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Soshi_Sone

More Deadeye Observations

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This skill makes average/poor players play worse, and even some good players as well.  I had a couple of games this weekend where the brawler that I am pushed up on a flank that was...upon push up...a beehive of reds.  Now...what's a brawler to do?  Brawl?  No...you run like hell.  Kite.  Survive.  Delay.  There I was, literally engaging in a kite of SIX enemy ships in my Biz.  Well, I had a DD friend doing his part slowing them down...but it is was basically six on two for 8 minutes of game play.

On the other side of the map, ten on six.  And what were our ten doing.  Sitting comfortably at range exchanging salvos with the reds.  But it wasn't even much of an exchange because the reds were mostly hiding behind rocks.  I came up in chat a few minutes in, once the odds on the flanks were obvious, and requested a push on that flank.  Nope....everyone happy to sit back and snipe targets of opportunity...while me and my DD friend kept up the kite...we collectively succumb'd about eight minutes in.  

And our remaining team?  Still exchanging pea shots at an enemy half their size.  Game was essentially over at that moment and I doubt anyone on that flank realized it.  They got flanked and rolled.

Now, I've seen this happen before the new captain skills came out.  So it's nothing new to the game.  What's new, is I get the feeling this is now happening MORE due to the Deadeye skill and the nerf on secondaries.  Everyone sitting in their Deadeye comfort zone and no one wishing to push up.

These skill deltas do NOT replace basic map awareness and the need to understand force mix and relative strengths on flanks.  Just the opposite.  They make those skills all the more important.  

Skills simply don't replace sound strategic and tactical understandings of the game.  I'll overcome it.  Still gotta play with the team MM hands you.  Just an observation from the weekend play. 

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Spreadsheet says working as designed!

You are right that this behavior was more or less in place before the skill rework but the new Deadeye skill has brought the behavior to the fore of most conversations. How do you wake those people up?

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27 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

This skill makes average/poor players play worse, and even some good players as well.  I had a couple of games this weekend where the brawler that I am pushed up on a flank that was...upon push up...a beehive of reds.  Now...what's a brawler to do?  Brawl?  No...you run like hell.  Kite.  Survive.  Delay.  There I was, literally engaging in a kite of SIX enemy ships in my Biz.  Well, I had a DD friend doing his part slowing them down...but it is was basically six on two for 8 minutes of game play.

On the other side of the map, ten on six.  And what were our ten doing.  Sitting comfortably at range exchanging salvos with the reds.  But it wasn't even much of an exchange because the reds were mostly hiding behind rocks.  I came up in chat a few minutes in, once the odds on the flanks were obvious, and requested a push on that flank.  Nope....everyone happy to sit back and snipe targets of opportunity...while me and my DD friend kept up the kite...we collectively succumb'd about eight minutes in.  

And our remaining team?  Still exchanging pea shots at an enemy half their size.  Game was essentially over at that moment and I doubt anyone on that flank realized it.  They got flanked and rolled.

Now, I've seen this happen before the new captain skills came out.  So it's nothing new to the game.  What's new, is I get the feeling this is now happening MORE due to the Deadeye skill and the nerf on secondaries.  Everyone sitting in their Deadeye comfort zone and no one wishing to push up.

These skill deltas do NOT replace basic map awareness and the need to understand force mix and relative strengths on flanks.  Just the opposite.  They make those skills all the more important.  

Skills simply don't replace sound strategic and tactical understandings of the game.  I'll overcome it.  Still gotta play with the team MM hands you.  Just an observation from the weekend play. 

For once, total agreement.

The sledghammer to secondaries have ruined the game for me on par with the CV Rework vomited on us over a year ago.  I rarely play anymore.   I saw you post on secondaries with 156 hits.    That was a BAD game for me before.  If I went into a match in Mass, Tirp, Biz or Ga,,, I expected to be getting 300+ secondary hits per game and 20-40k damage.  That's what brawling was about.  Not anymore!!  

Now, people spend 4 pts on Dead Eye and refuse to push and lose this ability.  And heaven forbid a DD or cruiser get within their base detection range, those SOBs will turn around and head further away from the fray. 

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37 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

What's new, is I get the feeling this is now happening MORE due to the Deadeye skill

It's given cowards an excuse. "I can't push in or my accuracy will suffer!"

They can all go pick their noses with a burning Kawachi.

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I watched a very good player on his stream, give up shots he'd have taken before the patch just for deadeye to activate. He was detected and had a broadside Minotaur and waited to go undetected and fire at another target. Then commented about being spotted was negating the deadeye skill- by the Minotaur.

It's bad for the game and that has nothing to do with the 10% dispersion buff.

Edited by Wye_So_Serious

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I'd be really interested to see the affect deadeye has had on overall accuracy for people who where not very accurate prior to the rework.   I would imagine tighter groups would increase the missed shots for those not proficient at leading and aiming. 

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3 minutes ago, Wye_So_Serious said:

I watched a very good player on his stream, give up shots he'd have taken before the patch just for deadeye to activate. He was detected and had a broadside Minotaur and waited to go undetected and fire at another target. Then commented about being spotted was negating the deadeye skill- by the Minotaur.

It's bad for the game and that has nothing to do with the 10% dispersion buff.

... Is he aware that Deadeye doesn't care if you're being spotted or not?

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2 minutes ago, HallaSnackbar said:

I'd be really interested to see the affect deadeye has had on overall accuracy for people who where not very accurate prior to the rework.   I would imagine tighter groups would increase the missed shots for those not proficient at leading and aiming. 

You're probably not wrong. Most of the people hiding their camping behaviour behind it are probably not good enough to use it anyway. If they were actually smacking enemies like the Hammer of God, people wouldn't be whining so much about the hanging-back part.

1 minute ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

... Is he aware that Deadeye doesn't care if you're being spotted or not?

Yeah, you have to wonder. 

I'm tempted to keep on grossly overusing a YT vid of a battle I fought over the weekend. I had deadeye on the ship (Minnesota), but most of my best work was done under circumstances in which the skill is completely inactive. I put it up partly to show off (because who wouldn't? I got a Kraken and 180K-plus damage!) and as an example of refusing to quit (I was alone against three enemy BBs), but also to demonstrate that you can't always stay at long range and expect to win.

IDK, maybe I don't fall for Deadeye's trap because I'm predominantly a co-op player and I've got no hesitation about getting in close, but refusing a shot against a broadside Mino just because your deadeye skill is negated comes across to me as the epitome of petulant tantrum-throwing. At that point, one tends to lose my respect.

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44 minutes ago, SoothingWhaleSongEU said:

... Is he aware that Deadeye doesn't care if you're being spotted or not?

That's the point, he waited for the skill the activate instead of taking the shot on the Minotaur. Had he eliminated the Minotaur earlier he would not have been spotted later.

Someone else was spotting the Mino earlier.

Edited by Wye_So_Serious

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1 hour ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Now, I've seen this happen before the new captain skills came out.  So it's nothing new to the game.  What's new, is I get the feeling this is now happening MORE due to the Deadeye skill and the nerf on secondaries.  Everyone sitting in their Deadeye comfort zone and no one wishing to push up.

These skill deltas do NOT replace basic map awareness and the need to understand force mix and relative strengths on flanks.  Just the opposite.  They make those skills all the more important.  

Skills simply don't replace sound strategic and tactical understandings of the game.  I'll overcome it.  Still gotta play with the team MM hands you.  Just an observation from the weekend play. 

Deadeye is not giving any ship any sudden, significant/dramatic improvement on their accuracy...not even Vermont or Slava or even Thunderer which are the most accurate long range ships get it. Just look at Yamato as a great example..it has the highest dispersion reduction total once deadeye is factored in (-dispersion module, legendary upgrade, deadeye).... and are you seeing Yamatos suddenly slaying and landing citadels noticeably more than before? Heck no. Not even Slava with all its bias accuracy built in is suddenly OP beyond its already OP state. 

The problems the game has now is because the secondaries were nerfed plus the cruisers lost a lot of their survival skillsets. The Thunderer horde is just a temporary surge based on many people buying it before it leaves the armory.... and we would be having identical fire-related whines if it had been a horde of conquerors. 

Without survival skills, cruisers are now forced to camp islands even more. Without secondaries skills the BB lines that are hard to citadel (French, German) cannot push forward...the secondaries were the equivalent of a cruiser or two 'helping' them as they push. Soviet ships alone stand unaffected but they cannot push solo and with cruisers hiding far back and no secondary BB's to push alongside them ...they become HE spam targets and burnt down quickly. 

It is a FACT we will have the same surge and whine fest when Italian BBs come in and the Colombo becomes the next ship to whine about...especially when it is able to obliterate near full health, bow-on Kremlins in one or 2 salvos of its BB SAP...or land 40k to 50k salvos on a red BB from any range at almost any angle. 

 

It is true basic map awareness and strategic positioning of ships based on their capabilities is extremely important. I cannot tell you how many battles in my Vermont I get kiddies yelling and crying about the 'Vermont in the far back doing nothing' ... as I sit 20km from red ships with 3 kills, 10 citadels and 210k damage built up before mid-battle timer, at the map center, supporting the team's efforts on both sides...and most of that damage is from knowing where the cruisers will camp and hug an island and my ship can hit them with high-arc shells from afar (if under 15km they won't arc much).

Every ship in the game has a role. Sadly, the way WG designed the game, said ships are not being rewarded for doing that role but rather for just dealing raw damage. Destroyers are the scouts and torpedo-attackers yet there is little to no reward for spotting and torpedo damage is relatively unreliable and is slow to come in... so DD's end up gunboating and lemming-capping because capturing a single flag point , doing a tiny amount of damage and drying early in the game rewards as much as staying alive and doing 100k worth of damage. Cruisers largely ignore destroyers when spotted because they are very little damage to add up to their totals..not when there are red BBs 10km further away they can HE spam and farm and rack up the damage. 

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