a surprise for many, but Taiwan is the sixth largest shipbuilding nation in the world.  The top five are China, S. Korea, Japan, Philippines and Vietnam.  Taiwan has more shipbuilding facility than the United States which has dramatically shriveled over the years.  

 

One problem with the LCS/MMSC is that many parts of it are not Made in USA.  Many parts are sourced from Europe such as its main radar, engines and gearboxes, which are from Germany, and the Germans have too many economic interests in China that makes them easy to pressure.   Tuo Chiang relies on indigenous technologies that go around these pressure points.   Taiwan getting more ambitious with their indigenous ship designs with frigates, destroyers and LPDs next.  

 

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1 hour ago, Eisennagel said:

 

Why?  Tuo Chiang class already does the same thing.

 

cw0VLlj.jpg

 

Its got Oto 76mm gun and Phalanx.  Got 16 antiship missiles, 8 of them are supersonic.  Its better armed than the LCS/MMSC and for a lower price.  

 

Might be a surprise for many, but Taiwan is the sixth largest shipbuilding nation in the world.  The top five are China, S. Korea, Japan, Philippines and Vietnam.  Taiwan has more shipbuilding facility than the United States which has dramatically shriveled over the years.  

 

One problem with the LCS/MMSC is that many parts of it are not Made in USA.  Many parts are sourced from Europe such as its main radar, engines and gearboxes, which are from Germany, and the Germans have too many economic interests in China that makes them easy to pressure.   Tuo Chiang relies on indigenous technologies that go around these pressure points.   Taiwan getting more ambitious with their indigenous ship designs with frigates, destroyers and LPDs next.  

 

lacking the SM loadout i suggested.
they do have some issues with that still.

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32 minutes ago, JohnPJones said:

lacking the SM loadout i suggested.
they do have some issues with that still.

 

SM needs a dedicated fire control radar.  That's going to add cost and weight.   If you use a multirole fire control radar like STIR, if you use the radar for gunnery you can't use it for AA.  If you use the radar for AA, you can't use it for gunnery.  It maybe multirole but it ain't multitasking.  

 

MMSC plans to use the active guided Block II ESSM.  This missile doesn't need a dedicated fire control radar and can be initially routed to the target using the ship's main radar, going actively seeking on its own in its terminal phase.    However, Taiwan has its own active seeking TK-3 SAMs that it plans on its own ships.  So a proposed MMSC for Taiwan would have to be modified for these which should not be a problem, unless there are too many hands in the cookie jar and someone wants to profit from selling ESSMs.  Taiwan develops their own ecosystem of weapons to render it sanctions proof and Congress proof.   They are already planning a frigate so a missile defense on the Tuo Chiang or Tuo Jiang isn't as necessary.    As for the corvette they already have signed contracts to build more and they already have a successive variant.  

 

cNbKKgD.jpg

 

lohBbCg.png

 

 

 

Edited by Eisennagel

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