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AdmiralThunder

Early results are in on new Italian BB's = Meh! (PVE Thread)

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So as I always do with these early access events I charged ahead and finished the week 1 tasks,  purchased bundles, etc... to get right through what was needed to get the early access stuff (ships, camo, flags, coal, FXP, etc...). Honestly I had very little to no interest in this line as I feared it would be a whole line of Roma's as I followed along with the info WG released on them. I absolutely detest Roma so a whole line of them = yuck.

However, as I always do every line to T10 whether I like the ships or not (always good to have diversified fleet for mission tasks, flake events, etc...) I decided to whale what I could and avoid having to grind ships I expected not to like (the use of my Doubloon hoard was well worth it to avoid having to grind out this line other than the T10). Good decision as it turns out. :Smile_veryhappy: OMG do these new BB's define MEH! Just so bad and they truly do feel, for the most part, like a line of Roma's (same flaws and such) that just have SAP instead of HE. :fish_palm:

Will give a brief review of the T5/T6/T8/T9 below after a few general line comments. The T4 came out even earlier as a Twitch reward and has been discussed so not wasting time on that. The T7 is the reward for finishing all the Part 1 4 Week Directives so need to wait on that. But I can talk about the others FWIW to anyone reading...

General:

  • SAP - I am NOT impressed. It has worked pretty good on the Italian Cruisers but honestly it seems pretty lackluster on the BB's. Why? It should be monstrous but frankly it is pretty disappointing even vs DD's. Did WG do a last second nerf to it or something? Don't know but the BB's do less damage with SAP than the Cruisers do. It has just been very poor so far. 
  • AP - Weak!
  • Reloads - Too :etc_swear: long on most
  • Armor - Squishy squishy squishy. Nuff said.
  • AA - abysmal (even by current standards) and even useless vs Bot CV's. It is THAT bad. Even on the couple with somewhat average AA  the poor Italian range makes it useless.
  • Secondary's - the ONE thing that was a surprise and actually somewhat decent when I expected crap. While the 90MM ones have very poor pen there are a lot of them and they fire quite fast. They seem to do a decent job setting fires as well. The 120MM/135MM/152MM ones have ok pen and a reasonable ROF.  For "Co-op" where secondary builds are still viable they are "ok". Accuracy is pretty bad of course.
  • Main Gun Accuracy - ATROCIOUS! Couldn't hit a barn if the ship was inside of said barn while shooting. And that is with extremely short main gun range as well so you miss even when close.  The shells just go everywhere. Looks like a flock of pigeons in the park that got spooked and scatter into flight in all directions when you shoot. Once in a while you get a decent pattern but usually it is all over the place.
  • Overpens/Shatters/Bounces - just like with Roma this issue plagues the new Tech Tree BB's. SAP shatters and bounces a lot with no damage and the AP just overpens non stop.
  • Struggle to finish ships off. Even when you get a big hit these are not Dev Strike BB's. SAP isn't going to citadel outside of rare hits on extremely lightly armored CL's (and mainly lower tiers) and the AP is pretty weak damage wise with a tendency to overpen. So actually killing stuff unless it is already almost dead is hard in these. 
  • For all the people who blasted the new US BB's in the split at least they have good guns and some other good features to offset the bad (reload and speed). There is very little good really with these new Italian BB's (IMHO - YMMV)

As to each ship specifically...


T5 Conte Di Cavour:

Only 1 game in it and 1 game was enough. This is a port queen for flake events and any tasks where it would specifically help me do it easier and/or quicker. Sort of an average game for a T5 BB stat wise but it was mostly bots, and the game went almost the full 20 mins, so 58K and just 1 kill is nothing special. I even managed a 43% MBHR ( actually got close so even it couldn't miss) and still only got 58K damage which shows how poorly the shells perform if you do hit. This appears to be a Giulio Cesare without the accuracy (it is putrid) and with much less maneuverability.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - very tough bow in
  • 33 sec reload is too long
  • Brutal turret traverse (60 sec base)
  • Totally useless AA
  • Secondary guns are half way decent (18X1 120MM w/ 20MM pen and 6.8km possible range). Pretty good actually for a T5.
  • Lackluster maneuverability. Handles like a US Standard BB. 1 knot faster but less maneuverability (22knots/620m turn radius/12 sec rudder).
  • Concealment is ok (11.8km with CE)

Just a meh ship overall.

yTTfo9t.jpg


T6 Andrea Doria:

So far this one seems like it might be the best of the bunch (not counting T7 or T10 as no experience there yet). Only 1 game like the T5 but it actually went well and the ship felt like it might be halfway decent? Just RNG throwing me a bone or might it actually be a bright spot of the line? This ship is not the IRL Andrea Doria Italian BB. It is some kind of ship WG has made and called that (I believe they said based on upgrades made - proposed? - to the Conte Di Cavour class). Feels like a T6 Giulio Cesare with improved secondary.  This seems better than the T6  test ship WG used when looking at moving GC to T6 (it is an improved/buffed GC vs just putting GC at T6). 1 game was 81K with a kill in T7 MM.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - somewhat tanky bow in but not great and if the 26MM plates, instead of the 90MM strip, is hit you can be overmatched by 380MM+.
  • More reasonable 30 sec reload
  • Good turret traverse (36 sec base)
  • Not great but somewhat useable AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are "ok" (10X1 90MM + 4X3 135MM and 7.5km possible range). The 90MM are only fire starters but the 135MM's have enough pen and ROF to do damage.
  • Maneuverability is adequate. Nothing special but workable. It is the same as GC (27 knots w/ 640MM turn radius) but with an improved rudder vs GC (10.4 sec vs 13.0 sec).
  • Concealment is average.

Not an amazing ship but it seems 'ok" and better than the others I have played.

xL1KkuK.jpg


T8 Vittorio Veneto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

UGH! GAG! PUKE! It's Roma. Same hull, armor, guns, etc... Only real difference is Roma has HE that sucks and VV has SAP that is just slightly better than sucks. VV gets a 34 sec reload vs 30 sec on Roma for the privilege of that slightly better than sucks SAP. AP is just overpen overpen overpen overpen...ad nauseum. Couple other minor differences in stats but they are minor tweaks not major changes. 3 games in it and about the same stats as Roma (117 games). Not going over any pros/cons as like I said it's Roma with SAP and a little longer reload. ONE thing that is better on VV is the secondary guns. Same guns and #'s as on Roma but the 90MM's fire a bit faster and the 152MM's fire significantly faster so that is actually a big plus over Roma.

This ship is Roma and all the suck and bad that comes with it. And I swear I feel like that Roman standard mounted on the special camo is going to poke my eye out every time I play it the things ticks up so high (not as high on T9 :fish_palm:).

tFQmHmV.jpg


T9 Lepanto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

Had some small sliver of hope for this one but nope; it stinks too. It's Roma's big brother. Just meh in almost all ways. 4 games in it and pretty much Roma stats. Guns are horrendous as far as accuracy goes and are plagued with the classic Italian AP overpen overpen overpen overpen issue. 12X guns with SAP can do a little damage if you land some shells. Still not great but best SAP ship so far. 

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side although improved on overall from VV/Roma. Still squishy and takes a lot of damage but you can angle and tank some bow in.
  • LONG reload requiring MBM3 to get it down to 32.6 sec.
  • Good turret traverse (34.5 sec base)
  • Average AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are a slight step up from VV/Roma. Same stats gun types just a couple more of them. 12X2 90MM (fire starters only) and 6X3 152MM.
  • Maneuverability is kind of below average or just pushing into average. Lower end for T9 BB speed (29.5 knots) and turn radius (910MM) and above average rudder (13.3 sec).
  • Concealment is slightly below average at 13.4km.

This will be a long and miserable grind getting the XP needed for the T10. The T10 isn't due out until update 0.10.3 which is 2 down the road but not sure I can do the grind needed even with that much time? This might be a FXP to skip some/all of the grind ship?

Vmjg3Lv.jpg


So as said ^^^ FWIW and YMMV. 

These new BB's are exactly what I feared they would be = a whole line of Roma suckage. :fish_panic::fish_palm:

Edited by AdmiralThunder
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18 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

SAP - I am NOT impressed. It has worked pretty good on the Italian Cruisers but honestly it seems pretty lackluster on the BB's. Why? It should be monstrous but frankly it is pretty disappointing even vs DD's. Did WG do a last second nerf to it or something? Don't know but the BB's do less damage with SAP than the Cruisers do. It has just been very poor so far. 

IIRC BB SAP was changed to always overpen destroyers, just like BB AP.

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The damage vs DDs was toned down to 10% for SAP, same as overpenetrations. The higher alpha is supposed to make them a bit better than AP when targeting BBs though it's laughable; WG could have changed the rule to do 20-30% damage on DDs instead of dumping it into the same category as AP overpens, especially considering the bad accuracy of the line. Saying this as someone with thousands of DD battles, there's no need for even more pampering. Roma in contrast to you is a weird guilty pleasure of mine, so I was looking forward to seeing proper SAP in action as it was asked time and time again as a buff :fish_boom:.

As for my opinion on the line, purely stats wise it looks like again a very strong T10, with meh all the way there. 16 guns have a quality all of their own. Personally keeping my hopes up for Marco Polo as it rocks 16inchers and seems to be more accurate as well.

Edited by warheart1992

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I haven't checked the stats of all the early release ITA BBs, but VIII Vittorio Veneto has the same AP as Roma, who is a traditional BB.  The AP is very strong in terms of penetration.  The problem will be it's 381mm, where Overmatch benefits are a lot less in High Tier.

 

Battleship SAP doing less against DDs?  Knew that a while ago, a while back after AL Littorio's release, we had a thread in General Discussion about her test version, Impero, which was an SAP + Smoke test bed just like the ITA BBs you see now.  It was said that WG implemented a cap on Battleship SAP damage against Destroyers.

 

It is against Cruisers and Battleships where Battleship SAP is going to shine against because the damage will be more consistent.  It's kind of like RNBB HE, very useful, consistent damage, but you're not going to get Home Runs / Deleting Cruiser and larger threats with them like you would AP.

 

I knew going in that BB SAP would be strong and WG would do things to reign them in so it doesn't take over the game.  If you go into Fitting Tool and check their stats you'll see they pretty much all are 1.6 Sigma BBs.  A few have 33 or so seconds reload like Vittorio Veneto in Tier VIII.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I'm hoping that this is just initial impressions and that with more experience with these ships that they will become more playable.  I hated Minnesota at first, but came to understand the quirky play style.  While not my favorite, it is a fun ship to play.

 

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13 minutes ago, HamptonRoads said:

I'm hoping that this is just initial impressions and that with more experience with these ships that they will become more playable.  I hated Minnesota at first, but came to understand the quirky play style.  While not my favorite, it is a fun ship to play.

 

Was thinking the same but man I don't know. These are so bad. I didn't like the Italian Cruisers at 1st but still found some good in them and as you say eventually learned how to do well in them and now like them (T8+ anyway - rest suck). These are just ugh AND are so Roma like that I just don't see my view changing...:fish_boom:

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Thanks for the review @Admiral_Thunder.  I probably won't get to the event until this Friday at the earliest, so nice to have a heads up as to what to expect going forward.  Thanks again!

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36 minutes ago, Nevermore135 said:

IIRC BB SAP was changed to always overpen destroyers, just like BB AP.

 

36 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The damage vs DDs was toned down to 10% for SAP, same as overpenetrations. The higher alpha is supposed to make them a bit better than AP when targeting BBs though it's laughable; WG could have changed the rule to do 20-30% damage on DDs instead of dumping it into the same category as AP overpens, especially considering the bad accuracy of the line. Saying this as someone with thousands of DD battles, there's no need for even more pampering.

Therein lies a major issue...only AP was nerfed against DDs in every other line & HE still does full damage against DDs...even the RN BBs which usually have HE loaded 80+% of the time...

A BB that has only a 1/10th damage potential no matter what is loaded against a charging DD is the equivalent of bait...unless you got a crew w/you you're gonna be eating fishies every battle w/no way to even slightly discourage it.

50% instead of 20-30% would be fair...they need to be able to not only defend but actually be able to hunt DDs after the DDs torps pass by & the DD smokes up nearby (or get themselves trapped in a corner)...just like any other BB can just by switching to HE.

Having only a flat 10% damage option against them is ludicrous (heard about it when announced but never gave it a serious thought until now).

Edited by IfYouSeeKhaos

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1 hour ago, AdmiralThunder said:

(the use of my Doubloon hoard was well worth it to avoid having to grind out this line other than the T10)

Do you mind if I ask how many doubloons it took?  

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7 minutes ago, buglips said:

Do you mind if I ask how many doubloons it took?  

Sorry but I no longer give amounts as I have taken too much flak in the past for spending on the game. I keep what I spend private now. 

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22 minutes ago, IfYouSeeKhaos said:

 

Therein lies a major issue...only AP was nerfed against DDs in every other line & HE still does full damage against DDs...even the RN BBs which usually have HE loaded 80+% of the time...

A BB that has only a 1/10th damage potential no matter what is loaded against a charging DD is the equivalent of bait...unless you got a crew w/you you're gonna be eating fishies every battle w/no way to even slightly discourage it.

50% instead of 20-30% would be fair...they need to be able to not only defend but actually be able to hunt DDs after the DDs torps pass by & the DD smokes up nearby (or get themselves trapped in a corner)...just like any other BB can just by switching to HE.

Having only a flat 10% damage option against them is ludicrous (heard about it when announced but never gave it a serious thought until now).

The answer I got from Crysantos on this question I had on a recent stream was that the SAP alpha is still higher than the AP alpha. Vittorio Veneto's SAP has 12,5k max damage, AP 12k max. Go figure....

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3 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The answer I got from Crysantos on this question I had on a recent stream was that the SAP alpha is still higher than the AP alpha. Vittorio Veneto's SAP has 12,5k max damage, AP 12k max. Go figure....

So 50% would put it in the range of standard HE equivalent...or even a bit lower still in some cases.

But it does have a sure to damage from any angle that might need to be toned down to the 30% you suggested earlier for balance...but 10% is way too low considering it makes any ordinance it has have no chance to do any meaningful damage (as in other BBs HE damage meaningful).

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8 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

The answer I got from Crysantos on this question I had on a recent stream was that the SAP alpha is still higher than the AP alpha. Vittorio Veneto's SAP has 12,5k max damage, AP 12k max. Go figure....

Could be 125,000 Alpha and wouldn't matter. Got to hit stuff first and that is very iffy with these

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42 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Sorry but I no longer give amounts as I have taken too much flak in the past for spending on the game. I keep what I spend private now. 

That's fair.  Anyway, I realized I could just go math out how much it would take me to do it assuming worst case RNG and minus dubs already sitting around.  

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Also the concern of bad AA is a historical thing.  The Axis navies were notoriously bad in AA.  The Allied navies had to get good in AA because they conducted lots of offensive operations putting them into the range of land based aircraft.  Out in the Pacific, you had the added threat of IJN Carriers.  So yeah, they had to get good in AA.

 

The Italian navy in particular suffered terribly from Radar and the threat of Air Power.

48 minutes ago, AdmiralThunder said:

Sorry but I no longer give amounts as I have taken too much flak in the past for spending on the game. I keep what I spend private now. 

You can do what I do and tell people to go pound sand, in various colorful ways.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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2 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

So as I always do with these early access events I charged ahead and finished the week 1 tasks,  purchased bundles, etc... to get right through what was needed to get the early access stuff (ships, camo, flags, coal, FXP, etc...). Honestly I had very little to no interest in this line as I feared it would be a whole line of Roma's as I followed along with the info WG released on them. I absolutely detest Roma so a whole line of them = yuck.

However, as I always do every line to T10 whether I like the ships or not (always good to have diversified fleet for mission tasks, flake events, etc...) I decided to whale what I could and avoid having to grind ships I expected not to like (the use of my Doubloon hoard was well worth it to avoid having to grind out this line other than the T10). Good decision as it turns out. :Smile_veryhappy: OMG do these new BB's define MEH! Just so bad and they truly do feel, for the most part, like a line of Roma's (same flaws and such) that just have SAP instead of HE. :fish_palm:

Will give a brief review of the T5/T6/T8/T9 below after a few general line comments. The T4 came out even earlier as a Twitch reward and has been discussed so not wasting time on that. The T7 is the reward for finishing all the Part 1 4 Week Directives so need to wait on that. But I can talk about the others FWIW to anyone reading...

General:

  • SAP - I am NOT impressed. It has worked pretty good on the Italian Cruisers but honestly it seems pretty lackluster on the BB's. Why? It should be monstrous but frankly it is pretty disappointing even vs DD's. Did WG do a last second nerf to it or something? Don't know but the BB's do less damage with SAP than the Cruisers do. It has just been very poor so far. 
  • AP - Weak!
  • Reloads - Too :etc_swear: long on most
  • Armor - Squishy squishy squishy. Nuff said.
  • AA - abysmal (even by current standards) and even useless vs Bot CV's. It is THAT bad. Even on the couple with somewhat average AA  the poor Italian range makes it useless.
  • Secondary's - the ONE thing that was a surprise and actually somewhat decent when I expected crap. While the 90MM ones have very poor pen there are a lot of them and they fire quite fast. They seem to do a decent job setting fires as well. The 120MM/135MM/152MM ones have ok pen and a reasonable ROF.  For "Co-op" where secondary builds are still viable they are "ok". Accuracy is pretty bad of course.
  • Main Gun Accuracy - ATROCIOUS! Couldn't hit a barn if the ship was inside of said barn while shooting. And that is with extremely short main gun range as well so you miss even when close.  The shells just go everywhere. Looks like a flock of pigeons in the park that got spooked and scatter into flight in all directions when you shoot. Once in a while you get a decent pattern but usually it is all over the place.
  • Overpens/Shatters/Bounces - just like with Roma this issue plagues the new Tech Tree BB's. SAP shatters and bounces a lot with no damage and the AP just overpens non stop.
  • Struggle to finish ships off. Even when you get a big hit these are not Dev Strike BB's. SAP isn't going to citadel outside of rare hits on extremely lightly armored CL's (and mainly lower tiers) and the AP is pretty weak damage wise with a tendency to overpen. So actually killing stuff unless it is already almost dead is hard in these. 
  • For all the people who blasted the new US BB's in the split at least they have good guns and some other good features to offset the bad (reload and speed). There is very little good really with these new Italian BB's (IMHO - YMMV)

As to each ship specifically...


T5 Conte Di Cavour:

Only 1 game in it and 1 game was enough. This is a port queen for flake events and any tasks where it would specifically help me do it easier and/or quicker. Sort of an average game for a T5 BB stat wise but it was mostly bots, and the game went almost the full 20 mins, so 58K and just 1 kill is nothing special. I even managed a 43% MBHR ( actually got close so even it couldn't miss) and still only got 58K damage which shows how poorly the shells perform if you do hit. This appears to be a Giulio Cesare without the accuracy (it is putrid) and with much less maneuverability.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - very tough bow in
  • 33 sec reload is too long
  • Brutal turret traverse (60 sec base)
  • Totally useless AA
  • Secondary guns are half way decent (18X1 120MM w/ 20MM pen and 6.8km possible range). Pretty good actually for a T5.
  • Lackluster maneuverability. Handles like a US Standard BB. 1 knot faster but less maneuverability (22knots/620m turn radius/12 sec rudder).
  • Concealment is ok (11.8km with CE)

Just a meh ship overall.

yTTfo9t.jpg


T6 Andrea Doria:

So far this one seems like it might be the best of the bunch (not counting T7 or T10 as no experience there yet). Only 1 game like the T5 but it actually went well and the ship felt like it might be halfway decent? Just RNG throwing me a bone or might it actually be a bright spot of the line? This ship is not the IRL Andrea Doria Italian BB. It is some kind of ship WG has made and called that (I believe they said based on upgrades made - proposed? - to the Conte Di Cavour class). Feels like a T6 Giulio Cesare with improved secondary.  This seems better than the T6  test ship WG used when looking at moving GC to T6 (it is an improved/buffed GC vs just putting GC at T6). 1 game was 81K with a kill in T7 MM.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - somewhat tanky bow in but not great and if the 26MM plates, instead of the 90MM strip, is hit you can be overmatched by 380MM+.
  • More reasonable 30 sec reload
  • Good turret traverse (36 sec base)
  • Not great but somewhat useable AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are "ok" (10X1 90MM + 4X3 135MM and 7.5km possible range). The 90MM are only fire starters but the 135MM's have enough pen and ROF to do damage.
  • Maneuverability is adequate. Nothing special but workable. It is the same as GC (27 knots w/ 640MM turn radius) but with an improved rudder vs GC (10.4 sec vs 13.0 sec).
  • Concealment is average.

Not an amazing ship but it seems 'ok" and better than the others I have played.

xL1KkuK.jpg


T8 Vittorio Veneto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

UGH! GAG! PUKE! It's Roma. Same hull, armor, guns, etc... Only real difference is Roma has HE that sucks and VV has SAP that is just slightly better than sucks. VV gets a 34 sec reload vs 30 sec on Roma for the privilege of that slightly better than sucks SAP. AP is just overpen overpen overpen overpen...ad nauseum. Couple other minor differences in stats but they are minor tweaks not major changes. 3 games in it and about the same stats as Roma (117 games). Not going over any pros/cons as like I said it's Roma with SAP and a little longer reload. ONE thing that is better on VV is the secondary guns. Same guns and #'s as on Roma but the 90MM's fire a bit faster and the 152MM's fire significantly faster so that is actually a big plus over Roma.

This ship is Roma and all the suck and bad that comes with it. And I swear I feel like that Roman standard mounted on the special camo is going to poke my eye out every time I play it the things ticks up so high (not as high on T9 :fish_palm:).

tFQmHmV.jpg


T9 Lepanto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

Had some small sliver of hope for this one but nope; it stinks too. It's Roma's big brother. Just meh in almost all ways. 4 games in it and pretty much Roma stats. Guns are horrendous as far as accuracy goes and are plagued with the classic Italian AP overpen overpen overpen overpen issue. 12X guns with SAP can do a little damage if you land some shells. Still not great but best SAP ship so far. 

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side although improved on overall from VV/Roma. Still squishy and takes a lot of damage but you can angle and tank some bow in.
  • LONG reload requiring MBM3 to get it down to 32.6 sec.
  • Good turret traverse (34.5 sec base)
  • Average AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are a slight step up from VV/Roma. Same stats gun types just a couple more of them. 12X2 90MM (fire starters only) and 6X3 152MM.
  • Maneuverability is kind of below average or just pushing into average. Lower end for T9 BB speed (29.5 knots) and turn radius (910MM) and above average rudder (13.3 sec).
  • Concealment is slightly below average at 13.4km.

This will be a long and miserable grind getting the XP needed for the T10. The T10 isn't due out until update 0.10.3 which is 2 down the road but not sure I can do the grind needed even with that much time? This might be a FXP to skip some/all of the grind ship?

Vmjg3Lv.jpg


So as said ^^^ FWIW and YMMV. 

These new BB's are exactly what I feared they would be = a whole line of Roma suckage. :fish_panic::fish_palm:

And, this is the future of this game.....  MEH.    They have abandoned spending anything and are just going through the motions to keep the game running.  The only way that will change is if we all stop spending......  "Doing the same thing, over and over again and expecting a 'different outcome' is the definition of................"

This game has nothing left to give.......the mature game cycle has crested and now, it's nothing but "station keeping"..........  It was a great game......

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I didn't think they'd be my cup of tea, but they don't have to be, and I will keep a them around for events.

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I'm delighted, I don't even care how they perform.  Italian cruisers brought me in, and I still love those even though most of them are dog turds playwise.  Now I'm getting IT BBs at last, after a year of line splits and paper designs I didn't care about.  

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Regarding accuracy, Roma has long been reviled because of her inconsistent gunnery.  She is a 1.8 Sigma BB.  For PVP, it seems Roma users like her better now with Dead Eye.  But over here in Co-Op, the value of Dead Eye isn't there because most of the fighting is brawling in this mode of play.  If you try to emphasize Dead Eye in Co-Op, you're in the backline and not getting sh*t for damage while all the other guys claim the damage and kills as they were knife fighting.

 

Again, a lot of these ITA BBs coming out are 1.6 Sigma.  For PVP they're Dead Eye candidates all the way.  For Co-Op, well...

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6 hours ago, AdmiralThunder said:

So as I always do with these early access events I charged ahead and finished the week 1 tasks,  purchased bundles, etc... to get right through what was needed to get the early access stuff (ships, camo, flags, coal, FXP, etc...). Honestly I had very little to no interest in this line as I feared it would be a whole line of Roma's as I followed along with the info WG released on them. I absolutely detest Roma so a whole line of them = yuck.

However, as I always do every line to T10 whether I like the ships or not (always good to have diversified fleet for mission tasks, flake events, etc...) I decided to whale what I could and avoid having to grind ships I expected not to like (the use of my Doubloon hoard was well worth it to avoid having to grind out this line other than the T10). Good decision as it turns out. :Smile_veryhappy: OMG do these new BB's define MEH! Just so bad and they truly do feel, for the most part, like a line of Roma's (same flaws and such) that just have SAP instead of HE. :fish_palm:

Will give a brief review of the T5/T6/T8/T9 below after a few general line comments. The T4 came out even earlier as a Twitch reward and has been discussed so not wasting time on that. The T7 is the reward for finishing all the Part 1 4 Week Directives so need to wait on that. But I can talk about the others FWIW to anyone reading...

General:

  • SAP - I am NOT impressed. It has worked pretty good on the Italian Cruisers but honestly it seems pretty lackluster on the BB's. Why? It should be monstrous but frankly it is pretty disappointing even vs DD's. Did WG do a last second nerf to it or something? Don't know but the BB's do less damage with SAP than the Cruisers do. It has just been very poor so far. 
  • AP - Weak!
  • Reloads - Too :etc_swear: long on most
  • Armor - Squishy squishy squishy. Nuff said.
  • AA - abysmal (even by current standards) and even useless vs Bot CV's. It is THAT bad. Even on the couple with somewhat average AA  the poor Italian range makes it useless.
  • Secondary's - the ONE thing that was a surprise and actually somewhat decent when I expected crap. While the 90MM ones have very poor pen there are a lot of them and they fire quite fast. They seem to do a decent job setting fires as well. The 120MM/135MM/152MM ones have ok pen and a reasonable ROF.  For "Co-op" where secondary builds are still viable they are "ok". Accuracy is pretty bad of course.
  • Main Gun Accuracy - ATROCIOUS! Couldn't hit a barn if the ship was inside of said barn while shooting. And that is with extremely short main gun range as well so you miss even when close.  The shells just go everywhere. Looks like a flock of pigeons in the park that got spooked and scatter into flight in all directions when you shoot. Once in a while you get a decent pattern but usually it is all over the place.
  • Overpens/Shatters/Bounces - just like with Roma this issue plagues the new Tech Tree BB's. SAP shatters and bounces a lot with no damage and the AP just overpens non stop.
  • Struggle to finish ships off. Even when you get a big hit these are not Dev Strike BB's. SAP isn't going to citadel outside of rare hits on extremely lightly armored CL's (and mainly lower tiers) and the AP is pretty weak damage wise with a tendency to overpen. So actually killing stuff unless it is already almost dead is hard in these. 
  • For all the people who blasted the new US BB's in the split at least they have good guns and some other good features to offset the bad (reload and speed). There is very little good really with these new Italian BB's (IMHO - YMMV)

As to each ship specifically...


T5 Conte Di Cavour:

Only 1 game in it and 1 game was enough. This is a port queen for flake events and any tasks where it would specifically help me do it easier and/or quicker. Sort of an average game for a T5 BB stat wise but it was mostly bots, and the game went almost the full 20 mins, so 58K and just 1 kill is nothing special. I even managed a 43% MBHR ( actually got close so even it couldn't miss) and still only got 58K damage which shows how poorly the shells perform if you do hit. This appears to be a Giulio Cesare without the accuracy (it is putrid) and with much less maneuverability.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - very tough bow in
  • 33 sec reload is too long
  • Brutal turret traverse (60 sec base)
  • Totally useless AA
  • Secondary guns are half way decent (18X1 120MM w/ 20MM pen and 6.8km possible range). Pretty good actually for a T5.
  • Lackluster maneuverability. Handles like a US Standard BB. 1 knot faster but less maneuverability (22knots/620m turn radius/12 sec rudder).
  • Concealment is ok (11.8km with CE)

Just a meh ship overall.

yTTfo9t.jpg


T6 Andrea Doria:

So far this one seems like it might be the best of the bunch (not counting T7 or T10 as no experience there yet). Only 1 game like the T5 but it actually went well and the ship felt like it might be halfway decent? Just RNG throwing me a bone or might it actually be a bright spot of the line? This ship is not the IRL Andrea Doria Italian BB. It is some kind of ship WG has made and called that (I believe they said based on upgrades made - proposed? - to the Conte Di Cavour class). Feels like a T6 Giulio Cesare with improved secondary.  This seems better than the T6  test ship WG used when looking at moving GC to T6 (it is an improved/buffed GC vs just putting GC at T6). 1 game was 81K with a kill in T7 MM.

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side - somewhat tanky bow in but not great and if the 26MM plates, instead of the 90MM strip, is hit you can be overmatched by 380MM+.
  • More reasonable 30 sec reload
  • Good turret traverse (36 sec base)
  • Not great but somewhat useable AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are "ok" (10X1 90MM + 4X3 135MM and 7.5km possible range). The 90MM are only fire starters but the 135MM's have enough pen and ROF to do damage.
  • Maneuverability is adequate. Nothing special but workable. It is the same as GC (27 knots w/ 640MM turn radius) but with an improved rudder vs GC (10.4 sec vs 13.0 sec).
  • Concealment is average.

Not an amazing ship but it seems 'ok" and better than the others I have played.

xL1KkuK.jpg


T8 Vittorio Veneto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

UGH! GAG! PUKE! It's Roma. Same hull, armor, guns, etc... Only real difference is Roma has HE that sucks and VV has SAP that is just slightly better than sucks. VV gets a 34 sec reload vs 30 sec on Roma for the privilege of that slightly better than sucks SAP. AP is just overpen overpen overpen overpen...ad nauseum. Couple other minor differences in stats but they are minor tweaks not major changes. 3 games in it and about the same stats as Roma (117 games). Not going over any pros/cons as like I said it's Roma with SAP and a little longer reload. ONE thing that is better on VV is the secondary guns. Same guns and #'s as on Roma but the 90MM's fire a bit faster and the 152MM's fire significantly faster so that is actually a big plus over Roma.

This ship is Roma and all the suck and bad that comes with it. And I swear I feel like that Roman standard mounted on the special camo is going to poke my eye out every time I play it the things ticks up so high (not as high on T9 :fish_palm:).

tFQmHmV.jpg


T9 Lepanto: (w/ LEGION Perma Camo)

Had some small sliver of hope for this one but nope; it stinks too. It's Roma's big brother. Just meh in almost all ways. 4 games in it and pretty much Roma stats. Guns are horrendous as far as accuracy goes and are plagued with the classic Italian AP overpen overpen overpen overpen issue. 12X guns with SAP can do a little damage if you land some shells. Still not great but best SAP ship so far. 

  • Very weak/suspect armor from the side although improved on overall from VV/Roma. Still squishy and takes a lot of damage but you can angle and tank some bow in.
  • LONG reload requiring MBM3 to get it down to 32.6 sec.
  • Good turret traverse (34.5 sec base)
  • Average AA. Like all Italian ships though the range is really poor (4.6km).
  • Secondary guns are a slight step up from VV/Roma. Same stats gun types just a couple more of them. 12X2 90MM (fire starters only) and 6X3 152MM.
  • Maneuverability is kind of below average or just pushing into average. Lower end for T9 BB speed (29.5 knots) and turn radius (910MM) and above average rudder (13.3 sec).
  • Concealment is slightly below average at 13.4km.

This will be a long and miserable grind getting the XP needed for the T10. The T10 isn't due out until update 0.10.3 which is 2 down the road but not sure I can do the grind needed even with that much time? This might be a FXP to skip some/all of the grind ship?

Vmjg3Lv.jpg


So as said ^^^ FWIW and YMMV. 

These new BB's are exactly what I feared they would be = a whole line of Roma suckage. :fish_panic::fish_palm:

Well, the RNG smiled on me and I went to the head of the line and got the Lepanto on my third random bundle.  I got one battle in (Coop), and did some decent damage.  I have it posted in the Best Games in Coop thread in the PVE Content forum.

I agree with Admiral on a few things:

I was not impressed with the SAP either.  I got a few 15k+ salvos, but many were less than 5k (with multiple hits).  It did seem to me that the Cruisers did it better.

The AP was on the weak side, which led me to having a hard time finishing a BB off.  In fact, I got killed by a long range Musashi salvo while trying to kill a Minnesota.

The secondaries surprised me as well.  I got over 100 hits and 14k damage.

Main Gun Accuracy - for some reason, Roma seems to do a little above average for me, and this battle in Lepanto followed the same pattern.  Some shots nicely surrounded my target without hitting anything but water, and some landed all over the red ship.  There were a lot of 'not a lot of damage totals' on those big hits totals.  I did manager 185k damage.

Manuveuring wasn't great, but it wasn't bad either. 

And I will disagree on a few things:

I like my Roma.  :)

I was able to tank a good bit of Potential Damage, but I need more matches to say it is not squishy.

Not sure if the AA is abysmal - I managed to shoot down 38 planes.

This ship has one huge advantage over the USN Line split - this ship can move.  The top speed is over 27 knots - my dividing line for BBs - without any flags.

 

A few other things to note after having picking on Admiral's post:

I always enjoyed the RM navy, so I am looking forward to this ship and the Colombo.  I will be taking it out for more battles tomorrow and I will see how it goes.

I did NOT play any of the lower tier ships (I will not even try for any of them) as I usually only play T9 - T10 Tech Tree ships, with a few others here and there, so I did not suffer through any lower tier poor ships.  I am hoping that this line follows the previous 3-4 lines in that T9 is a good ship and the T10 is a beast.  Time will tell.

 

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The French 380mm AP shell is powerful for its size.  The Italian 381mm AP is even better.

shot-21-02-06-11-55-38-0174.jpg

 

Tier VIII-X ITA BBs use the same shell for their 381mm guns.

All FR Battleships Tier VIII-X that use the 380mm gun use the same shell, including fancy schmancy Tier X Bourgogne.

 

These are not weak shells.  Maybe if one has only been using Yamato, Shikashima, Thunderer, or some other super large gun BB, but the Italian & French 381mm / 380mm AP is very strong, competing even with 16" armed Battleship AP shells.

 

That's the truth.  You don't have to like it, but that's what it is.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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The one real failing of these ITA BB guns is accuracy.  1.6 Sigma coupled with French / Old German BB Dispersion is not a good combination.

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I can only speak of the Tier 4, bloody awful dispersion, disappointing damage when you do hit. Bit like shooting rocksalt from a shotgun at range, stings a bit but ain't gonna knock them down.

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I was going to compare how my ITA BBs stacked in performance compared to my older BBs.  Then I realized even my own personal stats aren't suitable for that.  Can't compare it to older ship stats because the numbers attained with the old ships were from the old, Pre-Skill Rebork era.  For example, it's a pretty d*mn big difference in how my Brawler BBs' secondaries behaved compared to now.  Super Cruiser Alaska, Kronshtadt, etc. were running Survival Builds, etc.

4 minutes ago, Efros said:

I can only speak of the Tier 4, bloody awful dispersion, disappointing damage when you do hit. Bit like shooting rocksalt from a shotgun at range, stings a bit but ain't gonna knock them down.

Interestingly there's been zero discussion in "General Discussion" subforum about the ITA BBs.  Usually when there's an Early Access event going on or a new Line releases, there's threads about them, people wanting to get info, opinions, etc.

 

Yeah, sure we got these threads in PVE subforum, but we're in the minority here and General Discussion gets all the traffic.

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