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_Thanagor_

It's time to update turret traverse speed for all ships

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It is reasonable to think that the current turret traverse speed for all ships were set to work with the old Expert Marksman skill. The old skill makes the guns of some of the ships, for example Yamato, Minekaze, or Pensacola, so much more usable. However now, the new skill, Grease the Gears, does very little to help the slow guns. 

I like the idea that a skill gives a relative improvement on some attribute, but the base turret traverse speed should be updated. Ideally, if a gun's speed with Grease the Gears can be the same as it did with Expert Marksman, that would be great. Slower guns are still slower, but now taking the skill will mean something.

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Personally I would be fine with this, but really that's because I rather like the idea of baking in all the % based captain skills into ships, leaving such differences with upgrades.

Then instead have maybe fewer captain skills that focus on doing different things other than % increases. It would make it easier for WG to design and tweak a smaller number of skills rather than a horde, many of which are somewhat uninspiring with a handful of "obvious" big impact ones.

But WG clearly didn't want to do this because, they didn't.

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As I’ve mentioned in a few posts, the new skill, “Sand in my gears” has really messed up some of my mid-tier DDs, mostly Russian & German. Some of them are almost unplayable IMO. 

Heck, my Gremy’s 180 deg. Turret traverse is over 26 seconds. I get better performance in my Lenin! That’s just not right...

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I'd imagine it's easier and cleaner from a balance perspective to just update the skill so that it offers a bifurcated bonus based on gun caliber (i.e. guns under XXX caliber get a fixed % traverse rate bonus, guns over XXX caliber get a fixed degrees per second bonus or traverse time % reduction), than it would be to adjust the traverse rates across many ships. 

I'm guessing that the design of this skill was originally done with the intention that it NOT scale well for some rational reason, however I cannot figure out why they would want to do that given how the old Expert Marksman skill worked and the fact that it didn't appear to cause any balance issues. 

The nice thing is, that given how the skill trees are now split up by ship type WG can fine tune this skill to each ship type which IMHO reduces the chances of introducing balance problems. 

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1 hour ago, cgbosn4 said:

As I’ve mentioned in a few posts, the new skill, “Sand in my gears” has really messed up some of my mid-tier DDs, mostly Russian & German. Some of them are almost unplayable IMO. 

Heck, my Gremy’s 180 deg. Turret traverse is over 26 seconds. I get better performance in my Lenin! That’s just not right...

It's bad when red team is waiting for your turrets to come around and they taunt you with: "come on, I will wait. swing them around, I ordered a pizza."

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Gosh, yes please! Even with improved GTG my Gremy made me wanna go outside the ship and start pushing those guns. Russian DDs are rather frustrating to play as a result.

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5 hours ago, _Thanagor_ said:

It is reasonable to think that the current turret traverse speed for all ships were set to work with the old Expert Marksman skill. The old skill makes the guns of some of the ships, for example Yamato, Minekaze, or Pensacola, so much more usable. However now, the new skill, Grease the Gears, does very little to help the slow guns. 

I like the idea that a skill gives a relative improvement on some attribute, but the base turret traverse speed should be updated. Ideally, if a gun's speed with Grease the Gears can be the same as it did with Expert Marksman, that would be great. Slower guns are still slower, but now taking the skill will mean something.

So you would also like all the reload skills to be based on a flat rate rather than a percentage? Let's give cruisers a 1 second reload buff skill, mostly negligible on Stalingrad and utterly broken on smolensk. 

They changed the skill and it affects ships differently, but at least the way they have it now makes more sense to less knowledgeable players. 

Also, while we are at it, let's make CE a flat 2 km buff to concealment, who cares whether it's a BB or a dd.

Edited by DuckyShot
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15 minutes ago, DuckyShot said:

So you would also like all the reload skills to be based on a flat rate rather than a percentage? Let's give cruisers a 1 second reload buff skill, mostly negligible on Stalingrad and utterly broken on smolensk. 

They changed the skill and it affects ships differently, but at least the way they have it now makes more sense to less knowledgeable players. 

Also, while we are at it, let's make CE a flat 2 km buff to concealment, who cares whether it's a BB or a dd.

I don't believe that WG has to do things like that anymore given the separation of the skill trees, i.e. skill X in the DD tree can have a different effect than skill X in the BB tree, seems to me that's a big advantage with respect to skill changes going forward.

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17 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

I don't believe that WG has to do things like that anymore given the separation of the skill trees, i.e. skill X in the DD tree can have a different effect than skill X in the BB tree, seems to me that's a big advantage with respect to skill changes going forward.

No they don't, it was just a comparison showing the absurdity of hanging onto one skill that was a flat number instead of a percentage of the ships capability like most other skills. 

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1 minute ago, DuckyShot said:

No they don't, it was just a comparison showing the absurdity of hanging onto one skill that was a flat number instead of a percentage of the ships capability like most other skills. 

Gotcha, my point was that they could in the future have both a flat number for one ship type and a percentage for another if they deem such changes appropriate for balance and playability, I suppose we'll see. 

I find the possibilities for the new skill system very interesting. 

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8 minutes ago, DuckyShot said:

No they don't, it was just a comparison showing the absurdity of hanging onto one skill that was a flat number instead of a percentage of the ships capability like most other skills. 

There is no way to justify that ships with FASTER turret traverse should get a bigger boost from Grease The Gears, and ships with SLOWER turret traverse getting a smaller boost. It's just wrong, no matter how you look at it. It literally makes zero sense. And if you bring gun calibers into the equation, it STILL makes no sense how Kremlin's turret traverse is so much faster than Yamato's. Or how it's so much faster than California's, for instance. So don't even try with that argument. Grease The Gears is working in reverse, that can't be right. Expert Marksman's method of buffing should be maintained, OR as someone else said, make it a traverse time reduction instead.

Actually, DEFINITELY on the time reduction, I love it. Wow. It's SO much better AND easier to understand to boot.

Using California's Turrets as example:

60s -20% of that value (assuming the same value for Grease the Gears, but in reverse, and for direct traverse time reduction) = 48s turret traverse time, which is ACTUALLY SLIGHTLY faster than Expert Marksman AND definitely better than the 50s turret traverse we're getting right now with Grease the Gears.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon
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4 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

Gotcha, my point was that they could in the future have both a flat number for one ship type and a percentage for another if they deem such changes appropriate for balance and playability, I suppose we'll see. 

I find the possibilities for the new skill system very interesting. 

Problem solved with that one. Make it a reduction to turret traverse time. It's SO simple. God, I wish I came up with it first! XD

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2 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

There is no way to justify that ships with FASTER turret traverse should get a bigger boost from Grease The Gears, and ships with SLOWER turret traverse getting a smaller boost. It's just wrong, no matter how you look at it. It literally makes zero sense. And if you bring gun calibers into the equation, it STILL makes no sense how Kremlin's turret traverse is so much faster than Yamato's. Or how it's so much faster than California's, for instance. So don't even try with that argument. Grease The Gears is working in reverse, that can't be right. Expert Marksman's method of buffing should be maintained, OR as someone else said, make it a traverse time reduction instead.

I believe you're right; on the surface it doesn't make sense, however we can safely assume that it was done this way for a reason and that the reason wasn't capricious or irrational. 

The only reason that comes to mind for eliminating the scalability of this skill by changing it to a fixed % of traverse speed is if test data (or just straight up theory crafting) indicated that increasing the turret traverse too much for those ships on the slower end of the curve too much would make them unbalanced in certain combinations with other skills ? 

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3 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

I believe you're right; on the surface it doesn't make sense, however we can safely assume that it was done this way for a reason and that the reason wasn't capricious or irrational. 

The only reason that comes to mind for eliminating the scalability of this skill by changing it to a fixed % of traverse speed is if test data (or just straight up theory crafting) indicated that increasing the turret traverse too much for those ships on the slower end of the curve too much would make them unbalanced in certain combinations with other skills ? 

Yeah, but if THAT'S the case, and they want to keep things simple, you can't get any simpler than a direct -20% reduction to traverse time. Done, no conversion, basically no math, no nothing. It's amazing. AND effective!

I mean just look at this, let's use Musashi:

72s - 20% of that value = 57.6s

which is a SIGHT better than 60s traverse time flat!

Someone was complaining about Gremy? Let's see...

36s - 20% of that value = 28.8s, faster than 30s from Grease the Gears currently!!!

 

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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2 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

assume that it was done this way for a reason and that the reason wasn't capricious or irrational. 

You realize this is WG that we are talking about?

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19 minutes ago, SaiIor_Moon said:

Yeah, but if THAT'S the case, and they want to keep things simple, you can't get any simpler than a direct -20% reduction to traverse time. Done, no conversion, basically no math, no nothing. It's amazing. AND effective!

I mean just look at this, let's use Musashi:

72s - 20% of that value = 57.6s

which is a SIGHT better than 60s traverse time flat!

Someone was complaining about Gremy? Let's see...

36s - 20% of that value = 28.8s, faster than 30s from Grease the Gears currently!!!

 

You're assuming they "want to keep things simple", which really isn't an option since you have to consider not only all the variables involved but also how those variables interact with one another (e.g. combinations of the new skills on each ship), it wouldn't make sense to make changes simply because the Musashi Captain will enjoy a faster traverse time rather than a slower one,  they have to consider both balance and playability.

I remember reading somewhere that the skill changes are largely a live test since they didn't get sufficient participation to thoroughly test things in PTS as much as they would have liked, which if that's the case, means that it's possible (likely?) that a future change will come down the pipeline doing something similar to what you're suggesting. 

Edited by WaywardVariable

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17 minutes ago, WaywardVariable said:

You're assuming they "want to keep things simple", which really isn't an option since you have to consider not only all the variables involved but also how those variables interact with one another (e.g. combinations of the new skills on each ship), it wouldn't make sense to make changes simply because the Musashi Captain will enjoy a faster traverse time rather than a slower one,  they have to consider both balance and playability.

I remember reading somewhere that the skill changes are largely a live test since they didn't get sufficient participation to thoroughly test things in PTS as much as they would have liked, which if that's the case, means that it's possible (likely?) that a future change will come down the pipeline doing something similar to what you're suggesting. 

Well, here's hoping for the changes. All I know is that Grease the Gears is working bass-ackwards, and needs to be fixed. If they want to be complex, they can just use the +0.7 deg/s method OR if they want it simple, -20% turret traverse time reduction.

Of course, that's only ONE skill that needs fixing, ISBA is another, and Dead eye needs addressing in some fashion, guaranteed.

Edited by SaiIor_Moon

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I find any ship (some IJN DDs, German, etc) that has a turning rate that exceeds the guns turret speed to be very annoying to play.  It was also why I refused to use the Shima legendary upgrade because I got tired of torps not launching because you basically need to park the rudder and tubes in place to fire them.

 

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Cruiser-caliber guns got a nice buff with Grease-the-Gears replacing Expert Marksman.  Since 140mm+ Guns only got 0.7 degrees per second traverse improvement with EM, your base rate need only be 4.7 to get a bigger boost with GtG.  And it is now just a 1-point skill for cruisers.

Most battleships did not see much change, since the new skill is still 2 points in the BB tree, and the break-even point is 3.5 degrees per second base traverse, which is a common speed.  But yes, slow traverse ships like QE see their boost drop from 0.7 to 0.5 degrees per second.

A mixed bag for DDs since almost all who would have taken EM will get less benefit from GtG (break even point is 16.7), but at just 1point in the DD skill tree, it can find its way into more builds.  The German 15cm DD guns do get a nice boost with GtG, since they now go from 8 degrees per second to 9.2, vs only 8.7 with EM, and for one fewer skill point.

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On 2/12/2021 at 11:59 AM, cgbosn4 said:

As I’ve mentioned in a few posts, the new skill, “Sand in my gears” has really messed up some of my mid-tier DDs, mostly Russian & German. Some of them are almost unplayable IMO. 

Heck, my Gremy’s 180 deg. Turret traverse is over 26 seconds. I get better performance in my Lenin! That’s just not right...

well, realistically, Lenin can have, say, 500hp or 2000hp motor to rotate the turrets, while in DD you have no space nor power to do that, its manual turning. Maybe some kind of pedal, like in bycicle xD

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